obsession with the truth-- anyone else have this?

[vunil]

Hi, alll--

I have been realizing something about myself that I haven't see mentioned in  books or readings-- I wondered if anyone else has my same experience.

Throughout childhood, my narcissistic family was fully supportive of my parents not being truthful with me.  Sometimes it was out and out lying and sometimes it was more subtle-- "correcting" me all the time when the motive was to be superior, for instance, and not to help me or provide information. A couple of times when I was an adult, to keep myself sane when I was with them, I played a game where I would say something ("this car is big!") and wait for their response ("well, it's the smallest car in its class.  It has been known by the whole world to be extremely small.  Big is wrong.   SMALL!").  Then a few minutes later I'd say the opposite thing ("this car is cozy and small") and wait for their response, which of course would be correcting me and the opposite of what they said before ("no one thinks this is a small car. It is the biggest car in the world.")  They never seemed to notice this game, including that I said opposite things.  I finally stopped because it was freaking me out.

For a narcissist, the truth doesn't exist-- it's all about two things (1) getting something they want right then, and/or (2) exerting superiority.  And they don't even seem to form memories like the rest of us do-- my parents remember almost nothing of the past when it comes to me, even the recent past.

This makes a child nuts.  My reaction was to become obsessed with the truth.  It isn't that I don't get that there are multiple perspectives and perceptions-- I want to know all of those, too.  I want to measure the car, then read on-line about what different people think about the size of the car, and the sit in a lot of cars to draw my own conclusions (to continue the metaphor).

Anyone else have this reaction to their upbringing?  It has its benefits-- I'm pretty very well-informed (I think I vote for the right person -- at least for me , and I'm a great scientist-- but underneath the benefit is some dark  stuff, because for many years most of what was said to me at home just wasn't real.  That has to leave scars (and lack of trust).  I'll never join a crazy cult but on the other hand I'll never have the pleasure of just surrendering to the wisdom of someone's words (without this little voice inside telling me to find out if what they are saying can be trusted, and if they can).  When I meet religious people who have fundametalist views, it's like meeting space aliens to me.  But part of me envies them their ability to give in to something like that.

Thanks for reading!  I would love to hear others' views.

[bludie]

Vunil,
Good question. I have often pondered the same and have noticed instances in my life where analysis led to paralysis. Having an N-Dad, I think this hyper-examination emanates from intuitively knowing things were wrong while growing up but being told that my perceptions weren't accurate. This has spawned lots of mistrust and self doubt. We can get hardwired or programmed to view life and others this way. It can be quite a task to unlearn these reflexive perceptions and deactivate subsequent behaviors. Good inquiry. Thanks for the post.

Best,

bludie

[Anonymous]

vunil:

If you have read my posts on other topics you know that I have a disabled son who is autistic.  Autistic individuals do not process or receive information in their brains and interpret as we do.  For example their balance can be off as they walk down the sidewalk because they interpret the edges of the sidewalk differently than we do. So they are not quite sure as to where they are in reference to space and time.  Why do I tell  you this:

I remember  my son when he was learning to use the swing on the swing set, he would always drag his feet on the ground while swinging, never losing touch with the ground.  I would always be in back of him.  He was not a small child, he was around 8 I think.  Well at any rate I could not figure why he did this.  It finally dawned on me it was because he was so insecure as to how his body moved in realtion to the swing.  He had to keep  his feet on the ground because that was the only secure reference point he had.

Such is the case with your with "obessession" with truth.  It is the only true reference point you have had living in a distorted reality with narcs.  Truth was the only "ground" you had to place your reality, your feelings in order to stay sane.  

My father used to play "mind games" with me as well.  It can be a crazy making experience.  If what you see, feel, experience gives your frame of reference meaning then it is true and not false.  A Cadillac Escapade is a large SUV, it is not a VW.  Conversely a VW is a small car and not a SUV.  The space each vehicle occupys determines it truth and not what you want it to be.  To bad for your family that their idea of time and space and experience is so distorted.  Patz

[vunil]

One other thing I notice that may relate to this is that for years I had friends and romantic attachments that would correct me and tell me what to do, a la my parents.  They were always very confident about their opinions.  I would be secretly furious with them.  But I always chose them!  Funny how that works.

