Co-parenting with ex N

[mum]

Hi, everybody.  I have had a few interesting conversations with my ex recently regarding my son's poor progress in school.  My boy is a junior in high school.  He is very intellegent, but has a definite lazy streak when it comes to school.  In the past, he has always managed to get by, by a close margin.  In the past, his dad would also be out of the picture for long periods at a time, and he would be only with me, not going back and forth every weekend.  Lately, dad is around a lot.
      Yesterday, my son recieved his most dismal progress report so far... His dad went NUTS on him.  His dad keeps calling me (he is at dad's for one more night) and alternately blaming me (oh, FYI: our daughter gets straight A's so that arguement won't fly!) and spewing venom toward and about our son....uses threats of NOT sending him to a summer program this summer (his "birthday present" from dad from LAST YEAR) and basically restricting him even more than he already is (my kid has little or NO freedom when with dad).  Ex N has also, called back after being soooo pissed, to tell me "I am NOT that father like in the "Great Santini"
 (did any of you see that film.....I never brought that up....methinks he dost protest too much)....
then he also starts talking like a person who could actually have compassion for his son, or show the kid a little mercy (my suggestion).
     I am a little concerned that when he acts semi-caring, that I will let my guard down (this is the same guy who was emotionally abusive, cheated on me, berated me each day, took me to court and slung nasty legal mud, etc, and has prevented me from relocating and pursuing my life "because he can").  I want to do what's best for my son, but I do not trust this man, and with good reason.
      I believe his ego is so tied into his son's success at school, that he can't relax about it (not that the guy relaxes ever!  oh, except every night at "happy hour").
      Anyway, my son called me crying last night....feeling like a total loser, depressed, terrified that his dad will pull aside his straight A girlfriend again and tell her all about what a lousy student her boyfriend (my son) is.  My ex actually brags about that to me, like he has some cool, "in" relationship with her (told me twice so far) and my son counts it as one of the most humiliating moments of his life....
      Bottom line, though, my kids will tell me this stuff but will not tell dad.  They simply say they "can't", because the risk of his anger is too great.
     I suggested to my ex, that perhaps our son "gets" dad more and more pissed off the less and less he cares about school, that in a way, this is how he rebels.  What my ex cannot and will not hear (as in HOW DARE YOU< I REFUSE TO ACCEPT THAT FROM YOU!!) is that the kid is scared of him and this is his sad (as in it only really is hurting my son) way to secretly rebel against his control.
     I am going back to court soon, to attempt to change this "every weekend at dad's" thing.  Perhaps this all is happening so my kids finally get up the nerve to tell SOMEONE (other than me) how they feel about him/his controlling, I don't know.  I have avoided court again so far  because my kids don't want to be in the "hot seat" and because it's so expensive (I am already WAY in debt after losing my court case to be able to move), and because I really tend to wimp out/ get fried with the confrontation thing (I hate fighting).
Perhaps I need to stop pussyfooting around and just "pull the damn tooth" already with my kids and this mess.  Maybe that's what they need me to do.
Any thoughts?

[miaxo]

Hi Mum

I don't like to advocate using the legal system to settle disputes but when it comes to the best interests of the children sometimes one's hand is forced to use it.  It sounds like your children are old enough to tell a Judge what they would like.  The older they are the more likely a judge will listen to their requests.  

I am finding it next to impossible to co parent with my x N and that is why I am building my case for sole custody ( I would be able to make decisions without consulting with him).  Presently we have joint with me being the parent of primary residency.  He has them EOWE.  

If you truly feel in your heart that your children's emotional well being is at risk...get yourself a very good attorney and have it addressed.

Best wishes.
Mia

[Anonymous]

I don't know about where you are, mum, but our courts are usually sensitive to the preferences of teenagers, regardless of the reason.

What has worked for me with my husband and daughter (tension, tension - especially husband), is to clearly explain that you cannot get a response from a child that you yourself have not modeled and do not actively promote.

In other words, in your situation, if your husband does not model successful coping skills and encouragement to catch up one step at a time, help strategize for and create an environment (emotional and physical) that promotes success, and supplies hands-on support to his troubled student,  he simply won't see it any of that success out of your son, period.

Of course, for you and me these are elementary and almost instinctive  concepts (as parents and educators - I used to teach developmental disabilties), but for some people, especially the "old school" every student for himself-type, this is news and a highly experimental approach.

I don't know if you can get him to listen to you, but you could try "getting on his side", as in:

"I agree with you, he needs to improve. I was looking into ways of making it work and I stumbled across this information. Maybe we can both try this same strategy, no matter where he is at the time:

(Then fill in the blanks here as if you are reading from a textbook)

It sounds worth a try to me. What do you think? Do you have any ideas about stategies to help him improve? I'd like to work together on this, if you want to."

