Anything

[portia guest]

Hiya Sela

Truly, if we respect people's rights as human beings, we are being caring, I think, without expressing emotion.
words and words and language…caring care ‘take care’ care for, be mindful of

Yes I guess. Or even we’re being ‘thoughtful’!

Thank you for putting up with me….

True story

There was a squawking and scrabbling outside in the garden. I went out and found one of the local cats running off with some bird in its mouth. Tried to follow but was interrupted by a neighbour, wondering what was going on (the gardens are open-plan, no fences or walls). Talked about the increase in cats, catching birds, entrails left on the steps. He goes indoors and I go to find the cat, which is sitting cutely in the long, uncut grass. Of course about a foot away, lying inert and bedraggled, is a bird, a Starling. It’s alive so I pick it up, hide its eyes and carry it back, asking partner indoors to find a cardboard box, which he does. We leave bird in box for a while to calm down. Wonder if it’s hurt. After a while the scrabbling starts up in the box so we agree, we’ll let it out, see if it’s okay.

Open the box, bird runs out, squawking like heck. It doesn’t fly, one of its wings seems out of shape. It’s still squawking loudly when the darn same cat runs – not too quickly – out from under a car and grabs the bird in its mouth. Oh sweet nature in full colour before our eyes. It wasn’t pleasant. Cat takes live bird to same place, drops it and waits, I retrieve bird again, repeat box treatment.

Now what. Can’t let the bird out here again; I’ll take it down to the nearest field. What if it’s hurt, damaged, what about that wing? If it’s now hurt beyond flying, if it’s hurt beyond living, I’ll kill it, I hate suffering. I find a large stone and take that, with the box, to the field, turning over the idea of whacking this tiny bird with this stone (can I do it quickly and kill it in one blow? Will I bodge it up? Will I bottle out and end up emotional?). I decide I can do it and to put my feelings to one side: if this bird is injured, I’ll kill it.

I lay the box sideways and open the lid away from me. Nothing happens. I wait. Then the bird seems to explode from the box, running fast and again, squawking itself silly. I panic, thinking, is it injured, can it survive, is it in pain? It runs and reaches the long grass where it disappears and goes silent. All I can see is the top of the grass moving as it continues, moving more slowly now. 

I walk back home, pondering. Did I have any right to decide whether the bird should live or die? How could I know if it was in pain or not; how do I know how a bird feels pain, how it processes the feelings? I was struck by one thought: it wanted to live, it was fighting to survive. That instinct, or will, or simply – wish - to survive. If the wish to live is there, how can anyone to decide otherwise? Similarly, if the wish to die is there, if the creature gives up the will to live, if the creature lies back, death in its eyes…then death will come I think. I suppose if I witness pain so strong that a creature cries out, if it can’t move, if its cries seem to me to be those of suffering, if its cries are inconsolable …. then killing would *seem* to be moral. But making any decision on behalf of any other creature, it’s a moral problem I think. 

Except for the tiny storm flies that climb inside the layers that make up the screen of this notebook, and then die there, leaving their slowly disintegrating bodies making smudges on this Word page. They just need educating not to be so stupid! Or maybe they’re leaving their mark and they’re doing it on purpose? Self-sacrifices to the electronic age, tiny pleas to turn off the machines? Nope. Just bugs. Maybe curious bugs? 

The heat - up to 33 C today and set to rise - is starting to affect my brain......more another day...(exit with sqwidgy brain sounds...)

[Sela]

Hi all:

Yes P.  Language.  Tricky stuff eh?  Good bird story (very unlike a fish story  ):

I want to dissect this paragraph for fun.....to look at emotion vs moral/cognitive thinking:

Why not?  It's too darn hot to do anything else here today!

Now what. Can’t let the bird out here again; I’ll take it down to the nearest field. What if it’s hurt, damaged, what about that wing? If it’s now hurt beyond flying, if it’s hurt beyond living, I’ll kill it, I hate suffering. I find a large stone and take that, with the box, to the field, turning over the idea of whacking this tiny bird with this stone (can I do it quickly and kill it in one blow? Will I bodge it up? Will I bottle out and end up emotional?). I decide I can do it and to put my feelings to one side: if this bird is injured, I’ll kill it.

This part:

Now what. Can’t let the bird out here again; I’ll take it down to the nearest field. What if it’s hurt, damaged, what about that wing?

