Anything

[Anonymous]

Hi all:

By definition, shame is a painful emotion.  No doubt.  I guess the way I see it is that it is one emotion that we wouldn't feel without someone else around to feel ashamed infront of or because of.

Narcissistic shame, as I understand it, is caused by the primary caregiver shaming the child and not helping the child deal with those feelings.  It goes something like:

Little guy behaves inappropriately, caregiver (usually the mother) says:  "Bad boy!!"  and leaves it at that.  She doesn't explain that the boy is good but his action was unacceptable.  She doesn't express confidence that she believes he will learn and not repeat the behaviour.  She doesn't express her love for him, regardless.  She just puts shame on him and he.....being only a little guy....doesn't handle it very well at all.  He finds the feeling overpowering and extremely uncomfortable.  Feels bad about himself.  Doesn't know what to do with all the "bad" feelings.  They sink in and become a part of him, rather than be released by validation of self, by his caregiver.  Validation that doesn't happen.

In your case Butterfly, your feelings are perfectly valid.  This might be a very confusing time for you.  Your mom is so ill and yet the pain from the past, from her past behaviour toward you, still hurts.  You expressed that to your friend, and you said you:

didn't feel ashame for what I said about my mother, rather, I felt shame in response to the words my friend had said and not said to me. She didn't give me the acceptance/affirmation/validation I subconsciously needed to hear from her. What I really wanted underneath my words was validation. If my friend had said validating words to me, then I wouldn't feel like what I said was wrong.

By not giving you validation, she put shame on you.  Had she given you validation, you would not have felt that shame.  Your need for validation is a legitimate need and not something to be ashamed of.  We all need validation.  Your friend may not have realized what happened or even that she was putting shame on you but that's what happened, imo.  You were left feeling more confused and now ashamed and .....good for you!...did figger it out on your own.  You looked at it as a friend, that shame, and learned from it, which is good.  My point is, you would not have felt it in the first place had someone else not been there to put it on you.

my need to vent my suppressed feelings about my mother and a need to hear someone say that it is okay to feel that way about your mother.

Perfectly valid need.  Instead, you got no response or a response that felt like you had something to be ashamed of.  The root of the shame, imo, was not you, your feelings, or needs, but....your friend's response.

Just my opinion.  Hope you are doing ok Butterfly.  You have every right to express your feelings and your needs are valid too.  I don't think you are being hard on yourself.  I think your friend was being hard on you (and maybe didn't even realize it).

((((((((((Butterfly))))))))))

GFN

[b/k]

GFN wrote,

Hope you are doing ok Butterfly. You have every right to express your feelings and your needs are valid too. I don't think you are being hard on yourself. I think your friend was being hard on you (and maybe didn't even realize it).

The point I was trying to convey with my story was, I didn't feel shame after I realized what I was feeling shameful of.  I'm doing okay.  The peace and calmness my mother has about her health condition is helping me feel fine.  

GFN, thank you for sticking by me.  All I really need and want is for somebody to be on my side no matter how I feel.  You did that for me.  Thanks for the great hug.

I won't be around for awhile, but I will be thinking about you, GFN, esp. on your daughter's graduation day and how special it will be for you and your family.  I will also be thinking about your beautiful garden and how envious I am of it.      Sending you happy thoughts.

Hope everyone have a great day.

Butterfly

[Anonymous]

Hi Butterfly:

The point I was trying to convey with my story was, I didn't feel shame after I realized what I was feeling shameful of. I'm doing okay. The peace and calmness my mother has about her health condition is helping me feel fine.

Glad you aren't feeling shame and for that realization.  It would be harder if she were not handling it so well.  If that were the case, and it were me, I might feel torn between wanting to ease her suffering and not wanting to.

I'm on your side no matter what you feel is right!  Hugging you no matter.
Thanks for the happy thoughts and wishes.  I need those and appreciate your generosity very much.

