Anything

[MarisaML]

Oh my!  Cancer.  This is a hard one.  I lost my Mom 11 years ago to the disease.  And I do feel so much for those having to go through this.  Not just for the patients but their loved ones.. it's hard for all.  I promised myself a long time ago to never shy away from people who are experiencing this.  As so many people did with my family.  In my mind, anyway, I feel that there is strength in numbers and when faced with cancer it is comforting to have a lot of support.  Even as I say that I won't shy away there is a part of me that would like to avoid the subject because all of these old emotions start rising to the surface again.  Is that bad?  I hope that you have plenty of love and support in your life and if you need more then you can find it here.   

[pennyplant]

I promised myself a long time ago to never shy away from people who are experiencing this.  As so many people did with my family.  In my mind, anyway, I feel that there is strength in numbers and when faced with cancer it is comforting to have a lot of support.  Even as I say that I won't shy away there is a part of me that would like to avoid the subject because all of these old emotions start rising to the surface again.  Is that bad?  I hope that you have plenty of love and support in your life and if you need more then you can find it here.   

It's not bad, it's the best you can do.  If people understand why you can't always face it, then I'm sure they shouldn't hold it against you.  After my father died, I must have had the opportunity to attend six funerals in one year.  At first I was almost eager to attend because it was fresh in my mind how good it felt that people came to the funeral home for us.  But after awhile, I started dreading them.  It was too much too soon.

I know of people whose families faced cancer and lost much of their support.  Old family friends fell away because they couldn't deal with it.  What a terrible impact THAT has on the survivors.  The particular person I'm thinking of, that this happened to, has never let go of the anger over that.

I know people who have grieved, or perhaps not grieved, for so long and so hard, that they can hardly bear to buy a sympathy card when someone they know has a loss.  It's just never an easy thing for anyone.  I try to accept whatever people can give.  It helps to know where someone is coming from on that.  What their personal history is with loss.

My loss is something that I have talked about maybe more than some people do.  I know someone who has a similar experience to me but it is hard for them to participate in that kind of conversation.  So, it is something of an unspoken connection.  In fact, that particular connection is a difficult one for many reasons.  But it will always be there in my opinion.  Very subtle support?  In my own mind maybe?  It means something to me at any rate.

MarisaML, did you make the comment before about giving yourself all the time necessary and going into nature and sort of being a child as part of grieving?  Am I getting that right?  It's only been a year and a half for me.  I feel improved, but definitely not the same as I have ever felt before.  It is hard to think of how long it will take to get used to these new feelings.  Like getting to know a stranger sometimes.  Only the stranger is me!

PP

[Portia]

Hi Sela, this is something I’ve been ‘working’ on I think/feel. Getting to the point where I truly believe that whatever I feel, it’s what I feel and I gotta deal with it. I think before that I was working to someone else’s agenda (the little someone in my head that’s not the true ‘me’, the tape from my parents). That agenda was: “I must get well! I must do it the ‘right’ way! And if I feel like something isn’t right for me, hey, I must be wrong/stupid/bad” etc and..... rewind

Maybe I've misunderstood some people?     I think I might not have realized that their way of surviving (which could seem a little nasty to me) might be the exact thing that was needed in order for that person to make it through whatever they were withstanding.

I guess my questions would be: are those strategies hurting other people (like abusing to feel relief, in which case they suck) and is the person going through, or remaining stuck, using their particular strategy? And who decides whether someone is stuck in denial or is surviving successfully? Is denial a legitimate survival strategy? I guess…..yes? because otherwise…..the system would break down. Ow making my head hurt.

that getting the feelings out is the major factor in getting well (and that not doing that.....denying feelings.....holding them in.......pretending everything is ok.....being positive when it's not what one usually does........can set people back

I don’t know Sela. A terrific shock to someone in denial might send them over the edge – an overwhelm of emotion that gets repressed/managed by one of the more serious survival strategies such as schizophrenia? Don't know.

On the other hand, I remember you talking to me about behavioural stuff / positive thinking and me saying nope, nope, not having it, no thanks! I think if people are prone to being influenced (people-pleasers) then yes, the positive thinking thing may well have an adverse effect (because they’ll be doing it to please and conform, not because it feels good to them). Does it set them back? I doubt it sets anyone back: they might remain in the same place, but I doubt it could make it worse……unless in the case of an illness, their worry about trying to be positive and not being a perfect patient actually makes them more ill. Interesting. So yes, trying to impose our thoughts on other people can have a bad effect. I guess the point is trying to understand it from their point of view ...... and thinking also....are they hurting others in their strategies?? Ooooo moral stuff. (I've been reading about murderers and other abusers and basically, for some people, there is No Answer. I don't like that but it seems to be how it is.)

PennyPlant:

Just need to work on learning what my emotions are and being brave enough to feel them.