Thinking.  Clearly logical eh?  Your decision to take the bird elsewhere is certainly a moral one.....to spare the bird having another wrestle with that cat eh?
And the wing .....birds need to fly to be safe.  So an injured wing is cause for concern.  Logical.  Concerned.  Emotion is entering the equation.  You are being thoughtful of the bird.  It seems so.

if it’s hurt beyond living, I’ll kill it, I hate suffering. I find a large stone and take that, with the box, to the field, turning over the idea of whacking this tiny bird with this stone

Your decision to bring the large stone stems from your severe dislike of suffering.  Your personal feeling about another's torment directs your thoughts now.  You think about whacking the bird with this stone.
Something I bet you don't do on a usual or daily basis.  Quite out of the ordinary behaviour for you, I suspect?

(can I do it quickly and kill it in one blow? Will I bodge it up? Will I bottle out and end up emotional?).

Fear emerging.  Another feeling eh?  Thoughts respond to it.  Thinking challenges it and over rides it.  Sets fear aside.

  I decide I can do it and to put my feelings to one side: if this bird is injured, I’ll kill it.

Fear gone.  Decision to spare bird prolonged pain (due to emotional response of your distaste for suffering)
is now made.  All other feelings about killing and thoughts of the right or wrong /moral reasons for doing so.....not mentioned or not considered or found not as much priority (which?).

Major turning point in scenario:

Did I have any right to decide whether the bird should live or die? How could I know if it was in pain or not; how do I know how a bird feels pain, how it processes the feelings? I was struck by one thought: it wanted to live, it was fighting to survive.

At this point......you set your own fears, feelings and reasons for your actions away and let your brain ....take over, I think.  "It was fighting to survive" and you realized, must have, that it was not your right to decide to make it die.  Otherwise, you would have chased that bird down and clomped it's noggin' with that rock right?

It's a great story P.  Thanks for sharing.  I looked at it from the point that feelings then thoughts emerged.  How do you think it went?  Which came first, if you recall?

For me.....I think feeling would come first there.  I think I might see the cat and bird going at it and feel then think. 

As a side order........how about the cat?  What do you think/feel about him?

  Sela

PS:  On edit:

You're easy to put up with.

[Hops]

(I am making all this totally up but will make it sound declarative anyway):

Harrumpphh. (clears throat attempting to sound philosophical):

I don't think that emotion, cognition, instinct and moral awareness are separate functions. I recognize that science has taught us different things dominate in different areas of the brain. (Who am I to argue with the amazing MRI?) But there are other pathways we haven't charted, and some we never will, that may explain why our chests ache...so far from the brain...when our hearts are broken. Or...why not a pain in the palm?

I also think human emotion is integrated with morality. The love and protectiveness we feel for our helpless infants may be biological...but that's just a word...they may also be reflections of our sense of obligation, a moral awareness that's like...grownup love. When we become numb...as in, believe in Thou Shalt Not Kill but change our minds over certain wars and capital punishment for certain crimes...wwlll, cowpoke, I think that's our human failure. To keep evolving. Morally.

(Don't look at me, this is hypothetical, or isn't a lot of philosophy?) 

BabyPhilo over and out.

Ta for now,
Hops

[Sela]

Hey Hops:

I like your totally made up declaration.  It makes sense.

Do you think people can sort of ....manually separate the functions then (when they wish to ....turn off their feelings.....for instance)? Or that they do it kind of on autopilot sometimes....when shocked (as in an emergency or sudden event)......as it seemed to me happened to Portia, when she realized the bird was fighting to survive?

Or would you take a shot at dissecting that paragraph, for fun, your way??

Do you think it is impossible to function, for a period, entirely on emotion, cognition, instinct or moral awareness alone?  Or not?

Your post got me thinking about those of us who come from an abusive environments/relationships and whether or not we might have a harder/easier time of doing that separation thingy (intentionally trying to work on feelings, thoughts, what our guts are screaming or what we've decided are right and wrong)?  I wonder if what happened in our past messes that up at all?

Also, I wonder if our MRI's are any different than....."normal"???  And whether or not there is a cumulative effect?

What got me thinking there was when I thought of the mothers who don't have (separable or not) deep emotion, cognition, instinct or much awareness of how to mother/love/care for their babies.      Ya know?  The one's totally lacking that totally protective feelings for their helpless infants?