I was remembering this morning some of the more egregious lies my parents have told me-- they actually told me when I was 21 that they would wait to have the childhood dog put so sleep (she had cancer) on a monday so that I could come to their place over the weekend and see her for the last time.  Then on that Friday they took her to be put to sleep as they had always planned.  I never got to see her.

Can you frigging believe that? It's enough to make you want to scream.

No wonder it's tough for me to just settle in and believe things on first glance.

Sorry, venting

[bludie]

Wow, Patz. How insightful. The analogy between the truth and your son's need to literally stay grounded is quite powerful. Thanks for that thought this morning.


Best,

bludie

[vunil]

One other thing I notice that may relate to this is that for years I had friends and romantic attachments that would correct me and tell me what to do, a la my parents.  They were always very confident about their opinions.  I would be secretly furious with them.  But I always chose them!  Funny how that works.

I was remembering this morning some of the more egregious lies my parents have told me-- they actually told me when I was 21 that they would wait to have the childhood dog put so sleep (she had cancer) on a monday so that I could come to their place over the weekend and see her for the last time.  Then on that Friday they took her to be put to sleep as they had always planned.  I never got to see her.

Can you frigging believe that? It's enough to make you want to scream.

No wonder it's tough for me to just settle in and believe things on first glance.

Sorry, venting

[vunil]

(sorry about the double post!)

Patz--

That is exactly what my childhood felt like, and how I feel around my family even now (when I am around them, which gets rarer).  I feel like I'm floating in space, no sense of where I am or who I am, and no sense of what's really going on.  What does this conversation mean?  Why am I here?  What is motivating all of these weird interactions?  Why do I feel so incredibly uncomfortable?

When I really made myself read about narcissism instead of just "knowing" that's what it was, I felt a lot more of that grounding because I had labels for what was going on (they were feeding themselves off of everything including me and that's why I didn't feel like I was there-- to them I wasn't!  Not in a way apart from them.  I was just food.)

But your metaphor was so beautiful to me because it really made clear that if you don't have that grounding really deep in your soul, you'll never truly have it.  You have to just do the best you can and keep dragging your feet along the ground...

thanks

[mum]

Vunil:  Your post made me think of my good friend, who I think has major N tendencies (ok, maybe full blown NPD).  I have to keep my boundaries with her, but I think we are friends because I do, and she needs that, perhaps.
Anyway, she is one of the smartest people I know....ivy league grade, engineer, now an MD.  But her childhood was marked with the same kind of crap you describe.  She finds a way to find out the "truth" about the world as a way to use her incredible brain, and after reading your post, probably as a result of being told otherwise growing up (and because she is way smarter than her N mom).  Her personal relationships are unfortunately marked with this same kind of analysis and desperate need to be "right", so she does struggle with those.
Thanks for giving me some insight today.

[Anonymous]

bludie and vunil:

My autistic child has taught me much about nature and people.  I had to separate how he viewed in his distorted way with the real truth of  his experience.  I had to do this in order that the information he was seeing and experiencing was interpreted in a fashion that he would respond appropriately to it.  For example he had to learn that a stove was for cooking and if he touched it he would harm himself.  Rather than seeing a stove as a car and was for transportation.  

Such as it is with life.  If what you are seeing, feeling, and experiencing is telling  your brain information...........no matter what a narc is telling you.....then it is the truth.  If  you are feeling uncomfortable, if you have a feeling of unreality in what they are saying, chances are it is a distorted version of what is actual.