I guess being brave is the key. Facing and not turning away from yourself. Where an N’s shame is involved though, I can see that this ain’t gonna work. The survival strategy is hiding self from self. And it won't shift!

I think I’ve learned the difference between helpful positive thinking and harmful positive thinking!!!  Thanks for the thought-food Sela. I am now receptive to positive ideas and I know from my own experience that I can reprogram some of those old tapes. I’m not afraid of mind-control any more! At least, not as long as I’m the one doing it to myself. I have you to thank for your persistence there with me; it took a long time, or rather, i took a long time, hey maybe I did it myself too? High fives all round

As Storm says, it’s about being real. I like that.

Marisa, is it bad, to want to avoid things that upset you? If it’s not necessary for you to confront this day in day out, and you don’t want to, that seems healthy to me. Why make yourself sad if it isn’t necessary? You’re allowed to say, no thanks, not for me, if that feels right for you. i think.

Edit in

PP

that they can hardly bear to buy a sympathy card when someone they know has a loss.

Just read your post above and was hit by this. I have huge trouble. I dislike buying any kind of card. It seems so trite. Cards are ……….an issue for me. I guess I’ve received so many insincere, manipulative cards from parents that I can’t deal with it ‘normally’. I can’t handle cards! Ridiculous but recent events have proved it to me, and I’ve only seen it now, having seen your words. I am triggered by cards. Sheesh. Just wanted to state that because it’s so banal.

[Hopalong]

like abusing to feel relief, in which case they suck

 

Portia you are so loveable!

 

Hops

[Portia]

hiya Hops, not intended for sure. Erm, that feels a bit triggering now, should I change it d'you think?

[Hop guest]

Hey P,
Not sure what "that" and "it" referred to but assuming it's what I quoted...

I thought it was a wonderfully honest, blunt and in a way sweet (I'm sure you loooove being called "sweet") thing to say.

I loved it a lot because it sounded like my daughters' friends when she was young. They'd just say, "Mean People Suck." I saw that on T-shirts at one point and had the same reaction.

It was refreshing, it just tickled me. (There is a lot of rationally tight questioning and writing in your posts that I love too, this one just hit me in an unexpected, happy place. Maybe it came from your inner 14-y/o? I like her!)

(((Portia)))

Hops

[pennyplant]

Edit in

PP

that they can hardly bear to buy a sympathy card when someone they know has a loss.

Just read your post above and was hit by this. I have huge trouble. I dislike buying any kind of card. It seems so trite. Cards are ……….an issue for me. I guess I’ve received so many insincere, manipulative cards from parents that I can’t deal with it ‘normally’. I can’t handle cards! Ridiculous but recent events have proved it to me, and I’ve only seen it now, having seen your words. I am triggered by cards. Sheesh. Just wanted to state that because it’s so banal.

I am triggered by MOTHER'S DAY CARDS!  Because I am one to want the card to say what I mean--well, have you read through Mother's Day cards?  It takes me a good half hour to find one I can live with.  And it seems like you HAVE to send one.  I don't even like to get them but I try to be gracious when I do.  It probably started the year I became a mother at 18 and my own mother had been so completely, well, harmful would be a way to put it.  Telling me to not look so pregnant, etc.  So, I kind of hate that day and those cards for going on 26 years now.  This year I bought the card early so it would be off my conscience right away     .

I can see where you're coming from on that one, Portia.

PP

[MarisaML]

It's not bad, it's the best you can do.  If people understand why you can't always face it, then I'm sure they shouldn't hold it against you.  After my father died, I must have had the opportunity to attend six funerals in one year.  At first I was almost eager to attend because it was fresh in my mind how good it felt that people came to the funeral home for us.  But after awhile, I started dreading them.  It was too much too soon.

Thanks for that PennyPlant.  Yes, I know what you mean about being eager to sympathise with others.  And I did like you and really dread going to funerals now.  Especially in the past couple of years I've attended the funerals of my Stepdad's family and I was close to them.  And they have been buried right alongside my Mom.  So when I go to the cemetary I look all around me at all the people I once shared Christmas Dinners with and now they've passed on.  My Mom started out alone in that family section of the cemetary but it is really feeling up now.   

MarisaML, did you make the comment before about giving yourself all the time necessary and going into nature and sort of being a child as part of grieving?  Am I getting that right?  It's only been a year and a half for me.  I feel improved, but definitely not the same as I have ever felt before.  It is hard to think of how long it will take to get used to these new feelings.  Like getting to know a stranger sometimes.  Only the stranger is me!