I guess science tells us they are lacking but I wonder if they don't just have wicked turn off switches??
It would actually be much nicer (in my head) if it were just a simple biological misfunction/abnormality.

Sela

[Hopalong]

Hi Sela,
I would love to do the deconstruct thing but my brain had better save the big juice for the sermon...will try it sometime though!

When I Google something like "MRI evidence personality disorder" I find so much that makes me feel that even if it is so far intuitive, rather than empirically proven (since they concentrate on the most drastic illnesses).....that to me, it just makes common sense that abusive or neglectful parents would have something different about their brains.

In the same way that our hearts are in our chests...emotions are in the brain too. So in people who have something seriously wrong with their nurturing ability, there might well be a biological reason in addition to other reasons. Character, to me, would be likely made up of a lot of pieces from all those different overlapping areas.

I think there are times when pure instinct is at work: blood lust, orgasm, hunger, protect the child. However, some people are never violent and are repelled by blood lust, are anorgasmic, anorexic, or don't protect their child. So pure instinct maybe doesn't work in the same way in every single human?

Consider the cheerful topic of cannibalism, if you will. I read the book about the Andes Mtns. plane crash. If I remember right, a few of the team could not participate, even to survive....? I may remember that wrong.

this is probably more evidence of why I'd made a lousy philosopher!

gotta run, but one more--the most important--thing I wanted to say to you:

Also, I wonder if our MRI's are any different than....."normal"???  And whether or not there is a cumulative effect?

Brains are plastic and can and do change with new experience, MRIs show this. So if there's a cumulative effect of abuse, which makes sense, then there is also a cumulative effect of repeated positive experiences: the giving and receiving of acts of love, altruism, celestial music, friendship, laughter, massage, the scent of lavender.

See what I mean?

love and lavender,
Hops

[Sela]

Hi Hops:

Thanks for that reminder and hope about the brain's ability to adapt and change for the better under positive circumstances.  Very important stuff there!!  I think I see what you mean and I believe it too.

it just makes common sense that abusive or neglectful parents would have something different about their brains.

Sounds like a reasonable construct.  Which got me thinking back a page on this thread to the link about "assumptions":

http://www.ioa.com/~shermis/socjus/assumpt.html

Which talks about constructs and I really like this line:

You do not know the process of knowing. All you know is what the process came up with, which is the product.

Interesting to think about that in relation to how we evolve under abusive conditions.  How could we possibly remember every event, every second, every feeling, and understand every effect we experienced? (who would want to?  Not me!    Too much information for my poor little one functioning brain cell).  So actually.....we probably don't know the process of knowing......we only know some of what happened and how we turned out....so far.

Maybe that's what I want?  To understand the process better and then work toward any change that seems beneficial/necessary/advisable???  I feel a need to know the product better too (   seems silly to say I want to know myself better but I do.  I lost part of me during traumatic periods and I'm still trying to track that down  ).

Maybe that's why I keep reading about behaviour and the theories about reasons for it (in order to try to better understand the process of how I got to be me?) and that might be a futile waste of time?  Who knows?  Maybe the process doesn't matter as much as the product?

And certainly, as you reminded, the process of improving the product is so much nicer.

  Sela

ps:  sending you large huge cyber (((((((((((((((((((((((((Hugs)))))))))))))))))))) and the fresh scent of sweet peas!

[moonlight52]

I am actively living a more loving, kinder life and am not so preoccupied with self and am more present for my loved ones better
late than never .

moon

[Hopalong]

Ahhhh, sweet peas! Thanks (((((((Sela)))))

we probably don't know the process of knowing......we only know some of what happened and how we turned out....so far.

  I like this a lot!

I lost part of me during traumatic periods and I'm still trying to track that down.

Hear, HEAR. Good for you.

Maybe that's why I keep reading about behaviour and the theories about reasons for it (in order to try to better understand the process of how I got to be me?) and that might be a futile waste of time?

This makes TOTAL sense to me and I don't think it's time wasted one nanobit. I think different people learn things in different ways, and for inquisitive analytical types reading for insight is a GODSEND. I think whatever path you take to reconstruct/reassemble/love back into shape yourself is just fine. I certainly was SAVED by reading, but in my case it was more behavioral stuff, like Judith Sills. As to your saturation in it, I think we individually reach a critical mass with certain kinds of efforts as we learn. When you're ready for a different kind of tool, or adjusting the balance of your healing tools, you'll know it. (I think part of how you help yourself is working so hard to help others here. Thank you!)