Another example:

I worked very hard to get myself through college.  My parents were to come to my graduation.  I waited, and I waited.  I was due at the ceremonies within 30 min.  still no parents.   ( It was about a 1 hr drive from my home town).  My father calls the actual 11th hour to tell me they were not coming because my mother had the flu.  I was sitting waiting and waiting.  Just how hard to do you think it was for them to maybe have called 2 days before to let me know that they were not coming?  How hard do you think it was for me to know that as hard as I worked, has hard as I tried to make them proud of me, it was only at the 11th hour they THOUGHT I might need to know not to wait.  Yet, when my younger brother graduated from high school, the carpet was really rolled out.  What am I to gather from this difference?

No matter what you do.......you are less than.  At some point you stop trying to have a realtionship because the messages you are given are so indifferent.  I would rather have someone verbalize they don't like me any day than cope with indiffence.  In other words, I don't care if you come or if you go.  Invisible even to this day.  

So what you see, what you feel in reference to what you are experiencing.........it is true.  It was true my parents did not think enough of me to even congratulate me on a job well done, it was true my parents did not think enough of me to call in advance they were not coming, it is true my father did not come regardless if my mother had the "flu", it was true none of my other extended family acknowledged my graduation.....you begin to see the picture.  It would be different if they had not seen the difficulty in which this was achieved. It would be different if we were from a wealthy family and it was de facto that my college expense would be taken care of.  It would have been different if my family had been educated as well.  Maybe they did all of this out of ignorance.  However having said this.  Just how difficult is it to be thoughtful  and kind.  Not difficult at all.  All of this is factual, it is grounded information.  

If any of this helps, just remember to go over what is the "facts" and you will see narcs are truly mirage type people.  The image of what they see is just shimmering on the horizon and they want you to see that to.  Only when you arrive it is discovered nothing is there.  Then the narc will say, oh, there it is just over the "next" horizion.........you just keep travelling with them horizon to horizon only to discover none of it is real and grounded.  Patz

[mum]

Patz: your writings are thought provoking and beautiful.  Thank you.
Your image of the "next horizon" thing makes sense to me.  I found that experience with my ex N as well.  I also realized much later, that I had that same habit....it will be better when (XYZ) happens...  That kind of thinking was different than HOPE for me.  Instead, it kept me miserable in the present time, until I realized there is nothing BUT the present time.  If I didn't learn how to be happy right now, in whatever circumstance, how would I know how to be happy EVER?  When the future comes, it will be the present again.  Will I ever be able to appreciate it?

Happiness is a habit....and unhappiness is to.  So I set to work on becoming happy, regardless.  I still INTEND to get out of my uncomfortable circumstance, I still work towards that, it's not like I do nothing to improve my or my kids' lives, I just am HAPPY on this road.

Pema Chodron has an interesting idea: "Give up Hope".  It's a tough one to wrap my brain around, and my fiance and I have had heated discussions over the concept of it....but it makes sense in a non-depressing way, if you see where hoping for the next better thing to come along to "save us", really keeps us so unhappy in the present moment (all we really have).

Patz and Vunil:  your stories of the graduation and the dog are so sad.  I am sorry these people were so mean.  You've done a good job recovering.

[vunil]

Pema Chodron has an interesting idea: "Give up Hope".

The reminds me of something a friend told me.  She has a very narcissistic husband and when she was starting to really see what was going on she started telling herself "no expectations" when she was around him.  That helped a lot.  And he's gone enough that she can keep this mantra.

It works for me too as long as I have some distance from my family.  It's too difficult if I'm around them all the time-- I mean it's just human to expect something that looks kind of like normal interaction!

[vunil]

desperate need to be "right",

And the sad thing is she probably doesn't see it that way- she's just trying to make sure she isn't fooled or doesn't get her hopes up about something that might turn out to be false, or she's just trying to find her grounding when it's so tough to believe anything.

My sister does this a lot (I think more than I do, but it's tough to see oneself!)-- and it makes conversations strange sometimes.  She keeps coming back to the thing she wants to be 'right' about, when I either don't care or don't agree.  I sometimes have to leave her alone for a while until she forgets her "mission" to make me "see" the truth about whatever she's stuck on.