GFN

[b/k]

I came across this quote today and had to share it.

"Humans are like tea bags, you have to put them in hot water before you know how strong they are."

[mum as guest]

Since this is the anything thread: I will take it to mean a rant is possible.
I am sooooooo F'n sick of always keeping it together.  I am sick and tired of always questioning myself, my actions and reactions, and sick sick sick of dealing with my ex husband and his infectious poison that has leaked it's way into my life and by way of my beautiful children, can never be erradicated!!!
His poison infects us all, right down to our bones, and every single day is a struggle to stay healthy amid his constant torrent of  harrassment and noxious selfishness.
I am having a bad couple of days.....and I just feel like saying that.  Yeah, I know, I can let it go, but some days I just can't and I feel overwhelmed like everyone else does. I love my children so much, and I feel like a failure when what he does and says filters down into my being emotional and acting so in front of my children. I never want to be the cause of them feeling bad, but as a parent, isn't that inevitable? Am I allowed to have feelings?  AAAAAGGGGGHH. Why do I have to shut up all the time and never let them know how I feel about thier dad and what is going on?  And why do I feel bad if I let any of that out to them??
 I feel like I am on an emotional see saw.  I know full well what I am doing, and yet I cannot stop it. (the downward spiral of "life sucks")
 I just need to feel how bad things suck sometimes.  This is sooooo hard!!!  I feel like doing some sort of primal scream!!!!!
Thank you for letting me rant.  I guess the hot water is getting to this tea bag!!!!!
Speaking of bags....I think I need a punching bag...seriously.

[Anonymous]

Hiya Mum:

Popped in here on my way out this eve and saw your post.

((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((mum))))))))))))))))))))))))))))

Probably doesn't help but can't hurt.

I feel like a failure when what he does and says filters down into my being emotional and acting so in front of my children. I never want to be the cause of them feeling bad, but as a parent, isn't that inevitable? Am I allowed to have feelings?

Nobody can keep it together allllllllllllll of the time.  Being emotional infront of your children shows your humanness and fallability.  It's ok ....they'll live.   It is inevitable.  Absolutely.  And you are allowed to have feelings!

I feel like doing some sort of primal scream!!!!!

I've done that!  A friend told me to try it......just scream into a pillow for a few minutes.  It's a great release!  Makes me want to live in a jungle.  Wait a minute.....I already live in a jungle.....sort of.   So do you, Mum.  And the lions and tigers are the stuff these idiots impose on us.  Everyone who has to deal with such....people......gets sick of it.  It's sick, that's why!  And to a certain extent...they make us sick too.

But the good news is......you have the brains and the good sense to rant and do whatever you can to get it out and let it go.  You do a very good job of that too, Mum.  I'm very proud of the way you do that, with all the crap you have to deal with this ding dong!

I think I need a punching bag...seriously

Hey!  If I can have bongo drums, you can have a punching bad.  Just think of the great fun you'll have, picturing his face in the centre of that bag!  It might help!

This too shall pass, Mum.  Keep ranting if it helps.  I doubt anyone here minds at all.  It's good to see you getting it out.

Please love yourself too.  You aren't perfect (which makes you wonderfully "normal") but you're beautiful and caring and one of the best mom's alive!!

Another one (((((((((((((((((Mum)))))))))))))))

GFN

[mum guesting]

Thanks, GFN. You have helped. ((((())))))

[Plucky G2]

I love my children so much, and I feel like a failure when what he does and says filters down into my being emotional and acting so in front of my children. I never want to be the cause of them feeling bad, but as a parent, isn't that inevitable? Am I allowed to have feelings? AAAAAGGGGGHH. Why do I have to shut up all the time and never let them know how I feel about their dad and what is going on? And why do I feel bad if I let any of that out to them??

Hi mum , I'm feeling you.  Ok this is what I would say.  It is only my opinion, feel free to disregard it if it does not sound right to you.