Sounds a little slimy, perhaps (and may make you feel like pulling your own teeth out to communicate this way), but agreeing with him on the basic problem (apparently, you do) and asking his opinion about an approach may help open the door just the tiniest crack.

Good luck, mum.

T

[Anonymous]

My thoughts:

--- Negotiating child rearing with your ex is not going to work. He cannot relate to children, he can't parent children. He's not qualified for that job.

--- Yes, go to court to lessen their visitation with dad. That is rescuing them from an abusive situation and giving your son a chance to raise his grades. He probably can't concentrate because of the stress with his father.

--- Children sometimes are exposed to abusive, nightmarish parents and they are forced to adapt to the situation (life being unfair). The main thing to help them is to allow them to process their feelings about the situation and come up with adaptations that work pretty well.

But do try to get them away from their father.

thanks,
bunny

[Anonymous]

T's suggestions are also useful. Rather than criticizing his parenting or making constructive suggestions [none of which will work], ask him to help you think of ways to help your son.

bunny

[mum]

Thanks so much for the responses.  I knew I would find some smart help here.
My ex actually called me again and said "remember when (son) was 5 and we (actually he, I never did) would yell at him in his soccer games and he would just sit down on the field and not move?  I think it might be like that."
I had just told him half hour before that our son was rebelling in some way with this....and then "he" came up with this...typical N, huh?
But it does show that he is capable of insight....or does it?  Is he just regurgitating what I said to make it look like he can think?
Whatever....  He knows my son called me without his knowledge last night (he monitors their phone calls even on their own cell phones that I pay for) and was pretty pissed...."when, WHEN did he tell you that?"  I asked him why that mattered and he hung up.
The good thing is that although this crap is still happening, I am not all that upset about it.  I just had a nice conversation with some colleagues and realized that this does not CONSUME we as it once did.
If I had been able to move, the kids would be away from him....but it's just not the way it turned out.  I don't have an emotional charge on the exchange between us the way I used to.  So that's progress.
But it does piss me off, and anger is useful because it tells us something.
T:  I agreed to email his teachers with a CC to my ex (his request, he hates that I have already set up a relationship with those teachers).  Maybe they will have some ideas.  And I think your "script" is awesome. I will use that.  Thanks again, all.

[Anonymous]

Everyone, no matter how screwball, is capable of at least a little insight...especially if they are distant enough from the immediate pain and guilt (using "we", instead of "I" helps him be courageous enough to articulate his insight, even if it's unfair. I've been down that road a couple of times, too.).

Scripts are awesome and very useful - even with non-disordered sensitive types. I find this approach particularly useful with my husband, whose deep self-loathing can cause him to over-react otherwise. If I'm careful and keep in mind his gut feelings, he can be surprisingly receptive and open-minded, take responsibility - and even be openly grateful later. Doesn't work perfectly every single time, but most of the time it does get good results.

If your ex is showing insight (even if he unfairly includes you as a guilty party - overlook that in favor of the insight itself), be sure to let him know he did good :"You know, you're right. Thanks for bringing that to my attention. I think we should look into that idea a little more, how about you?".

So long as you're forced to deal with him, it will probably help if you can remember that narcissists are deeply terrified and fragile people, and aren't truly in love with themselves so much as they are in constant need of validation and recognition. So give it where you can, for the sake of yourself and your kids. It may pay off in the long haul, especially if he can be led to think it's mostly his idea and is getting enough credit for what he does right and the insights he does have.

Hard to do, but maybe thinking of him as your pain-in-the-ass wayward man-child will help.

You're sharp, though, and I think you'll do just fine. The CC:s are a good idea, especially if you can get the teachers to address both of you in the salutations. Your Ex will get to feel important, and will therefore try harder.

T

[mum]

Well, all of the teachers I/we contacted say pretty much what we already know...my son is smart, articulate, kind, polite and totally unmotivated, except in one class the girls won't leave him alone and that also causes trouble.  
I'm thinking, hey, except for the unmotivated part, all the other things may spell a happy life....unfortunately , his dad won't see it that way.  His sister just pulled straight A's again today.....hmmm, hope my ex isn't stupid enough to do the comparison thing.

T: It is hard for me to pull the "kill em with kindness" thing, although I know it may work to some extent, but "confiding" even as a parent with him has been used against me in court,  so I hesitate to have much dialogue with him.  Actually, I am pretty leery already at the communication we have had today. I don't intuitively believe he operates with my children's best interest at heart, ever.  I am pretty sure he doesn't know how to.

