Narcissism Part II

[bunny]

I won't ask whose and why, although I am interested. Obviously you are talking about people in your life who you are close to. I wonder if life-relationships can ever truly be enjoyed by anyone living like this? Having to live and relate in such a contrived manner.

I'm enjoying life a lot more by doing this. For me there is no contrivance. It's just a way of dealing with what life throws at me.

Here you are strategizing around their actual or perceived disorders and there they are probably strategizing around your actual or perceived disorders.

If they're strategizing around me, that is great. I hope they do.
 

I wonder if people can ever connect as real and open and eventually get somewhere together and wortwhile with this strategy, or do they just intend to continue relating for the purpose of trying to out-manouvre and out-smart each other. Get the upper-hand so-to-speak. Unfortunately someone always has to lose in that game.

I'm not trying to out-anything. I'm just trying to deal with people who are difficult.

bunny

[bunny]

Clarification,

I am saying that if a person labels their abuser a narcissist that is okay with me. Not if they label another poster a narcissist. That is not something I advocate.

bunny

[Anonymous]

"Nothing........is impermiable".

Should have ended with......"or absolute".

GFN

Brillaint, brilliant. 'Nuff said.

Labels are good to help us catagorize a certain behaviour type.

Labels are not so good if they are placed without proper consideration or unfairly. IMO. GFN also.

Oh, you just plain rock, GFN.

Onlyrenting:

NO ONE should ever be allowed to dismiss or minimize you because you suffer the symptoms of co-dependency. You may be handicapped in your interaction because of those symptoms, but that in no way minimizes your good intentions in your attempts to create bonds with others. Sometimes you are sucessful and sometimes not - I think the content (and, I admit, stubborness) of my essay-sish posts are an attempt to highlight the deep-down motive and need of the narcissists we know (they are human - not evil; they are not, in our adult lives,  more powerful than we are unless we submit willingly) as being the SAME as the deep-down motives of the rest of us - to be joined with others, to love and be loved, to be heard. The narcissist, just like us, has not been heard. We just express our confusion, disappointment and terror differently. If we are able to do so with greater sophistication, we should consider ourselves lucky...and realize that those others-more-impaired, in any category, took a bullet that we were fortuante enough to avoid.

This forgives no one and nothing for deeds done and undone. However, in understanding their humanity, you can see clearly the limtis of their power, if nothing else. To see them as the human, fragile and deeply terrified individuals that they are allows you to more accurately estimate your own strength - which may be greater than you think. The truth of that power balance lies in the clearing of prejudice and paranoia from your own mind.

For those who suufer from NPD, Borderline, Co-Dependency, or just plain shyness, heartache and confusion, it is a hard road. At the bottom of the well, no matter who you are, it is a dark and lonely and scary place.

I will never advocate that anyone remain in a relationship with another human being who harms or persecutes them to an unreasonable extent (we all do it to each other some), nor would I ever advocate that anyone forgo a rational conclusion that helps them undertand what they're dealing with. However, I think it is the best interest of all people to work toward an abdication of definitive  labeling, on the personal level (even if they don't give it up as a convenience short-hand) if only so they may understand themselves as discrete and complex individuals.

If someone protects their psyche by labeling an abuser a "Narcissist" that is fine with me.

To me, unworkable on many levels. Maybe band-aid triage, but not in advancement of true healing.

I think we should be able to protect ourselve in a more well-rounded and self-specific way than labeling anyone, even an abuser, an "N" or anything else. I think we are NOT protecting ourselves very effectively if we compartmentalize all abusers into "n" category, if only because all abusers are different. Some are Narcissists, some are not. If all you are lookning for is the "N" profile, you could very well miss the next abuser coming your way. Also, some narcisissists have a great deal of insight into self and others - and try hard, if clumsily, to make all the pieces of the human puzzle fit together. Should we try less hard than Narcissists with a clue?

Not if they label another poster a narcissist. That is not something I advocate.

]

Why not? Not that I believe I am a narcissist, but how does anyone know how many posters here are not, in fact, either overt or "stealth" narcissists? Being a "victim" is certainly a fine way to get a liitle "supply", if we want to get into a little jargoning (another kind of label).

Don't worry about my feelings, I come from a complex web of Narcissists, so I know how to handle a little bit of name-calling. 'Sokay, so long as no one pulls a knife or tries to scratch my eyes out.

But really, why is the sauce not good for both goose and gander? And how, if labels rather than individual personalities define everything for you, do you know the difference between individuals? Are there only two groups of people in the world: Ns and Victims?

Iamane:

Thanks for joining in. I applaud your cojones, which I lack but am cultivating slowly. I'm enjoying your input.

[Iamane]

I won't ask whose and why, although I am interested. Obviously you are talking about people in your life who you are close to. I wonder if life-relationships can ever truly be enjoyed by anyone living like this? Having to live and relate in such a contrived manner.