As a human being, you are not going to keep it together all the time.  That is just a fact.    So having that as a goal is totally unrealistic.  And no one else is achieving that.  Even the Dalai Lama, probably.

Your ex is the toxic source of much pain and anger.  He knows how to push your buttons masterfully.  Any contact you have with him will allow toxins to infiltrate your life.  He is also going to be (already is) toxic to your children.  As much as you can minimize the secondhand exposure they have from him through you, the better.

I don't know how old your children are.  If they are young, and they see your anger, they may interpret it as more or different than it is.  That is why you want to shield them.  As you know.    Even older children who seem to be capable of handling it, may suffer a lot.

But they also need to know that he is in fact maddening and that his dysfunctional words and actions can produce anger, and that this is normal.  If you model that he gets under your skin enormously, and say or do things you later regret, they will likely follow your lead.  If you can model letting it slide off your back like so much polluted water off a duck, while ackowledging how abnormal it is, that can help them.

Try to limit the contact you have with your ex.  Can logisitics be handling with the help of someone else?  Can it be done only in writing?   Can someone else filter this before it gets to you?  Literally?

Can you procure more support so that you can unload onto an understanding adult and spare your kids?

I would say you feel bad because you are a good mother, and yet you are unable to just absorb all the negative energy your stupid ex is putting out, and you worry when it spills over that it could harm your children.  I think your worry is well-founded and yet you cannot get along without spilling your guts somehow.

So do it here.  You will always find understanding people with insight.  And do it with a sympathetic adult, whoever you can find.  Perhaps write a journal.   Do some exercise and get outdoors in the fresh air.  Go to a pub.   Swim.  Run.  Watch wrestling shows.

Oh, and give yourself a break.
Plucky
[/quote]

[Anonymous]

Hey Mum:

Been thinking about these two questions of yours:

1.

Why do I have to shut up all the time and never let them know how I feel about thier dad and what is going on?

We are told not to bad mouth our x's because they are the children's parent and the child might think badly of themselves, because they will wonder if they themselves are "like" that parent..... and thus have the same bad points.

Sometimes, I think this is complete bs because children can think for themselves and will automatically wonder if they are like their parents, notice their imperfections, and possibly feel bad about themselves, a little, regardless of what we say.  They'll see the good in us too.  Plus, aren't we hiding the truth from them by not expressing what's real and instead pretending or ignoring it or trying to keep it .....together?

I don't know.  I've made negative comments (not often and lot's of positive comments too), and I've felt very angry with my x, and expressed it, and my children were quick to defend him, so there ya go.  I don't think this hurt them either.  I think it was simply natural for them to react defensively, as if their father could do no wrong, because at that point.....they just couldn't see it (because I had been helping to hide it and their exposure did not allow for a real view).  They were only visiting as if it were a hotel......not at all like a real home life situation.  They were guests and didn't experience much of what life is really like with daddio.

That has changed.  They are older now and their opinion has changed and they are expressing their feelings about him to me now.  They have experienced living with their father and have found out that it is definately not like being a guest in a hotel.   I think my children feel good about themselves because they have been taught that we all have traits that are good and not so good and that they can choose to do what they want to with what they have.   And they are valued and loved, warts and all.

I wouldn't die worrying about what I let slip through my teeth in a moment of not keeping it together, if you would mum.  Instead, concentrate on the overall picture you've given, and what really matters....the good things about your children that you see and love and value.  This will help them more than your occasional slip of the tongue will ever hurt them, imo.

2.

And why do I feel bad if I let any of that out to them??

Because the "experts" have convinced us that they know best and what is and is not true.  I have a hard time with some of it sometimes.  Sometimes, common sense kicks in and psychoblab kicks out.  It's the feelings people have that ought to be expressed.  Yes, it's nice if we can calmly say:  "I'm not happy with your father right now because of stuff that he has said or done.  I'm mad and it's ok to feel mad." and talk about if they have felt mad before and with whom/about what and they might begin to express empathy for you, too, which isssssss a good learning experience for them.