I will let my ex say whatever he wants, even claim it as his own thought, but  the kids confide in me, and not him.  I have seen him  use anything he can get from me about the kids (Is ....having sex with his girlfriend?  Has he talked to you about that?) to advertise his "closeness" to them to the courts so I know he is always in "proving" mode.  I try to tell him nothing, but to ask his kids, but I fall for his "sincerety" sometimes.  I am occassionally surprised at what he doesn't know about our kids.  Or maybe he can't hear it.

My daughter told me that at dinner last week, she told her step mother she would probably never drink (alcohol) and the woman went OFF (probably after a glass or two of wine)...telling my daughter that "I was taught it was impolite to refuse alchohol and that in my family we were required to sip wine at dinner as early as 14!!!"  Nice step mom eH?  But my daughter told me that in her head, she thought; "yeah that makes sense, so and so, your dad is an mean alcoholic!"....I never knew that about the step/grandad...  Now I know why the woman married my ex: lots of bling bling and a pushy alcoholic....just like dad!

So, it brings me to another question: when we do talk to a court appointed evaluator or judge regarding visitation time, can I work this type of concern in, or will that sound like I am just bitching and concentrating on my ex and his wifes' crap?  It is something my kid told me, and in court anyway, it's called heresay, totally unproveable. (been there on that one).

I have a really good way of dealing with pain, and I can let it go and not concentrate on it. ....but sometimes it is action time, and I feel now, like I can do what needs to be done, without crumbling (because if I get his shit, I will just let it go anyway).

thanks for letting me express concerns here.

[mum]

I reread my ramblings and would like to apologize for not practicing what I preach today.  I am a huge advocate for acknowledging pain and moving through it, but I sure got stuck in it today (what a bore to read).
I wrote endlessly about the PROBLEM and focused ad nauseum on it.
Now currently focusing on lighting a candle instead of cursing the darkness, I will replace whining with action and let the rest go.  Thanks for listening.

[Brigid]

Mum,
I can't speak for your state, but my attorney has told me that since my daughter is 16, she can pretty much decide for herself how much time she wants to spend with her father despite what might be written in any court document.  I discussed suing for full custody, but he said that was a waste of time and as long as I had primary placement, I didn't need to worry about it. If you think that your children are being harmed by being with their father, do whatever it takes to fix the situation.  What could he do if they didn't go with him for a weekend?

I hope things get better.

[Anonymous]

Purging is necessary sometimes, mum. S"Okay! Tastes better than Syrup of Ipecac!

As some of us have said, most judges are pretty good about letting older kids decide how much time to spend with the non-custodial/secondary parent.

As for "kill with kindness", just do your best, if only because sufficient ego strikes will keep kitty's claws in.

If what you daughter says is true (re alcohol), and she's willing to submit a written statment to that effect, it may fly without her going into court (not hearsay at that point).Ask your lawyer and your daughter both how they feel about that, if you think it will help your daughter to stay away from people who will call her impolite if she refuses wine!

On your son, I would prbably still be concerned about the motivation, because of the risks of depression (or worse) later as he passes through his golden child years (So smart, so handsome, so talented, so nice) into an adulthood where his achievements don't jive with his abilities (trust me on this one, I know personally how crappy and depressing that is). See if you can help him find a passion -art, music, auto mechanics, bicycle racing, photography - anything where he can demonstrate actual, measurable achievement, since at this point school is apparently not where it's at for him. Maybe having a non-academic passion of some sort will help make school even a little more palatable - and maybe even lead to that "Happy life" later, regardless of school success.

As for the wayward man-child, roll your eyes, count to ten, smile (grimace), do what you must while keeping your most  important, vulnerable cards close.

You'll be fine. And with you as their Mom, so will your kids.

T

[mum]