We have talked about it and we both know we became scientists in part because of our N parents lying to us all the time.  

I am hoping knowing about this, both sides of it, will help me avoid its pitfalls.  It's so tough...

[bunny]

Hi vunil,

Thanks for posting your experience so we could see where you're coming from. And it's quite fascinating.

I played a game where I would say something ("this car is big!") and wait for their response ("well, it's the smallest car in its class.  It has been known by the whole world to be extremely small.  Big is wrong.   SMALL!").

LOL!

They never seemed to notice this game, including that I said opposite things.  I finally stopped because it was freaking me out.

And the experiment was successful and you got some results. You were already a scientist...

This makes a child nuts.  My reaction was to become obsessed with the truth.  It isn't that I don't get that there are multiple perspectives and perceptions-- I want to know all of those, too.  I want to measure the car, then read on-line about what different people think about the size of the car, and the sit in a lot of cars to draw my own conclusions (to continue the metaphor).

I don't blame you. But it's kind of a high price to pay. It takes a lot of time, not everyone is going to go along with it, many will lose interest in all this empirical testing, and especially a romantic partner will feel 'tested' all the time. (If you make others prove what they're saying, or if you correct them a lot because they're slightly inaccurate or something.)

I wouldn't surrender to the wisdom of anyone's words unless I happen to agree with them anyway. I used to go to a throw-down church every Sunday (I'm jewish), and I envied the congregants who had total blind faith. I couldn't feel that no matter what. I'm way too skeptical and a questioner.

Another thing, there is the "truth" and there is "honesty." IMO truth is more of a shared agreement about reality. And honesty is being open with one's knowledge or information. However, honesty can be used abusively and so can the truth if a child is influenced to accept a bunch of distortions called the truth by messed up adults.

hope that wasn't too confusing.

bunny

[shixie]

One reason why I love the internet so much is because whenever I want an answer, which is quite often, I just google it.  Finding the "truth" as you so well put, is so much of who I am.  I never really put it together as stemming from the N's in my life, but I guess you are right.  Friends and co-workers think I am this incredibly smart person and always come to me with questions.  I just call it a head full of useless information which makes me feel more like Cliff Claven than an intelligent person.  You know that annoying mailman who hung out at Cheers.  It is true though, nothing annoys me more than someone spouting off as an expert know it all with incorrect information.

It reminds me of something that happened with my exN.  We were having a discussion one day and it included the Mason-Dixon line.  We live in PA and he siad that it was down south.  I told him no it was not, its the border between PA and MD.  Well you would have thought that I commited some mortal sin the way he chastised me, calling me a stupid bimbo, and he went on and on.  He carried on so much that I gave in and believed him.  It continued to bother me for days and weeks.  He even told his friends what a stupid bimbo I was for thinking the PA-MD borderwas the Mason-Dixon line.  This happened prior to having internet at home.  Eventually, I decided to look it up.  We had a really old set of encyclopedia's from the 60's.  When I looked it up and found that I was right, I was really mad at how he belittled me over it and decided to give it back.  For several weeks I would bring it up in front of many friends.  He would do his normal routine of how smart he was and what a stupid bimbo I was etc.  Whe I felt that enough people had heard it.  I got the encyclopedia out and showed it to him.  The first thing he said was "thats wrong".  I couldn't believe my ears.  I looked at himand said "you are so obsessed with being right that your saying an encyclopedia is wrong."  Then he said  "then there is 2 Mason-Dixon lines."  I laughed in his face and said "do you realize how ridiculous you sound?"  He continued to insist he was right.  Then for weeks afterward I made sure everyone heard about his Mason-Dixon line knowledge as well as the incorrect encyclopedia.  I set him up good, he deserved it.

[Anonymous]

Narcs are totally obessessed with being right.  Even given empirical information ......it is just like them to say the encyclopedia is wrong! What a hoot.  Patz