This is reasonable and lovely but it doesn't always happen that way in the real world.  So don't panic mum.  Truly.  You are not alone and are not causing your children devistating harm by not being perfect and not always keeping it together.  It's impossible to do and it might not be as necessary as we are expected to believe.  It's a good goal and worth trying for but I doubt anyone is capable of being thaaaaaat together.  As long as some meaningful conversation comes afterward, where they get to express how they feel....whether they are mad at you for being mad at their dad or feel for you because they have also been mad at him before....it will have some positive effect, I think.

(((((((((((Mum))))))))))

GFN

[mum as guest]

GFN:

I think it was simply natural for them to react defensively, as if their father could do no wrong, because at that point.....they just couldn't see it (because I had been helping to hide it and their exposure did not allow for a real view). They were only visiting as if it were a hotel......not at all like a real home life situation. They were guests and didn't experience much of what life is really like with daddio.

YUP!! that's it.

They are older now and their opinion has changed and they are expressing their feelings about him to me now. They have experienced living with their father and have found out that it is definately not like being a guest in a hotel. I think my children feel good about themselves because they have been taught that we all have traits that are good and not so good and that they can choose to do what they want to with what they have. And they are valued and loved, warts and all.

Hoping for same!!!

As long as some meaningful conversation comes afterward, where they get to express how they feel....whether they are mad at you for being mad at their dad or feel for you because they have also been mad at him before....it will have some positive effect, I think.

Probably this is where I got bummed out, as they are at dad's for two more nights....

Plucky:

As much as you can minimize the secondhand exposure they have from him through you, the better.

Exactly!! Exactly why I felt so bad.

And do it with a sympathetic adult, whoever you can find. Perhaps write a journal. Do some exercise and get outdoors in the fresh air.

Did cry to a few friends.  Did write (a lot!!).  Can't exactly use "fresh air" as it is 110 F outside, but did yoga and lifted weights!!  Bingo!!

Oh, and give yourself a break.

How often have I given this exact advice and yet NOT done it for myself???
Thank you!!!!

Bunny: if you are reading: you were right (man, can you just live with me?) You told me not to put too much stock in my children speaking up for themselves or in that Phd. who was hired to speak for them. They only gave him a watered down version of what they tell me....or he didn't ask the right questions or whatever......and things will only change a small amount as I doubt "more flexibility" (which is what HE heard my daughter say) will be easy to make happen legally.....but if anyone can put teeth in something so vague, it will be my lawyer.  OH WELL!!!!
gotta let it go!!

[a guest]

I really don't mean to divert the attention of the current situation, but I figure this is the anything thread and I need a place to vent, so if you don't mind I will do so here.

I feel so scared and angry.  Scared for my future and angry about my past and present.  I look back at my life and I'm sick to my stomach just thinking about it.  I just feel so alone and a failure at my life.  If my life continues to be the way it is now, I beg God almighty to please take me away from my misery.  I look around, esp. in my family and they are married.  And here I am, so alone and no shoulders to cry on, noone I can come home to, no one to share my life with.  No kids to call my own.  Oh, how I feel so alone and empty and such a failure at life.  Why is it so easy for some ppl to attract others to them.  And here I am never been in love before.  Will I ever have the privilege to know what it's like to be in love??  Is there something wrong with me?  Am I destined to live alone for the rest of my life?  If so, I don't want to live.  Life is too burdensome having to go home to an empty house.  Life is already too burdensome with my mindset.  I just don't have a grip with life, ppl, and myself.  What is the purpose of living when I see no purpose for my existence?  This frightening thought has caused me to be physically sick all day.  My life is so despictable.  I hate it and can't stand it.  And the worst part of it is, I don't have the willpower or mindset to change the way I see others and myself.  Woe is me.

If you don't want to reply, I understand.  I just need to voice my misery somewhere.  

