New Age Spirituality and Narcissism???

[Chandra]

I started laughing. Oh boy! What rot, what patronising, intelligence-insulting, assumptive, presumptive claptrap. That’s my opinion.

Right on Portia! Thanks for validating why I couldn't stand reading the first book, even though I was in the throes of romantic love at the time and this was my fiancé's all time FAVORITE series of books. (He probably couldn't stand that I didn't especially embrace it, even though I didn't openly criticize it either). Condescending, preachy, and patronising is right!

I am still really open to hearing someone else's more positive take on it. I can't imagine something would become a best seller if it was completely without merit. I did find one thing of potential value in the book, though not for me. The book spent a lot of time negating the image of God as vengeful, wrathful, and punishing. I think some fundamentalist religions view God that way and it would be beneficial for some to undo that kind of programming.

Chandra

[Chandra]

Oh, we must all be on at once. After posting a reply, I see so many others.

Here's what weird: My N recently read Road Less Traveled and absolutely loved that too. He also read Peck's People of the Lie, which, I think, is partly about Narcissism. And he raved about it. Didn't see himself in it at all. And started calling other people Narcissists.

Chandra

[vunil]

He also read Peck's People of the Lie, which, I think, is partly about Narcissism. And he raved about it. Didn't see himself in it at all. And started calling other people Narcissists.

I think that book has some excellent descriptions of what it feels like to be in the presence of narcissists. It gets a little freaky (imo) when he starts recommending exorcism for these patients, but what the heck-- regular therapy doesn't seem to help them!


That last part cracked me up-- so many of the narcissists in my life are obsessed with how selfish other people are.  When you ask for examples, it's clear that anything other than bending over backwards to the N's wishes is "selfish."  One of my exes used to call me selfish whenever I wanted somethng different from what he wanted, especially (for some reason) when we were on vacation.  He would say "but it's my vacation! How can you be so selfish?" Telling him it was my vacation, too, led to an empty stare.

[vunil]

Yeah, getting prayed for: it smacks of "there is something wrong with you" when it comes from certain sources, huh?

Definitely.  It's very "we have a special relationship with the almighty because we are so holy, so we can get you fixed right up.  Also, your flaws are so deep that it takes divine intervention to correct them.  Luckily, and not surprisingly, god agrees with our judgment of you."

I guess it would be different if there were something physically wrong with me.  On the contrary, there is something physically great with me!


I wish I had the nerve to write back "oh, thanks, but I already do that for myself."  Or how about "oh, great, but I asked god and s/he said that I'm doing really well."

[bunny]

I don't think my ex N was using this just to impress me. He seems to sincerely buy into it lock, stock, and barrel. I just think that the nature of this specific spiritual teaching is subject to great misuse by someone with N tendencies.

Sorry, I should have said that the N whose persona fits spirituality unconsciously uses it to get supplies. Some of them are doing it as con artists, but many many others truly have a grandiose feeling of superiority and righteousness.

I haven't read Conversations with God and it sounds so god-awful that I don't think I can stomach it. There are plenty of horrific books out there that become wildly popular for some reason. I guess there are a lot of "seekers" who aren't very picky about the reading material.

bunny

[bunny]

All of this reminds me of an e-mail I got from my dad yesterday.  My parents are furious with me because I wanted to begin talking about my crazy childhood with them and they would rather not (because there is nothing to talk about because of their extreme perfection in all ways).  They asked what I wanted from them and I said please go get some therapy.  That made them super-furious (perfect people do not get therapy).

pragmatic suggestion ahead - take what you need and leave the rest -

2x I tried to talk to my mother about my current emotional problems with regard to her child-rearing practices and it went over like a lead balloon. Parents (especially fragile Ns) are seriously defensive about this stuff. And since they can't turn back the clock, they have some vague guilt if you bring it up. And that will make them extremely defensive, angry, martyred, etc. I don't think it's a great idea to tell someone else to get therapy (unless you plan to attend along with them) because they have no inner motivation and will take it as a personal insult. I have suggested to my N-sister to seek therapy only when she complained about a lot of anxiety, stress, and seemed to be asking for this suggestion. Of course when I gave it, she turned on me like a viper and became enraged. And she hasn't seen a therapist. You could make it a condition for any further interaction but just asking them to do it while still interacting with them won't work. You have no leverage.

bunny

[Chandra]

so many of the narcissists in my life are obsessed with how selfish other people are.

That's so interesting Vunil! My experience with my exN and all the reading I'm doing has made me realize that my mother has some strong N tendencies. All my life and to this day, my mother has told me over and over how selfish I am. She used to say how selfish my dad was (I don't remember him being that way at all---in fact, we both walked on eggshells so as to avoid upsetting my mother). And while my exN didn't use the word "selfish," he said things like "you expect me to decrease my joy in order for you to increase yours." Or some new agey crap like that. The concept of putting needs and wants on the table and negotiating and compromising was foreign to him.

What an education this has been for me! Maybe that is why this N came into my life: to lead me to this body of knowledge about NPD thereby shedding light on my childhood and relationship with my mother.

Chandra

[Anonymous]

You could make it a condition for any further interaction but just asking them to do it while still interacting with them won't work. You have no leverage.

You know, this is what I initially said to them.  But it became clear they would pick never speaking to me over therapy.  And also in the process of "communicating" I realized they were nuttier than I had thought and I realized they might not even benefit from therapy (unless they chose it).  I also received the viper treatment and didn't like it.

