You want to be really sure, but can you ever be sure?

[mum]

M2: Yes, count yourself lucky for getting full custody, I wish I had it.  You are clearly an intellegent and thoughtful person, who's concern for her children is paramount.  
Find information, as you are, and then follow your own impeccable judgement.

[mirror2]

It's so nice to have several people get to the same place where I am.  I think I have been very lucky in my ending this relationship.  First, we were not married so there was no waiting period while we went through the legal process of divorce.  Second, although it didn't seem like it at the time, I acted rather quickly to get the custody process started.  He was dead set against establishing any legal custody, arguing that it would just be a barrier to us getting back together, but after I consulted a lawyer I realized that without a custody order he could come and take the kids and I would have no law enforcement options to get them back.  Third, and most important, I simply vanished from his life, moving across the country to a place where he knew I had strong family and community support.  Immediately, the kids and I saw big improvements in our quality of life even though we were financially ruined!

Before we moved I was completely manipulated and nearly destroyed by this man.  At one point I told my psychologist that I felt I needed to escape this life with my kids.  He thought I meant suicide and I got locked in a psycho ward for a week, and only got out after I went before a probate judge.  I probably made things worse by refusing to involve myself in the program there.  Talk about lucky -- think about the kind of manipulation that could happen if we had stayed in his sphere of influence.  Within days of arriving here I went to another psychiatrist who told me I was completely fine, not depressed or suicidal at all.  Of course, I also felt this enormous lifting of a huge weight in leaving and felt I had been reborn as myself.  I have gradually, with the help of my family, been able to rebuild a good - better! - life and trust myself much more.  So sometimes there are happy endings.  Or midpoints, I guess.

[Anonymous]

Dear Mirror2:

If this guy does "something" to one or both of your kids, and if that came to light, and if one of your family members were to devulge the information you have given them, and the fact that you were concerned about it (which you may not think you family would devulge but you just don't know until it happens)......children's protection agency/services could remove your children from your care, saying you failed to protect them.

Since you are aware of the fact that this guy has inappropriate urges, you are expected to protect your children from him, period.

Even if you told every person who knows him, every family member of his and every friend, what he has expressed, and voiced your concern, and asked them to monitor him, when he is around your children, it might not be considered enough.  Who monitors while he and the children are supposed to be sleeping?  Who is watching every single second? Believe me, the investigating agency will pin blame on you and you will pay.

1.  All visits should be supervised by you and another responsible adult, at all times (and that means shifts during sleep times, if visits are overnite).

2.  Or there should be no visits.

Better to keep your children away from a potential preditor than worry about their lost relationship with him.  They will get olders and be able to decide whether or not they want to know him.  For now, your obligation is to be sure that their relationship with him does not turn sexual and the only way you can do that is by #1 or #2 above.

Sorry, but there is no other way to protect them.

[bunny]

I am not sure at all that CPS would remove your children from you, but I am wondering how it came about that your children are going without you, to visit this lunatic's family. I'm not criticizing you here. You have a lot more info about the situation than I do. But if this guy is *that* destructive, I'm not sure the kids need to see him. Are his relatives as unstable as he is?

Again, I do not hold the same view about your children being removed, but there could be an investigation if the children say anything to a teacher or therapist that leads them to think the child is at risk.

bunny

[mirror2]

I sat here for a good 10 minutes trying to find a way to express the shades of grey involved in this visitation thing.  I'm still not sure how to get this across.  This man has not acted on his feelings.  I know that for a fact because he has not had access.  I just don't think you can live with such absolutes -- that because he expressed these feelings he should never be allowed to be alone with the children.  Why?  Because:

1.  He is not a monster, he is seriously damaged by his NPD.
2.  I know him very well, so I'm taking a calculated risk and trusting my instincts.

This must sound absolutely terrible to some of you, but in fact I have to weigh risks for these children every day.  I'm doing everything I can to minimize this risk -- the visit is being supervised by his two sisters and brothers-in-law who are quite functional.  I've talked with each of the kids about being on the alert for inappropriate sexual behavior from both strangers and people they know.  We are going to try the code phrase to signal trouble.  They are aware that their father has a serious illness that affects the way he feels and makes it hard for him to be in their lives.  And he has a girlfriend from whom he is currently getting his N supply.  I will call them each and every morning to ensure they slept where they were supposed to and to see how they are doing.  And I've made it very clear to their father that if he fails to meet any condition I've set for the visitation, then there will be no future visits.  

