Divorce suggestions?

[longtire]

I have made the difficult decision to divorce my wife.  You can find my story (in gory detail) on another thread if you're interested.  I am concerned about, but no longer afraid of her reaction.  We are getting divorced because we have not been able to work out our issues in the marriage, so I don't expect the divorce to be any smoother.  I would really like to hear do's, don'ts and any other comments from those of you who have divorced an emotionally unpredictable spouse.

I'm not going to be a legal sitckler on things, except to make sure that I get to see my daughter on a regular basis.  I'm not out to get my spouse or make her life miserable.  I want to separate to the greatest extent possible and get on with my life.  I will not bad mouth my spouse and will do everything I can to support my daughter and help her heal during and after this process.  Some of the details:

Our daughter is 16, and has her own car, so she can pretty much come and go as she pleases.  The norm in our state is to have joint custody with one parent as the primary, unless presented evidence of danger or neglect to the child.  I'm prepared to let my wife be "primary," since I don't think it will really make any practical difference anyway.  She will get child support from me this way, but I'd spend that on my daughter one way or another.  I think this might appease my spouse in many areas, since I believe it is very important to her to be seen as a "good mother."

I make about 5 times what my wife does, but she makes enough that I probably will not be required to pay alimony.  She may be close to the line here, but she is not going to go on public assistance anytime soon.

One area of contention is going to be the house.  My priority is to keep my daughter in the same high school until she graduates, basically 2 more years.  There may be a way of doing that without having to maintain a residence in that school's region, I'll be checking.  My wife has done a lot of yardwork and feels connected to that.  I'm sort of ambivalent about keeping the house with all of the mixed feelings, however I doubt my spouse can afford it on her own.  I would not like to pay for her to live there and then try to sell the house.  If that's going to be the case, I would rather giver her the house and take more of the stocks, etc., but I doubt she would be happy with that either.  My goal is to separate from my wife to the greatest extent possible now, recognizing that we will be co-parenting for quite some time.

We have a fair amount of cash, stocks, etc.  Nobody is going to starve or be homeless here.  Hopefully that will keep it from being a literal economic fight to the death.  I realize that still doesn't keep it from feeling that way for her.

I am not particularly attached to many household items.  The ones I am most likely to want, she will most likely not want, unless it comes down to a power struggle.

I'm in new territory here and not sure where to go.  I'd love to hear your experiences.

[miaxo]

Well, it sounds like you are more than reasonable with your approach.  That's great.  However, I have found that I have always been more than reasonable but when dealing with an emoitonal unstable person that doesn't always mean there will be smooth sailing.

Double check that alimony thing.  Get a good attorney.  It's worth paying more from the beginning.

Best of luck to you.

[mum]

Longtire. First and foremost. Get a good attorney.  
Even if you have no intention on 'being nasty", it can happen.  A good attorney can keep you from making emotional decisions.

Above all else, try to keep your daughter's life as stable as possible right now.  Alimony is hard to get in most states, but if your wife was dependent upon you for income (as in no job) then her chances will be better.

Seriously consider letting her keep the house, for your daughter's sake.  Your daughter will be most likely out of there in a couple of years anyway.  Maybe you can work something out when she goes to college.  Rough enough to have dad move out, rougher still for her to have to move as well right now.  
  Think about your daughter (seems you do) when you pay child support each month.  It is not for your wife, it is for your daughter... sorry to harp on that but my ex still complains about "my" getting child support!  My kids have even heard his attitude on that.  It hurts them to hear.

You already know not to speak to your daughter like she is your therapist, or to badmouth you ex, however tempting.  

     If you and your wife both have a respectful, loving relationship with your daughter, then she may feel ok about speaking up to you about what her desires are on that end.  At her age, most states will allow her to make up her own mind.  You might even look into a custody evaluation if need be, but if she refuses to speak to anyone (like my kids) because she is too afraid, or doesn't want to be in the middle of it all, maybe let her behavoir and choices in the seperation period be your guide.  Just please don't forget she is a person who loves you both, and not another possession to be assessed and then split up 50/50. Consider being flexible with her needs at the heart of everything.
     