Was I wrong to back down?  I would love your opinion.  

BTW they are happy to go to therapy with me, because (it is clear from our interactions) they believe this means "explain to the therapist that their daughter is crazy and that they were wonderful parents."  I know that therapy would never take that tone, but the minute they realized they were not going to recruit a judge to condemn me they would be out of there in a heartbeat.  I can't imagine it working out very well, which is why I haven't taken them up on the offer. It just seems they need to do some work on their own, first.

[bunny]

...it became clear they would pick never speaking to me over therapy.

This tells you that they are terrified. They would rather lose you than go to a therapist. This means it's life or death to them. It's you or them. And their survival instinct says "Attack!"

And also in the process of "communicating" I realized they were nuttier than I had thought and I realized they might not even benefit from therapy (unless they chose it).  I also received the viper treatment and didn't like it.

Right. They won't benefit from therapy. You can lead a horse to water, etc.

Was I wrong to back down?  I would love your opinion.

I don't think you have backed down.
 

the minute they realized they were not going to recruit a judge to condemn me they would be out of there in a heartbeat.

I agree.

It just seems they need to do some work on their own, first.

Unfortunately they aren't going to work on anything. They don't want to. I'd go to plan B (I already have, with my family).

bunny

[vunil]

I'd go to plan B

Thanks for the affirmations! I can't tell you how much I appreciate it.  All of this feels a little outer-space-land to me sometimes, so new.

Plan B it is.

I don't regret pushing them because the process showed me what's really brewing and made me really take it deadly-serious. It led me to learning.  I think I secretly believed the barrier to our addressing things was that I never brought them up!  Now I realize there are super-serious problems there.

And anyway I know I'll be ok because, you know,  they are praying for me... (to bring it back to this thread).

[vunil]

We got a bit off the new age thread, but I would still like to chat about it if anyone else is up for it.  


What about this idea of being able to 'heal yourself' with the right mindset?  A friend today recommended a book called something like "you can heal yourself" which basically says you can get rid of any disease with the right way of thinking, and you give yourself diseases if you think the wrong way.

Does this make anyone else crazy-mad?  It is narcissism run rampant, and then made into a religion.  And the worst part is, I don't feel as if I'm allowed to disagree with it.  It just sounds so optimistic and empowering.  To not believe in it is to be a cynic.

(but, um,  I don't believe it)

I just expect that everyone enjoying excellent health believes it just fine (see, I have the right thoughts!) and those who succumb to illness are less thrilled.

Growing up in a narcissitic household means I'll always want to speak up for the downtrodden, the ones who really are suffering, and I sure don't want to blame them for giving themselves diseases.

anyway.  maybe I'm just looking at it the wrong way?

[mum]

Vunil: Belief systems are so very personal, intrinsically neither right nor wrong, so it would be ridiculous to tell anyone they "see something the wrong way", but if you are instead asking for another perspective, I'll offer mine.

I believe we have a great part, if not the most part in creating our lives. I think its' true, but I don't quite have the hang on how to do it, however.
 I believe (know) we will die (to this life) as well.  We rarely get to choose how we die (ok, some do,  directly and indirectly).  People who get a disease are not "asking for it" or creating it per se.  Instead, and this may sound a lot like old fashioned "blind faith' (hey , anyone remember that band?..I digress): The world/God/the universe/whatever is the bigger picture.... gives us exactly what we need to learn as a soul.  Now if you are convinced that life here on earth is all there is, then dying is a very horrible thing, to be greatly feared (I will agree to avoid it when I can, however).  We will die.  Plain and simple.  But if you believe this life is a wonderful thing to learn and enjoy on our way (where?) then it becomes easier to accept whatever this life throws us. (for me).  Easy for me to say, I suppose, and I'm sure when some horrible shit comes my way this theory will be tested.
Accepting death however is the ultimate relief!  If we can find a way not to be afraid to die.....just imagine!  Then we can extrapolate that into smaller things (since that one is huge) ....ie: if we are not afraid of those nasty N's in our life, our lives get better (lots of us are seeing that or aiming for that).

What I have seen is that since I have stopped thinking of myself as a victim of life's circumstances (well, I have my days).... I am happier and more in control, peaceful, powerful.  I see how my choices in dealing with how life has handed me things IS up to me...and I think when I feel good inside, life matches that, and hands me more good stuff.  Or, you could say, hey it hands you bad stuff, you're just not seeing it that way!  To which I would say: EXACTLY!

[Anonymous]

Actually I posted the same thing in another thread (whose name escapes me). I.e., people aren't to blame for illnesses or disasters that happen to them.

Here is what I believe in a nutshell: The power of suggestion is very strong. This includes hypnosis and self-hypnosis. With that said, it doesn't prevent or cure diseases, if it did no one would have these problems.

sorry to be so bone-dry about it

bunny

[mum]

or, Bunny, to be devil's advocate: maybe the power of suggestion CAN cure disease, and we just all suck at it.

[Anonymous]

or, Bunny, to be devil's advocate: maybe the power of suggestion CAN cure disease, and we just all suck at it.

Well the power of suggestion (hypnosis) is used for pain control and it seems to work. It cannot, however, eliminate the pain. It just distracts the person from feeling it.

bunny