Yes, I did.  I was speaking of trying to reconnect yourself with the world.  A year and a half is not long.  It isn't long at all.  I know what you mean about getting to yourself again.  I feel like I changed into another person after losing my Mom.  She took a big piece of my soul when she died and that part of me has died also.  I was so confused by my 'odd' ways of feeling that I checked out a couple of books out of the library on grieving.  They helped me immensely.  One book stated that sometimes it takes a person a year to go through the grieving process and sometimes it takes several years!  The first year was the hardest by far but it took probably 10 years for me to let go of the intense feelings that I was going to lose another person close to me.  Does that make sense.  For a couple of years I had trouble making bonds with people because of this strong feeling that they would eventually leave me to.  This was probably not only because my Mom died but because my B Dad left us when I was 3.  So I don't have either of my B parents and it does hurt.  Someone stated that they couldn't look at Mother's Day Cards.  I can't either.  Mother's Day is definitely hard.  My Birthday's hard.  Christmas... well you get the point.  So here I am 11 years later and I still have 'triggers' to my grief.  Did/Do you have a numb dream-like feeling after your loss??  I did for a year.  I hated that. 

Marisa, is it bad, to want to avoid things that upset you? If it’s not necessary for you to confront this day in day out, and you don’t want to, that seems healthy to me. Why make yourself sad if it isn’t necessary? You’re allowed to say, no thanks, not for me, if that feels right for you. i think.

Thanks.  For a while it used to be so fresh on my mind and heart that I spoke freely about her all the time.  But I guess after 11 years I have to decide to live my life and not obsess too much.

Hi Sela, this is something I’ve been ‘working’ on I think/feel. Getting to the point where I truly believe that whatever I feel, it’s what I feel and I gotta deal with it. I think before that I was working to someone else’s agenda (the little someone in my head that’s not the true ‘me’, the tape from my parents). That agenda was: “I must get well! I must do it the ‘right’ way! And if I feel like something isn’t right for me, hey, I must be wrong/stupid/bad” etc and..... rewind

That's all you can do.  Just be true to yourself.  You don't HAVE to feel a certain way.  These things come about in their own ways.  And it's just not helpful to try to force your thinking and feeling.

[pennyplant]

MarisaML, did you make the comment before about giving yourself all the time necessary and going into nature and sort of being a child as part of grieving?  Am I getting that right?  It's only been a year and a half for me.  I feel improved, but definitely not the same as I have ever felt before.  It is hard to think of how long it will take to get used to these new feelings.  Like getting to know a stranger sometimes.  Only the stranger is me!

Yes, I did.  I was speaking of trying to reconnect yourself with the world.  A year and a half is not long.  It isn't long at all.  I know what you mean about getting to yourself again.  I feel like I changed into another person after losing my Mom.  She took a big piece of my soul when she died and that part of me has died also.  I was so confused by my 'odd' ways of feeling that I checked out a couple of books out of the library on grieving.  They helped me immensely.  One book stated that sometimes it takes a person a year to go through the grieving process and sometimes it takes several years!  The first year was the hardest by far but it took probably 10 years for me to let go of the intense feelings that I was going to lose another person close to me.  Does that make sense.  For a couple of years I had trouble making bonds with people because of this strong feeling that they would eventually leave me to.  This was probably not only because my Mom died but because my B Dad left us when I was 3.  So I don't have either of my B parents and it does hurt.  Someone stated that they couldn't look at Mother's Day Cards.  I can't either.  Mother's Day is definitely hard.  My Birthday's hard.  Christmas... well you get the point.  So here I am 11 years later and I still have 'triggers' to my grief.  Did/Do you have a numb dream-like feeling after your loss??  I did for a year.  I hated that. 

Yes, I was very surprised by how I felt after my father died.  The whole process of his illness and taking care of so much for him had been stressful on many levels (one stresser--I had resentment, going way back, that I decided to repress because I felt it was more important to take good care of him, as best I could anyway.)  But after he died and after the first few days when I could stay home and just wander around looking at pictures and getting up in the middle of the night to sit in his chair--I felt something switch off in me and I had the strangest sensation that something was not right with me.  What I have called it was, it felt like I was "standing beside myself" all the time.  This feeling lasted for more than a year.  It was very upsetting to me but I had no clue of what to do with it other than try to act "normal" in public.

The funeral home sent me some grief booklets every few months and it helped me to recognize some of the sensations and behaviors they described.  Didn't make it easier or faster but I felt more normal and hopeful.

I turned a corner this past January when something happened with a friend who told me she was healing (from a problem of her own) and it clicked with me that I am healing too.  A few things like that happened to shake me out of it a little.

When you have said it has taken so very many years for you--well, I can see myself taking a good long time too.  I am truly a different person now.

It just so happened that my father died right after my youngest son graduated high school and went to college, just a lot of losses over the years, and therefore the circumstances of my life changed as well.  It was amazing how used to taking care of my father we had become.  It took a long time to realize that I didn't have to worry about his food, appointments, money, etc., etc.  There had been many times over the years that we drove out to his place every other day for weeks or months to check on him or keep him company.  In fact, it is part of why our social life slowly eroded away.  Now, we have to start from scratch with friends, family, etc.  And pretty much they all moved on without us during all the years we were unavailable to go out and have fun.