Then at some moment comes a great big shift, kind of like this:

I am actively living a more loving, kinder life and am not so preoccupied with self and am more present

(((((Moon))))), shedding light as always.

Hops

[Sela]

The Butterfly

A man found a cocoon of a butterfly
One day a small opening appeared
He sat and watched the butterfly for several hours
It struggled to force its body through that little hole
Then it seemed to stop making any progress
It appeared as if it had gotten as far as it could
And it could go no farther.

So the man decided to help the butterfly
He took a pair of scissors and snipped off
The remaining bit of the cocoon.

The butterfly then emerged easily, BUT,
It had a swollen body and small, shriveled wings
He continued to watch the butterfly
He expected that, at any moment, the wings would enlarge
And the body would contract
Neither happened!
In fact, the butterfly spent the rest of its life crawling
Around with a swollen body and shriveled wings.
It was never able to fly.

The man acted with well-intentioned kindness
But he didn't understand the consequences.
The restricting cocoon and the struggle required to get
Through the tiny opening, were nature's way of forcing fluid
From the body of the butterfly once it achieved it's freedom
From the cocoon.

Sometimes struggles are exactly what we need in our life.
If nature allowed us to go through life without any
Obstacles, it would cripple us.
We would not be as strong as we could have been
And we could never fly
Have a great day, great life, and struggle a little.
Then fly!

Nikos Kazantzakis

[moonlight52]

OH SELA ,

Thank you, as I come to understand the"gift within the problem "and understand the struggle you have the just right poem to express what is in my heart.

 And also the author is Greek I have a fondness of the Greek culture.

Moon

[Sela]

You warmed my heart by posting here......Moon.

Thankyou (((((((((Moon))))))))

  Sela

[Sela]

Hope,
I'm respecting your wish not to be approached on that other thread so I'll put this here and hope that you won't be offended.

I meant that I take responsibility for bringing about this confrontation

if I upset you in any way, you'll ask me directly and not talk to others

Yes, Portia. That's what I'll do.

No one can do any better than this.  It is an wonderful example of fairness!

I'm glad you apologized to Portia, Hope.   Maybe you've changed your mind about her?  I hope so.

I take full responsibility for my part too.  I must not have used the right words, which seems to have given you the impression I was judging you.  That was not my intention (and it's not up to me).  Also, for giving an equally "mean" description of your words, I'm sorry for hurting your feelings.
Not what I wanted at all.  I wanted only to ask you to consider different possibilities of Portia's intentions, which I believe to be honest and helpful and to look closer at how the words might be seen.
I did apologise for saying that I wasn't trying to help, when really I was trying to help, and I meant that apology sincerely.
I must not have said that clearly enough and it may have come across as sarcasm, so I'm trying even harder now to be clear.

I meant to quote your words, which I thnk you took as my twisting them and to express how they came across to me....how I was perceiving them......how I might feel if they were said to me.

I am generally a kind person.  I have a big stupid heart that feels the bite of words I perceive to be hurtful (maybe inappropriately, maybe incorrectly, too sometimes)....even when those words are not spoken to or about me....but to or about someone else, and especially to or about
someone I consider undeserving of them.
I hope you will not see my post as an invasion of your boundary but rather as my voicing my responsibility in the conflict between you and I.  Also as my regrets and my wish to be understood and I hope you will believe me and things will work out better between us.

I didn't come to this board to watch people hurting eachother.  I came here because I've been hurt and need support and because I'm trying to heal from some big time major traumas.
I have a hard time even speaking about some things and I try to offer what I can, if I think it might help.  I don't speak perfectly because that's impossible for anyone.
I truly have no ill feelings toward anyone here, even now.

I can and do forgive.  And when I say I'm sorry, I mean I'm sorry.  It's what my heart tells me to do.  It's what feels right.  It's the only way I know how to avoid becoming like those who have abused me.

Sela

[Sela]

Hello all!

It's too hot to sleep so here I am.  Today I've been thinking a lot about cause and effect.  Just about everything has a cause and effect doesn't it?  I think so.  I was thinking about that in relation to my discomfort and probably that of lot's of people here too.

