spilling

[mum]

Guest 2:  Aways opinions, keep in mind:
      Being "clear" does not mean you have it all figured out.  Clarity is in knowing "it" can never be figured out, there is no right or wrong, that impermanence is the human condition, and accepting that, living all the same.  "Awake" is just a word and for me it is close to
aware.  "Awake/asleep": different for everyone. There is no judgement, except our own.

     If someone tells me I am "old" and on that day I think it is a good thing, I may feel happy about it....if my wrinkles and crowsfeet bother me, then I might be insulted.  Noticing that I make that choice is "awake" for me.
     
I am what determines judgement.  Whether people are bothered by what I write or you write is up to them.  Peoeple have opinions.  Everyone is entitled.  A "place" like this message board has lots of them, but we all choose to feel whatever we want about them.  
     
I choose to believe most people are here to share their experience to find a common hope that they are not alone on this journey and that they can find help or help others.  I agree with you and also believe people are intrinsically good, not "bad", and only I can deteremine how I feel about those close to me.  
     
In my experience, I stayed with my ex through much betrayal and abuse, and in choosing that (regardless of what it looked like to others) I shaped my life.  There were those who thought I was a fool while I stayed with him, and then others who thought I was a fool when I divorced him.
   
 If I want to discard something someone says as not part of my truth...there is no judgement except my own on that.  Same goes for what people choose to think of what I write here.  If I am misunderstood or disagreed with, I get to choose how I feel about it. Noticing that, I am aware.
     
You are on a path, as we all are.  Awareness is only that. Aware.  How far can people step outside their "life" and look at how they are living it?  Up to them.  Not up to anyone else. How valuable is it?  Up to them.  
     I have found it helpful to notice what I do and why I do it and that it is always my choice.  Overwhelming or powerful: I decide.  My choices, "good" or "bad" (in my opinion or anyone else's) give me experiences that allow me to discover my life's meaning.  So nothing is ever "good" or "bad" in the long run.....it just is.  If I like my life...it's all "good",  and only I get to choose that label.
     
I married a jerk and had kids with him.  Would I go back and change it all if I could?  Nope, 'cause here I am and I continue to learn from that seemingly "negative" experience. (plus I have some awesome kids to share this life with). That was and is my necessary experience.  
 
  Wishing you the "best", whatever that is for you.

[guest 2]

thanks "mum'!  Your words are most appreciated and heard.

I have had four blissful days of great strength, feeling my power come flooding back.  Understanding the need and setting some BIG boundaries for myself with him.  Telling him what I need in a strong way.  My sleep returned, and my sense of self worth.  I have learned that I must sit in my body and ask myself 'what do i really need right now?' and then express it.

Today i find more evidence of porn use, and it finds me spinning back into the hurt.  I know it's not about me but I feel so saddened by it.  Am I destined to live with someone who has this other life?  I know a large part of this is about acceptance, and understanding the roots of the behavior.  But I feel like he is making the choice to move away from me.  When I do talk to him about the porn, he really downplays i (or denies it).  Saying all men do it, it's natural and healthy.  In some ways I agree, but when it is secretive I believe it can only take us out of our lives (when we are 'using' it).

[mum]

Hi, Guest 2.
Interesting that the confusion came back up for you>  I would say, "so sorry" to you if I didn't believe you have a handle on things.  Instead I will say: how interesting.

Would you say you have had 2 distinct feelings lately (full of layers, I am sure)?
   

 The "feeling" you had, inside your body, when you were "strong": would you call it a happy feeling...or perhaps contentment or love (for self)?
     

The feeling when you discovered the porn and subsequent conversations, etc regarding it: would you call that something kinda bad, or maybe some type of pain? (oh, and by the way, as I'm sure you know, NOT all guys are into porn...many find it demeaning to women and don't support it)
   

 See if you can stay outside of it for a while longer if you can and try to see which way you want to feel in your life.  

All I know is that I had lots of self doubt and negativity and confusion when I tried to fix my ex N and he twisted it and convinced me I was the one with problems (it's your fault I_______fill in the blank with bad behavoir).
     

I remember after his first (of many) affairs, saying to myself: this must be love because it hurts so much. Sounds amusing maybe, now, but I built a family on that!
     

Now I know what I want to feel in this life.... when I figured that out, I started to get it.  The "bad stuff/the good stuff": all telling you something interesting.  Hang in there.  You haven't lost any power at all, it's all more information, that's all.

[Anonymous]

I know a large part of this is about acceptance, and understanding the roots of the behavior.  But I feel like he is making the choice to move away from me.  When I do talk to him about the porn, he really downplays i (or denies it).  Saying all men do it, it's natural and healthy.  In some ways I agree, but when it is secretive I believe it can only take us out of our lives (when we are 'using' it).

It reminds me of an alcoholic or drug addict who chooses the addiction over the welfare of family members. They don't see it as a choice, though.  They just do whatever the compulsion tells them to do. Generally they won't seek help until they "hit bottom" and have no resources left. Porn can be an addiction like substance abuse. I don't think your H has, as yet, admitted to himself that he has some serious problems with self-control and honesty.

bunny

[Anonymous]

Your description of your husband/"other" experience is familiar, as are some of the elements of personality, with an important difference: Investment.

It took ten years for our/his stuff to come to a complete head (we are 14 in now) of lies, betrayals and severe acting out, although in retrospect I should have seen it all coming. We are still picking up the pieces.