On another thread someone said she was suffering from "complicated grief".  I went and looked it up (Yahoo search) and it fits with my situation.  There is so much in my head to deal with at times.

That idea of losing another person--that has always been a problem for me due to people moving away, friends turning on me in childhood, us moving away a lot, etc.  After my father died, I became frantic about the people I cared about forgetting about me in the busy-ness of daily life.  I'm still having a problem with that.  Not really sure how to describe it more fully without details that I don't want to get into right now.  But yes, loss and fear of loss is still a problem for me.

I like how you described re-connecting with the world.  It fits with my style.  I have to fight with myself over how lonely it sounds at times.  But at heart I'm something of a loner anyway.  I'm going to try and give myself the time I need for this and just see what happens.

PP

[MarisaML]

PennyPlant,

I felt something switch off in me and I had the strangest sensation that something was not right with me.  What I have called it was, it felt like I was "standing beside myself" all the time.  This feeling lasted for more than a year.  It was very upsetting to me but I had no clue of what to do with it other than try to act "normal" in public.  I described the 'feeling' as numbness, but it sounds like we went through the same type of feeling.  I have to wonder why we would feel that way?

I like how you described re-connecting with the world.  It fits with my style.  I have to fight with myself over how lonely it sounds at times.  But at heart I'm something of a loner anyway.  I'm going to try and give myself the time I need for this and just see what happens.  Thank you, I'm glad that I could help in some way.  I can relate about being a loner.  I'm a true introvert, though I can be a very talkative one.  And it sounds like you may be introverted as well.   Introverts need time by themselves to heal.  It does sound like we have a lot in common and I would like to hear more from you and how you're healing.   And anyway that I can help please do let me know. 

[guestfornow]

The Invitation

[/b][/i]

It doesn't interest me what you do for a living. I want to know what you ache for and if you dare to dream of meeting your heart's longing.

It doesn't interest me how old you are. I want to know if you will risk looking like a fool for love, for your dream, for the adventure of being alive.

It doesn't interest me what planets are squaring your moon. I want to know if you have touched the center of your own sorrow, if you have been opened by life's betrayals or have become shriveled and closed from fear of further pain. I want to know if you can sit with pain, mine and your own, without moving to hide it or fade it or fix it.

I want to know if you can be with joy, mine or your own, if you can dance with the wildness and let the ecstasy fill you to the tips of your fingers and toes without cautioning us to be careful, to be realistic, to remember the limitations of being a human.

It doesn't interest me if the story you are telling me is true. I want to know if you can disappoint another to be true to yourself; if you can bear the accusation of betrayal and not betray your own soul; if you can be faithless and therefore trustworthy.

I want to know if you can see beauty, even when it's not pretty, every day, and if you can source your own life from its presence.

I want to know if you can live with failure, yours and mine, and still stand on the edge of the lake and shout to the silver of the full moon, "yes!"

It doesn't interest me to know where you live or how much money you have. I want to know if you can get up, after the night of grief and despair, weary and bruised to the bone, and do what needs to be done to feed the children.

It doesn't interest me who you know of how you came to be here. I want to know if you will stand in the center of the fire with me and not shrink back.

It doesn't interest me where or what or with whom you have studied. I want to know what sustains you, from the inside, when all else falls away.

I want to know if you can be alone with yourself and if you truly like the company you keep in the empty moments.

[/b]

[reallyME]

Guest for now, what a TREMENDOUS POST!  that pretty much said it ALL!  Really gets ya thinkin

[Portia]

I had a good cry when I read the invitation and then I thought it deserves an acceptance:

I ache for nothing and everything. My heart has a longing  - to know when I will die.

I don’t have a dream, being alive is an adventure.

Show the pain; pain is everywhere. I don’t know if I have touched the centre of my sorrow; how can I know? What is my sorrow other than everyone’s sorrow?

It’s better not to jump off a cliff thinking you can fly, unless death is flight, in which case - .
I will dance like a dervish (and have done)!

I have been accused of betrayal many times. My mind changes and what was true to me yesterday may not be true today. Can you betray your soul or are you more likely to try to kill it? I don’t think the soul can be betrayed but it can be strangled, suffocated, and die.
 
Everything holds interest if you are interested, whether you think it is beautiful or ugly.

Failure is an illusion. Success is an illusion.
 
Children need feeding, if you have food to feed them.

If we’re afraid of death, we’re afraid of life.
 
This is all there is and there is no argument, no questions, no answers. If this isn’t enough, look again?
 
Oh yes

[reallyME]

huh?  Well, I agree with the part about feeding the children.  We're supposed to care for widows and orphans and wounded people.  The rest...well, over my head I guess.

RM

[Portia]

I guess you're correct Laura.