      My fiance has a wonderful, flexible understanding with his ex wife, and their daughter is so fortunate. She loves spending time with either parent, but my fiance accepts that the onus is on him, for leaving the marriage so long ago (for whatever justifiable reason), to forever be the one to adjust, allow and be flexible when it comes to seeing his daughter.  He knows that children are not "splitable" and she does spend the majority of time with her mother, in the home she was born in.  She does however, even at age 8, suggest that one day, she might like to live with her dad.  Neither parent is freaking out over any of it.  She comes first, not their fight, not the breakup, nothing but their child.  My own daughter has said, "I want what they have".....and then acknowledged that her own dad would never go for it.  But they are two pretty healthy people, probably not like your ex or my ex.  
But you can be the healthy one here.  
Keep on feeling inside the way you want to feel and it will unfold.  Walk right throught the mess and keep love for your daughter at the heart of it all.  You will be fine.

[longtire]

Hi mum,
I love my daughter very much and am very proud of the person she is.  I hope that I can handle my breakup with as much insight, honesty and maturity as she handles hers.  As far as child support, I will be supporting my daughter wherever she is anyway.  The only difference I see is that I will be writing a single check for half of her support, instead of having it be distributed over the mortgage, phone bill, electric bill, etc.

I will never put my daughter in the middle by blaming or badmouthing my wife, discussing our adult problems directly, etc.  I will help my daughter deal with the issues that come up for her during and after the divorce.  When I say deal, I mean for her to be aware of her feelings and for me to validate her feelings.  We have already had the talk that you get your issues from your parents and that I will alwys be available now and in the future for her to talk with about these issues.  Can you imagine how helpful it would be to have your parents talk with you today and openly and honestly discuss how their "stuff" caused your issues?!?  It boggles my mind.  I think a lot of those discussions will be far in the future, but its never too early to give her that expectation and foundation.

I will not be petty and try to control my daughter as to how much time she spends with her mom versus me.  Ideally, a girl would want to spend time with her mother talking about womanly things as she grows up.  If that's what she needs, that's what I want her to have.  It is not a competition.  I win if my dughter gets what she needs to grow up happy and healthy.

[Brigid]

Longtire,
I would say the same thing Mum did regarding a good lawyer.  I pay mine a fortune, but everyone says it is my insurance policy for the future.  My husband tried to hire my attorney the day after I hired him.  It was my proudest moment for many months.

I live in a marital property state--everything is 50-50.  I will get paid family maintenance, based on a formula of 50% of his income, plus child support for our 16-year-old daughter who lives with me 99% of the time (her choice).  Our son is 20, so no support for him.  Nothing is finalized yet so I don't have all the details, but I will get half of all stocks, savings, etc.  

I would disagree with Mum on the house issue.  I sold our family home back in July and bought a new home for the kids and I (in the same school district).  I involved them in the process to be sure they were happy with the choice.  We found a great house for half the value of the one I sold.  It was much healthier for me to not have to stay in the house we had shared as a family and the kids are just fine with it.  In fact, they are happier here because they are closer to their friends and we have a pool in the backyard.

I have not worked outside the home for 20 years except for a couple of part-time jobs here and there.  I have refused to consider working until all of this is settled and I know what my maintenance will be.  He is self-employed so there is a great deal of financial data to work through and my attorney has had to hire a forensic accountant to analyze that.  

You must consider college expenses for your daughter and how those will be paid.  Perhaps you have that covered with a special savings account, but we did not and are now hashing that out.  He promised his children that they would never have to worry about their educations.  I never made such a promise, but he is now asking that I pay for half of all college expenses.  I have friends who have done it both ways--he pays it all, or they share, but it comes down to how much he pays me per month as to whether I will help or not.  I have discussed this with the kids and they know and understand my position.  Neither of us would be required to pay a dime if we didn't want to.

If you can have a decent co-parenting situation, good for you.  My H will not talk to me and has very little contact with his children, so co-parenting is not possible.  My daughter is a varsity gymnast who competes all events.  He has not attended one single meet this year.  I do not talk badly about him to his children.  I really don't talk about him at all.  They are old enough to make their own plans with him and determine how much they want to see him.  I do not interfere with any of that.  My goal has been to maintain a stable environment for them where they can feel safe and loved.  So far, they are doing great and I have not seen any negative effects of the separation.  I find that as long as I am doing well, they also do well.  I have worked hard to keep my sadness, anger, etc., away from them as much as possible and just try to be the same mom I have always been.

When he originally left, it was up to me to deal with all the loose ends.  I immediately contacted all my daughter's teachers, coaches, friends' parents and anyone else who had regular contact with her so that if they saw any changes in behavior that I should be aware of, they could contact me.  I also spoke to her guidance counselor and the social worker at her high school.  They have a group that meets with the social worker that is made up of kids whose parents are separated or divorced.  They made this option available to her if she was interested.  I certainly offered both kids the option of therapy when or if they felt they needed it.  So far, neither has shown an interest or need.