Thanks,  Brigid, T!
       Brigid: if my kids were not so terrified of their father's reaction, I would have had them talk to a judge a long time ago.  I think they are getting stronger and will be able to soon.  My attorney will advise me, but I do know  I have to get and understanding from them what they actually want and are willing to do, visitation wise....hard to decifer with dad taxin still in their veins every week!  
      T: funny you should mention other "passions":  my son is one of the most talented young jazz musicians in our city.  He plays in several bands, and with an adult group as well.  
     He is insanely passionate about music and (not just his mom talking) extremely gifted in it.  It is, of course, the one class in school at which he consistently excells.  So, honestly, if he skips college entirely and just goes straight to a long term gig, I would not be surprised at all.  His other passion is a very kind, smart and beautiful girlfriend, who seems to have that "whole brain" thing going like my daughter (can do it all, although this girl plays classical, so maybe that's part of it).
     My son really is a perfect example of how the US educational system cannot and does not differeniate enough to include all types of people/learning styles, etc.  His school is not challenging at all, and if he applied himself at all, he would ace most of it.   He seems typical of very capable high schoolers, they either get straight A's or D's and F's, hardly anything in the middle.  
     We, as an educational system, do a horrible job, really.  There is one little left brain mail slot that we expect ALL children to succeed at and fit through and then call the rest failures (some of whom bypass the slot entirely and live beautiful, fulfilling lives despite the label of "failure")
Oh, gosh, I just got up on my soapbox, didn't I?  
After more than 2 decades in the educational system, I've still got that burr under my skin, and with this current political administration, it is very irritating!!!  Just waiting for that pendulum to swing back, that's all!
I teach art and am very "right brain" (big surprise, eh?)
     I am going to work with my son when he comes home this weekend, not at his missing school work (that he can deal with) but helping him "reprogram" his negative self talk regarding school.  He is helping me record an affirmation cd for myself, so I am going to have him make one for himself, too.  He lightens up whenever he feels there is a way out.  He knows there is, that's why he excells at music (he thinks and feels he can).  I think it will be fun, (after both kids do the usual "transition from dad's house" meltdown).
     Thanks for the support!

[Brigid]

It breaks my heart to hear the stories of how deeply the children are being hurt in these situations.  Its hard enough for we adults to have to process all the crap, but our children shouldn't have to also.  I guess I have to consider myself lucky that my N H wants very little to do with his children and would never get angry if they didn't want to be with him.  He has been so conflict avoidant his whole life that he wouldn't put himself in that situation.  My daughter is a varsity gymnast at her high school and he has not attended one single event this year and only went to 2 last year.  I'm not sure if this bothers her or if she is relieved.  When I ask anything about it, she says its fine.  

It is wonderful that your son has a passion for music.  Its so important that he has a place to go in his mind where he is accomplished and feels good.  I didn't catch his age in any of the writings, but there is no reason to think he could not turn that into a college opportunity.  North Texas State is a top jazz school and when you visit the campus, music flows from all the dorms.  Sometimes kids just need to get out in the world for awhile and then later decide to go back to school (I am a perfect example of that--graduated college at 29).  Maybe when he does not have to have regular interaction with your ex, his life will get better and he can rewrite the negative tape that flows through his head right now.  Good idea to make the affirmation CD.  Maybe you help him find some adult mentors (preferably male) who can give him more positive direction.

I'm sure you're doing the best you can with what you have.  Its all you can do.  I'm pulling for you and your children.

Brigid

[bludie]

Mum,
Just had to chime in. I thought Ts comment was profound:

So long as you're forced to deal with him, it will probably help if you can remember that narcissists are deeply terrified and fragile people, and aren't truly in love with themselves so much as they are in constant need of validation and recognition. So give it where you can, for the sake of yourself and your kids. It may pay off in the long haul, especially if he can be led to think it's mostly his idea and is getting enough credit for what he does right and the insights he does have.

Now, having said that I would also agonize about being able to sustain this outlook. I have experienced the Mother Lion syndrome (going overboard with protecting my daughter because I was left so unprotected as a child) but realize that this approach isn't always appropriate and has more to do with me than her welfare.

So when I take a step back and reframe things, I usually get perspective. In your case, mum, I would find it exceedingly difficult to maintain perspective when the ex-N is always in the picture and dishing out all sorts of behavior.

Asserting your parental rights in court to protect your children sounds right to me. Not only for your children but for you. Worrying about them when they're with him and dealing with him when they're not would wear me out completely. Whatever measures, boundaries, lines in the sand that can be drawn with this man -- legal or otherwise -- seems wise and will protect you and your children. I can totally relate to legal costs having just paid some legal bills myself lately due to my headache of an ex-N. But it may come to this if the strategies and posturing don't achieve a lasting effect.

Just my two cents, mum. I sincerely applaud your efforts for being the great mum that you are.

Best,

bludie

[mum]

Thanks, Brigid.  My son has a wonderful mentor in my fiance (also a musician....which obviously burns up my ex as well....another reason he stopped us from moving).  My son is a junior in HS.  He knows exactly where he wants to go for school, Berklee in Boston (best jazz place in the world).  He has been there for programs in the summer before.  It will cost a fortune (much of which was spent fighting for my right to move) so scholarship is what he needs (because although his father makes gobs of money, he will most likely refuse to pay).  My son absolutely does not want to go to a university with a good jazz program (he is being courted) and with grades recently, he probably won't even get accepted....AHA.  Just realized something, this may be part of a well designed plan for him.  Berklee only gives scholarships for musical merit (not financial need) and accepts a pretty low academic GPA.
This kid may be smarter than all of us.
I really think everything will work out fine for him.  I think the saving grace for my kids is that I left their dad.  Honestly.
Thanks for the input.