Joint therapy did help quite a bit, especially with the immediate issue of his ability to stop justifying his betrayal with complaints about me.

This book: After the Affair/Janis Abraham Spring, PhD, was also very helpful. It is written for both parties, the betrayed and the unfaithful (I though it would tell me to get over myself, but it was actually very affirming and helpful). It is a good idea to get your husband to read it, too.

I can't say whether or not I would make further investment in your shoes, knowing what I know now. It is a sacrifice to stick around and deal with the fallout, but instructive about yourself, too. So gains can be made, in either case.

I do think one of the most important considerations you have is just how short your relationship was before you married (and still is), which makes it harder to determine if real and lasting change is possible. I had many good-to-decent years (albeit full of warnings of things to come) prior to meltdown to keep me hopeful now.

Whether or not he may have NPD, your husband certainly has a lot of issues with responsibility - both corporeally (like with money) and personally (passing the buck, minimizing his own faults, rationalizing his behavior). Mine did, also, but has improved tremendously in these areas since the Year of Our Damnation. Other probelms, not so much - but baby steps happening.

Potentially, that means a lot of "mothering" in your future. Only you can really determine his potential for growing up to be the man you want to be with.

Deciding to stay can be benevolent and kind, but can also be enabling. There is a little "relationship geometry" and "inner-world calculus" yet for you to do, in my estimation.

See what fruit therapy bears; there is no rush to decide - so long as you know you are in the process of making a reasoned, self-valuing/respecting decision rather than acting on an impulse to save a fantasy or avoid your own issues.

T

[Naomi]

Learn how to trust your gut feelings. Learn how to trust your intuition. If we do not listen to that nagging voice inside our heads, we are sure to suffer the consequences. We, as humans, are designed with the natural capabilities that give us a gut feeling about everything to do with our lives. Many times, we ignore this little nagging voice until we have really stepped in it.

Trust your intuition, just as Mum so insightfully expressed.

If you feel something is wrong, something usually is. Learn how to listen to that voice. It is there to protect and save us.

[guest 2]

I am finding ALL of these thoughts so very helpful, and constructive.  thank you, thank you, once again, to everyone.  

It is so very interesting how we second guess our gut feels.  That has been the biggest difficulty throughout all of this.  I am starting to see a pattern develop.  I get a sense that something is up, a gut feel.  I start questioning things, feelings of doubt and sadness ensue.  I go to him to talk about my feelings, and he convinces me that a) there is nothing going on he is just busy, and b) that I am being paranoid or c) this has to do with my own issues or d) if he does admit that I am right about something he downplays it's impact or says that he is working on it.  He looks into my eyes and says definitively, "I Love You.  I am not hiding anything from you anymore, I am not going anywhere.  You are what I want."  Then I try to convince myself that I am paranoid, that everything is fine, that I have misinterpreted some things.  On occasion I wonder if it is me that is going crazy, minor depression creeps in.  So now I am starting to trust my gut more and more.  But what happens if there are things going on that I don't know about? That I can't prove?  My gut speaks but it is only speculation.

I just have to trust that things will happen they way they are supposed to.  In my moments of power I feel that I am learning things that I need to grow as a human (about my own family).  And I really do feel stronger because of it.  My intuition is indeed a powerful thing, and I am grateful for it.

At times I do wonder if he can ever provide the truthful love that I really want/need.  How can one stay if they cannot ever trust?  How much of the trusting work is mine?  Will I always feel like I am waiting for him to lie again?  He understands that if he lies to me again he is making the choice to end our relationship.

I admit that our relationship/marriage happened very quickly, but to be honest I wouldn't change that if I could.  Many parts of it are beautiful, I have shared only the ugly things here.

[Anonymous]

Hi Guest 2,

How can one stay if they cannot ever trust? How much of the trusting work is mine? Will I always feel like I am waiting for him to lie again?

Here's the way I think of trust (my opinion).

Trust is earned.  It's like money in the bank.  People say and do things (make deposits) and after a time, I begin to trust.  The more deposits they make, the easier it is to trust and to rely on them making good desposits.

Once the person does something to destroy trust (empty the bank account), trust is gone.  I dont' trust them any more until they begin making deposits and earning that trust again (only this time, the bank charges are much higher, and they will not earn the same interest on their deposits, as they did in the past because they have a history of emptying the bank account--removing trust).  This is not punishment.....it's the way I feel...as if they have robbed the bank, in a way, made a deal to leave their money there and then renigged on the deal.  I feel ripped off.  Their deal with me was dishonest and I don't like crooked deals.

It takes time for trust to be built up in the first place and it takes much more time for it to be rebuilt, once it is ruined.  Will that level of trust ever be the same?  I doubt it.  It will not be easy for the depositor because like the bank, I keep their payment history on the screen for reference.  I keep watch that they are making good, honest deposits.  And I will be quick to end the deal, if I see that they are not holding up their end by the least bit of crookedness.

The work in trusting isn't up to you, Guest 2.
You're work to to earn the trust of others, not create it in your head about them.  It's what they say and do that earns trust.

That's just my opinion, mind you.  Like the bank, you are waiting for him to mess up again, carefully monitoring his deposits, and you hold the deal together.  If he is seriously interested in earning trust, he will make big deposits by behaving responsibly and being honest.  So far, how are those deposits coming along?

GFN