I wish you good luck working through the process.  It is painful to split up all the stuff and thinking of the memories as you do.  There is bound to be a lasting impact on your daughter and some kind of damage, no matter what you do, but you can only do what you can do.   I had no control and no say in how this all turned out.  I would have done anything to have it be different, but he held all the cards.  Now I can only control my life.

Brigid

[mum]

Longtire.  You sound like you have your priorities straight.  Your daughter is indeed fortunate to have you as her father.

Brigid: I agree, a good attorney is important.  I was on the other end of that "who gets the attorney first" thing, and I can guarantee, my ex getting that attorney first helped inspire his win in the courts (and his gloating certainly could be felt).  I was in such a panic, I didn't investigate very well and hired a rather inexperienced team.  Oh well.  Regret does nothing.  I have a new attorney now, who is not the least bit afraid of his, but there is currently no case...yet.  When I bring up the case again, I will be armed.

Again, Longtire, you sound grounded. Bless you.

[Screamer]

I will never put my daughter in the middle by blaming or badmouthing my wife, discussing our adult problems directly, etc.  I will help my daughter deal with the issues that come up for her during and after the divorce.  I will alwys be available now and in the future for her to talk with about these issues.  

I will not be petty and try to control my daughter as to how much time she spends with her mom versus me.  Ideally, a girl would want to spend time with her mother talking about womanly things as she grows up.  If that's what she needs, that's what I want her to have.  It is not a competition.  I win if my dughter gets what she needs to grow up happy and healthy.

Your daughter is blessed to have such a father.  BLESSED!!!  It is uplifting to hear a parent talk about protecting and respecting their child this way.  You and your daughter will be in my prayers tonight!

[Anonymous]

Longtire, no advice from me but I just want to congratulate you on your decision to live your life! And good luck too. Portia

[bludie]

Longtire,
I echo with the comments on this thread about hiring a good lawyer. I didn't during the divorce from my husband. I got nothing. I did hire an attorney during parting of the ways with my ex-N-fiance. I am glad I did. As you have emphasized, money is not the issue. That is usually the case IN THE BEGINNING. My experience has shown that money becomes an issue after the first motion or pleading is filed. Money can often become the smoke screen or mantle for feelings of hurt, anger or rejection.

From your accounts of S, I'd predict she'll go for the jugular and use money as the smoke screen for her hurt feelings. You are initiating the divorce. If there is anything in her makeup or demeanor that would turn this into a power struggle, then try to remember this in the coming months.

Your consideration of your daughter's needs during this process is exemplary. If you keep that as the primary focus, you'll do fine. Keep us posted. I truly feel you've made the right decision. You've spent so much time pouring over your side of the street, so to speak, and are now ready to take action without rancor or animosity. I am wishing you the best and hope you'll keep us current on how this unfolds.

Best,

bludie

[Anonymous]

There are some joint therapists who specialize/have experience in "exit" therapy, useful in reducing fireworks and hardship BEFORE you get to court/spend a lot on attorneys fees. You may consider this in addition to a good attorney. You can probably expect to pay about two years of some amount of alimony, to give her a chance to adjust and attempt to bring her income up to more profitable levels, especially considering you make so much more than she does. However, most judges no longer award lifetime alimony unless a woman has never worked outside the home/has no viable workplace skills and is over 50 or so.

It would be a good thing for her/your child if you could find the cash reserves to paydown/refinance the house so that she is more likely to be able to maintain it as a permanent residence, in exchange for other assets. Being able to stay connected to her landscaping and home comfort zone may make the transition easier for her (and therefore you and your daughter).

Best of luck.

T

[Brigid]

I would agree with T that if you can work with a therapist to help you with the co-parenting and exit issues, things can go much smoother.  My therapist offered this to my husband and I, but he would not participate.  We did have a couple of appointments with a child therapist to work on co-parenting, but he wouldn't follow through on any of the suggestions.  My point being, both members have to be motivated and willing to do what is asked and actually put the interests of the child first.  It is clear you are, but can the same be said for your wife?

I had a 1 1/2 hour meeting with my attorney this morning so am fresh from the negotiating table.  I see from reading the different posts, that people give information based on what their state laws are and what kind of legal advice they are receiving.  My information regarding the whole alimony/family maintanance issue is somewhat different.  Here, alimony is usually awarded for about half the length of time of the marriage, but could be lifetime if the woman is older.  Of course, much is dependant on the financial situations of the parties involved.