For me....the cause of my discomfort is abuse and I'm here trying to identify, examine and possibly change the effect of that abuse (thus, ease my discomfort).  So many people here have had relationships with someone who has abused them....be that parent or partner, and I bet there are some who can really relate to the idea of there being a cause and effect of those experiences.

Cause  effect

Abuse    ?? effect

So we have much in common, in the cause department here, I think, and it seems some similarities and differences in the effect department (which is different for each person .....it looks like).

For instance, when reading about the effects of abuse, there is often mention of people's ability to trust being distorted or damaged.  This makes total sense to me because if we can't trust those we're supposed to have close relationships with (such as a parent or partner....because they've abused us and thus destroyed trust)....who can we trust?  So it seems like that might logically be the "norm" effect of abuse??  Could be, I think.

abuse  doesn't trust others

As for the cause of inability to trust, a theory that comes up frequently that basically explains it goes something like this:

When trust fails to develop between a child and his or her primary care giver (usually the mother), that child has a difficult time developing trust with anyone.  I think that's pretty much the way Erik Erikson described it??  (putting all of this in my own words here, the way I understand it).

But I'm weird.  I'm like an ox.  Stubborn right down to my hooves.    I embrace a particular theory that says I can choose what I think, which will have an effect on what I feel and do.  I made up my mind to trust, regardless of those who have seriously violated mine (not usually including those people...it depends on much... but what I mean is I refuse to lose trust in everybody else.  That just doesn't seem fair to me so I refuse to let that happen).    Haha! It might be said that I have an "abnormal" non-effect of abuse.  I still trust most people. 

abuse  trusts most people = weird 

Or maybe it's not so weird?  I've also read that another effect of abuse can be an over abundance of trusting.  The explanation for that one is that because there is a deep seated need to feel loved and wanted, a basic human need that was not met as a result of/due to abuse, the person goes around trusting, even those who are dangerous, in hopes of developing the trust that should have developed with their primary caregiver, or in their failed relationship/s (not sure who's theory that one is but it makes sense to me too, I think).
 
abuse  trusts too much

In relationships, it seems the basic belief is that once trust is broken, it can be very difficult to build it up again.  Again, this is the sort of "expected norm effect" of which I have a rather "abnormal" non-effect because I'm so willing to let by gones be by gones and start over, with most people (but I do lose trust in those who seem dangerous, so I don't think I fall into the "trusts too much" category).

trust broken  can be tough to rebuild

The reason I continue to trust is.....it's a choice.  For me, it's that simple.  I could easily decide otherwise (and I might some day) but so far, it's what I choose...how I choose to be.

I think some might get the idea that I just have a short memory, I keep on trusting, which isn't the case.  My memory is more like some kind of sorter, which is attached to some kind of elevator system or something.  It sends certain stuff off to be filed, usually for good, and only the essential info seems to stay in the "in-box".  Often this is the good stuff (that stays current for me) and sometimes, when necessary, it's the stuff that sets off alarms.

Why do I do that?  I think because I truly believe we are all just people.  We're all just trying to live.  We're all imperfect and trying hard to do our best.  We all make mistakes and we all make poor choices.  And here, on this board, we are all effected by abuse.  We all deserve to be trusted and to trust.  I guess I just have a really hard time stamping anyone as:  "Junk".

God don't make no junk.

I read that on this board somewhere, awhile back, and I like it.  I believe it too.  Sometimes, it's so hard to live what I believe.   Sometimes, it's really hard.

Anyhow, I just felt like sharing all that.  Hope someone can relate. 

Sweet dreams all!

  Sela

[reallyME]

Sela,

Your post blessed my socks off!  You spoke my own heart and actions almost better than I could have!  Thank you for telling us those wonderful words and explanations!

~Laura

[Hopalong]

Thank you, Sela. So well done. This has characterized most of my life, but in (very) recent years I'm finding more of a balance:

another effect of abuse can be an over abundance of trusting.  The explanation for that one is that because there is a deep seated need to feel loved and wanted, a basic human need that was not met as a result of/due to abuse, the person goes around trusting, even those who are dangerous, in hopes of developing the trust that should have developed with their primary caregiver, or in their failed relationship/s (not sure who's theory that one is but it makes sense to me too, I think).

abuse   trusts too much

Hops