I'm enjoying life a lot more by doing this. For me there is no contrivance. It's just a way of dealing with what life throws at me.

Fair enough and good to hear that this technique is allowing you to enjoy your life more. What I was talking about though was life-relationships. Like those we have with partners or parents or friends. I was wondering about the possible quality of such life-relationships when such a extreme guard and position is believed to be needed and is then maintained by one or both parties. Especially when they suspect the other of n'ness or some other disorder. Somehow to me it seems like a very mechanical way to relate, and actually appears devoid of things real and human like spontaneity and compassion and understanding and emotional connection. And so, if this technique requires this of us, that we lose our human-ness, then in one sense we've become like the thing we hate.

Iamane

[Anonymous]

I think we should be able to protect ourselve in a more well-rounded and self-specific way than labeling anyone, even an abuser, an "N" or anything else. I think we are NOT protecting ourselves very effectively if we compartmentalize all abusers into "n" category, if only because all abusers are different. Some are Narcissists, some are not. If all you are lookning for is the "N" profile, you could very well miss the next abuser coming your way.

You may very well miss the human in the abuser if you’re specifically looking for abusers, Ns or otherwise.

Who decides who is an abuser? Are all abusers also victims too?

‘Person’ seems a good label. What labels do you apply to yourself T?

[Anonymous]

I applaud your cojones, which I lack but am cultivating slowly.

T - why do think Iamane has "balls"? What does this mean to you?

and why do you think you lack them? and how are you cultivating them?

luego dude

[Anonymous]

Good morning all:

To see them as the human, fragile and deeply terrified individuals that they are allows you to more accurately estimate your own strength - which may be greater than you think.

I think you've really hit the nail with this statement.  I truly believe my abusers, in childhood, were exactly as you say:  "human, fragile and deeply terrified".    I don't know that I ever put it into words, as you have so well here, but I do think that I did come to realize this in them and this was the beginning of my being able to forgive them for their atrocious behaviour.  I really think the key to my feeling calm and happy inside.. is to not just release my anger but find a way to prevent it from reforming.  Until I actually forgave my abusers, that anger I felt toward them would reform every time I thought about them.  Once I was able to see them as you describe, it helped me to feel empathy for them....and finally, rid my feelings of anger and resentment.  Now when I think of them, I feel sorry for them and as you put it...lucky to have dodged a bullet.

You have helped me recognize this necessity and realize that I must apply this same understanding to my more current abuser, in order to get to the same point in my own comfort.  I must try to see the human, fragile and deeply terrified person who has hurt me so deeply.  I must try to have empathy for my own sake, not my abuser's sake.  Once I am able to really feel for my abuser, there will be no anger generated in me and I will be free of resentment.  I know that level of comfort and that is really what I am seeking now.

This knowledge that I can achieve that level of comfort is powerful and indeed gives me strength I didn't think I had.

Thankyou T.

GFN

[Anonymous]

Guest

willingly) as being the SAME as the deep-down motives of the rest of us - to be joined with others, to love and be loved, to be heard. The narcissist, just like us, has not been heard. We just express our confusion, disappointment and terror differently. If we are able to do so with greater sophistication, we should consider ourselves lucky...

I will be happy when I achieve Balance, and excellance in my life.
This is not to be perfect.

sometime like a bad smell in the frige, I would like to find it and get rid of it. I express my confusion What the Hell is that smell and it may even be a terrifying smell, I want it out.
maybe a box of baking soda will do for awhile, However the Person that is causing the smell is still there.
We all need Balance and when the bad smell takes over the whole frige,
Im disappointed. When the baking soda fades, I guess for now I buy a bigger box until I figure whos smell is really the worse before I throw out the whole frige.

onlyrenting ....got to go

[Anonymous]

I must try to see the human, fragile and deeply terrified person who has hurt me so deeply. I must try to have empathy for my own sake, not my abuser's sake.

(((GFN))) yes, empathy for your own sake, not anyone else's.

Does your 'abuser' intend to abuse you do you think? Would she (or he) see it like that? Maybe that person is, in their terms, protecting their fragile self?

Is your abuser an abuser? Or just another flawed person?

luego dude

[bunny]

To me, unworkable on many levels. Maybe band-aid triage, but not in advancement of true healing.

I am into bandaid triages. I'm thinking that after a year or more of motivated work on themselves, then a person is better and won't put up with a lot of crap (hopefully). And I'm not about true healing whatever that is. I believe in people getting more functional than they now are. That's it.

I don't see a lot of compartmentalizing. In fact, I think people need to learn better how to compartmentalize. One of the main obstacles to self-protection is weak boundaries.

Basically our observations are different.

I don't advocate calling another poster a narcissist because that makes this group unsafe and ugly. I have pointed out posts I thought were "trolls" but that is different. A "troll" poster is only on the group to cause trouble and destroy it. And if you're not into labeling, why would you want posters to call each other a narcissist. Makes no sense to me unless you were being facetious.

bunny

[Anonymous]

Thankyou for the hug, Leugo Dude.  Those are all good questions.