Another thing to consider is collaborative divorce if it is available in your state.  This can be an effective, less expensive means to the end if both parties are willing to be cooperative.  You both have legal representation, but with less involvement by the attorneys and more involvement by you and your spouse.  Because of my husband's penchant for lying and hiding things and being self-employed, this was not a good option for me, but I have heard that it works very well for other people and ultimately saves thousands of dollars.  If it is available in your state, you need to find an attorney who offers this option (not all of them do) and after reviewing your case, feels you are a good candidate.

I hope this has offered a couple of options to consider.  Good luck.

Brigid

[longtire]

Wow, a lot of replies and good advice!  I talked with a friend who got divorced in this state a few years ago.  He was able to answer a lot of my questions and give me some good advice on the do's and don'ts.

I have a lawyer who I get a really good vibe from.  When I consulted with him last year, one of the first things he said is that he won't take any actions which are punitive or intended to cause harm to anyone in the family.  That's my kind of guy!  It's kind of hard to tell so far, but he seems competent enough and is certainly busy, though he called back in less than a day.

He advised trying to work everything out ourselves to save money.  That includes an informal separation as well as the final agreement.  Of course, we would have the lawyers look over everything before going in for the final court date.  He suggested figuring out the separation first, which means figuring out the house.  I have a hard time believeing it will work out with my wife this way, but I'm taking mum's advice and picturing the smiling, cooperative outcome that I want.

As for the house, the more I think about it, I'd rather NOT stay, though I'd be willing for my daughter.  Too many bad memories and pain and anger soaked into the walls.  I'm willing to consider drawing this process out long enough to joint refinance, if my wife can then afford to stay there.  I'll have to check and see if there is a "no divorce for 6 monthes after refi" clause or anything like that.  Thanks, T, for the suggestion.  I do still want to live in a house, though, so I can listen to my music and movies as loud as I want.  

As for my daughter, I have a hard time seeing my wife going to any kind of joint anything with me ever again.  I will suggest it anyway when the time comes.  I'll be looking into and doing the co-parenting things, regardless of my wife's choices.  I have looked into the collaborative divorce before, but am hoping that we can work most of the issues out without things escalating out of control.

I need to get pictures of everything in the house and make copies of the important financial documents to make sure I'm protected.  Hopefully, I'll be ready to talk with my wife about this early next week.

Last but not least, thank you, thank you for your comments about me being a good dad.  When I read that I realized that I NEVER once heard that from my wife.  I do feel that I've done an OK job until recently, but am now really able to do a good or even great job after working out so much of my own crap.  It's so helpful to get consistent feedback from other people that isn't always 180 degrees opposite of my perceptions.

[mum]

Lontire:  Before I divorced the father of my  children (and I was in misery), I said: "I need to stay married for the sake of the kids"....when I finally decided to divorce him, I said:  "I need to get divorced for the sake of the kids".

Our children deserve first and formost in life, a healthy example of love.
I decided if I never had another partner, my kids would see true love from the way I can love myself.

You are doing what is right for you, and this is yet another reason your daughter is lucky.

[Brigid]

Well said Mum.  My therapist has had to pound this into my head, but I am starting to get it.  My children will be better off in the future if they see their mother in a happy, loving relationship with a healthy, mature man.

Longtire, you are ultimately doing the best thing for you and your daughter.  It just hurts a lot while you do.

Brigid

[mum]

Lontire:  My second divorce was done "collaboratively" at a document service.  It was cheap and easy, but I had no children with that husband, and he was, despite his facade, living off of me financially. He did not own a home, was not a father, and didn't want to give anything to a lawyer.  All in all, we didn't and don't hate each other, we were both glad it was over and it was not that bad.

HOWEVER:  my first husband, the father of my children, is a real jerk, with huge emotional issues.  He still sees the children as his possessions and in true N form, views my "leaving" him (even though he left to sleep around) as something to "get back at me for" forever.   I would say, considering your posts, and the fact that you have a child and home together, your best bet is to have a good attorney's advice at every turn.  

I hesitate to suggest mediation because although that worked well for my fiance and his ex ( neither is emotionally unhealty)  it was a disastrous waste of energy for my children's father and I.  They should put a disclaimer on all mediation proceedings: "this will only work if both parties are reasonable and don't have any animosity toward one another".