Thank you.

[mum]

Dear, A guest.
I am sorry you feel sad today. If I had read this yesterday, you would have had a cying buddy.  But I have learned a lot of coping skills to get myself back up that I never would have learned had I not reached out for help.  That's what you have done. Excellent.

You acknowledge your mindset is a burden to you.  Do you know also, that your mindset is actually perpetuating your circumstance or at least your reaction to it?
Do you see that you are saying YOU are one entity and YOUR LIFE is another?  That's a great place to start!! YOU are NOT your life situation.
So YOU don't have to identify yourself through your circumstances if you choose not to.
Have you considered therapy?  Good therapy (and there is a lot available) can help you find the skills for change.  

You may not think anyone cares, but I do, and I'd bet money (if I had any   ) that most of the people here have felt exactly as you have at one time or another.  So, I think many here could relate to you.
Please don't despair.  The fact that you have posted says you have already taken one VERY BIG first step to getting the life you want. You have identified what you don't want.  Now it's time to find your way OUT of that. You can do it......we are all on that same path to healing.
Bless you.

[Lara]

Dear Guest,
WELCOME to the board. I'm so sorry that you're feeling so low at the moment.
Mum is right...you have taken a very important first step in posting here, and you have shown a lot of courage. You have shown how strong the human spirit is, to reach out even at a time when you are feeling that nothing is worthwhile. That is your survival instinct at work, and I promise you that if you stay around this site, you will get the support you need, not only to survive from day to day, but to start seeing a more hopeful future.
So many times on this board, I've seen good, sensitive people like yourself, find new strength over the weeks and months. The same thing happened to me. As Mum said,  many people here have felt, or are feeling, the way you are now. I remember my own thoughts not very long ago: ' I am never going to feel happy again. There is no way out of this situation. I am trapped. I am going crazy.' I could not see any hope for myself, but reading and posting here has been my therapy, and now I can see definite changes for the better, which before I would have thought impossible.

Please have no doubt Guest, that the people on this site  already care about you, just by reading what you wrote yesterday, and that they are thinking about you. If and when you want to post again, to share how you are feeling or to vent about why life has been so difficult for you, people here can support you through that.

I am glad that you have come here, and I admire you so much for taking that first big step on the way to a different future.

Sincerely,
Lara.

[a guest]

Thank you, ((((Mum))))) and (((((Lara)))))  for reaching out to me with your kind words.

Sincerely,
a guest

[Anonymous]

Hi A Guest:

Sorry for all the lonliness and saddness you are feeling.  It's not very nice being alone and feeling a lone and sad.   Lara and Mum gave you some good stuff to think about.

I have a couple of those questions that I guess might get you thinking a bit (or you can ignor them, if you choose, ofcourse ):

Do you think you would be attracted to a person who is feeling as you do?

The reason I ask is because it might not be the best time, right now, to meet anyone relationshipwise, because you are unhappy and maybe vunerable in this state.  You may not be in your most attractive state or the best state to attract a person wishing to share love and a happy life with you.

Will you ever find love?  You might.  Much depends on living, I think.

If you find things to do that you enjoy, learn to love yourself and find peace and happiness in your own life first....you have a better chance of attracting someone who is on the same channel and glad to share more of the same, imo.

This may not be an easy thing to accomplish but it is doable.  Look at it this way......you're on your own, at this point, so what if you decide to enhance your life in new ways, by trying new activities, meeting new people, doing things you like, making your home, even though it is only a home for one person right now...making it a happier home?   You can explore you and value you.....if this feels like it's missing.

One little step at a time might be doable?  And posting here.....we'll all support you and encourage you, is my best guess.

Please don't give up on the idea that your life can be much happier and full-filling.  It can happen ....you can work on making it happen....a little at a time.  Once you find yourself feeling happier and enjoying your life as it is......you will become more attractive to others who are similar.

((((((((((((((A Guest))))))))))))))))

GFN