Does your 'abuser' intend to abuse you do you think

?

Yes, I think there was clear intention and actually, stated intention.

Would she (or he) see it like that?

As abuse?  Definately not.  My abuser was acting to one-up me, to look good in the eyes of others, and to take advantage of me, while I was in a vunerable state, but my abuser proclaims to have acted for purely good reasons and to benefit others and I don't believe the person would see their behaviour as abusive.

Maybe that person is, in their terms, protecting their fragile self?

Could be.  Could be not even aware of doing that.  Could be in denial about feeling the need to "one-up me", look better than me, kick me while I'm down.  Probably unaware of all that and probably needing to do that because of feeling somehow......less....than me or possibly.....not as good?

Is your abuser an abuser? Or just another flawed person?

I think my abuser is an abuser.....to me because I felt abused but can I actually label my abuser as an abuser, who abuses others as he/she has done to me?  (Thinking this out and just trying to answer honestly here).  Yes, he/she has a habit of behaving in abusive ways towards others.  Does that give me the right to label the person as an abuser?
Maybe not.  

More likely, just another flawed person.  Definately a person who has sustained abuse and been taught to behave in nasty ways.  Also a person who has been "spoiled" silly and always got what was desired, when the abuse was in remission.  Aren't these are said to be the building blocks of N?

Thinking about this does help.

GFN

[bunny]

Fair enough and good to hear that this technique is allowing you to enjoy your life more. What I was talking about though was life-relationships. Like those we have with partners or parents or friends. I was wondering about the possible quality of such life-relationships when such a extreme guard and position is believed to be needed and is then maintained by one or both parties. Especially when they suspect the other of n'ness or some other disorder. Somehow to me it seems like a very mechanical way to relate, and actually appears devoid of things real and human like spontaneity and compassion and understanding and emotional connection. And so, if this technique requires this of us, that we lose our human-ness, then in one sense we've become like the thing we hate.

You make a lot of assumptions that I have these mechanical, fake relationships with my family and friends, where I'm guarded and wary. Not the case. I just make adaptations to get along with people. They actually appreciate it. Maybe that's why a lot of people are fond of me. I'm a down-to-earth real person believe it or not. In the case of a very difficult individual (possibly a narcissist, borderline, paranoid, etc.), I will observe and make certain adaptations. I don't see what the big problem is. And yes, my life is easier. You were talking to me about my life. That's the only life I'm living.

bunny

[bunny]

I'm going to (for the moment) separate abusers into those who abuse children and those who abuse adults.

If an adult abuses a child because they were once a victim, they are not very functional, and have to protect a fragile self, it's only an explanation. It doesn't make it okay. It doesn't make it justifiable. There is no justification, ever, for abusing a child. Period. When the child grows up, s/he has to adapt to this former abuser who may still be abusing. For many reasons, the adult child may continue to tolerate a lot of abuse from this individual. There are many ways to deal with it, my main idea is therapy with a really good therapist.

If an adult abuses another adult. There is still no justification, even if the person is protecting a fragile self. The main difference is that another adult isn't as helpless and can take some actions to protect themselves. For many reasons, they may not feel able to do so.

bunny

[Anonymous]

GFN,

Going back to

Once I am able to really feel for my abuser, there will be no anger generated in me and I will be free of resentment.

This may be true. How then do you really get to feel for your abuser? By getting to understand why they do what they do? If we mix that with -

Definately a person who has sustained abuse and been taught to behave in nasty ways. Also a person who has been "spoiled" silly and always got what was desired, when the abuse was in remission.

So we have an abuser who was themselves abused (is there ever an abuser who wasn’t themselves abused?) and taught to behave in nasty ways. And also they were spoiled silly. This sounds a very confusing situation. How can someone overcome such contradictory treatment? How can they ever learn to trust anyone? How much hurt must be built up inside them.

I wonder if that person would agree with you about being spoiled? What I mean is, would they see it differently to you? What I might see as being spoiled, they might see as being ‘bought off’ i.e. being given things in place of love and attention. A child knows the shallowness of being spoiled. Sometimes too being abused and then subsequently spoiled is a form of blackmail. “If you put up with the abuse, you also get spoiled. So keep your mouth shut and don’t complain.”

However the person perceives what happens to them, it all sounds very sad and complicated. Understanding how the person themselves perceived those events may be your key to losing any anger and resentment. Trying to see it through their eyes, without being clouded by your own eyes. Very difficult to do.

luego dude

[Anonymous]

Bunny, don’t know if your post above re: abusers was in response to me or just general, but want to say I’m not dealing in justification here. Understanding a motivation, being able to explain an action, is not justification, never. Practising understanding doesn't hurt people, I think. Just stating my view.
Luego dude