Believe it or not, I really need the break that this visit provides so that I can get some medical things taken care of in another city.  Not to mention a little emotional break.

Of course, I still worry and plan for contingencies and worry some more.  In fact, last night I dreamed that some former friends tried to kidnap the kids from the airport and take them to Hawaii.   So there you have it.

Mir2

[sickened]

I'm sorry, but I find that the fact that he expressed an ACTUAL sexual desire for his own children, excuse me but it is selfish and dangerous and neglectful to RISK putting those children anywhere NEAR a monster who "has feelings", just because you need "an emotional break".

Find some place else to put your kids while you get your rest. In my opinion, you are justifying ignoring something SO heinous which is selfish. Knowing that there is a possibility that they could get molested by their own father and you justify even having them in his presence at all, this is just infuriating.

the thing you should be doing is filing a formal complaint against him and have a restraining order put on him to keep him away from the children forever, and try as hard as you possibly can to see that they are NEVER in jeopardy.

I am sincerely disgusted at this flagrant disregard for those childrens safety.

This man actually TOLD you he has sexual feelings for his own children. Ding, ding, ding....hell? Is there anhybody home?????


!

[Anonymous]

My heart is in the right place. I want you to know something. The reason I am so affected by this situation, is because my mother turned her face away from her own children, and horribly neglected us and carelessly put us in dangerous situations. I hope this is a wake up call, from me who really cares, from me, who understands the heartache of an ignored and neglected and abandoned child. I don't want to see you make the same mistake with your own children. I can tell you till I am blue in the face, but it is up to you to listen. I hope you take my experience seriously.

And please, shield your children from the man who has sexual desires for them. Please.

[Portia]

Hi Mirror2, I read all your posts. Some thoughts:

hanging around my house after I expressly told him that was not acceptable (during his one visit he even napped in my bed!!!),

did he have a key? If so, have you changed the locks? I would. Just a thought from a very security-conscious person!

About your children. You have 3 and the eldest is now 10? They’re still very young.

I will require that the kids stay at either of their two aunts houses each night and talk with me on the phone each morning. I will also have a session with each kid before the trip to remind them about all the safety

the visit is being supervised by his two sisters and brothers-in-law who are quite functional.  

Okay. Sexual abuse doesn’t just happen at night, in bed. It happens in broad daylight, in parks, sitting on a lap in a diner, in cars. I’m not saying it might happen, but want you to consider how it works in practice. I hope none of the children are alone with him at any time. I’m not saying he’s going to do anything: but if he did, or if anyone else did for that matter – it’s too late for the child. The child is harmed for life and no-one can make it so that it didn’t happen. Simple prevention vs life-long hope for a cure.

This is a very difficult issue to struggle with, fills me with shame for having children with someone like that and putting them into such a world.

Please deal with any shame. Your children are a gift to you. They are unique, individual human beings with great potential. That potential can be thwarted right now. If any abuse can be prevented, it should be prevented. The more abused children we have, the more we create people who grow up to abuse. It’s too late to regret having kids with him, but it’s not too late to appreciate them for the wonderful people they are! Your kids are NOT a genetic replica of you + him. They are their own personalities. And right now they are fragile personalities, easily damaged. The more I think about this visit, the more I am intuitively against it. Sorry but that’s the way I feel.

I told my psychologist that I felt I needed to escape this life with my kids. He thought I meant suicide and I got locked in a psycho ward for a week

Jesus. What happened to your kids during that week? I’m sorry for you and sickened by this. The stupidity and cruelty of the psychiatric profession. Hell, this would be one of my worst nightmares. You did well to get out okay.

[bunny]

mirror2,

From your description of him, I think he is sociopathic and actually dangerous. He has verbally warned you about his inappropriate feelings. He may not have acted on them yet but that doesn't mean he wouldn't. There are no calculated risks at this point. Just risks.

Children cannot be relied on to protect themselves from a personality-disordered parent. Children can't be relied upon to use code phrases or to even be aware when an adult is inappropriate with them. There are very subtle ways for an adult to act out without a child understanding it as abuse. But the child will be damaged.

I'm not sure why you are sending your children away to be supervised by his family members. Even if they are functional and okay people, a separation from mom when she is having medical procedures is traumatic for children. You said you're living in an area where you have family. Can they take care of the kids? Or can someone come to your house to help you out with the kids?

I'm thinking that their visit to this family, without your being there, is not a good idea. I'm pretty concerned after what you've described as having happened to you (an adult) after exposure to this man. And his family couldn't do anything.

bunny