New Age Spirituality and Narcissism???

[Chandra]

Has anyone's N been a devotee of some New Age teacher or guru? Mine was fixated on Neale Donald Walsch's Conversations with God books. I wonder if anyone on this board has read these books and what you think of them?

Here's a quote from Sandy Hotchkiss' book, Why Is It Always About You? The Seven Deadly Sins of Narcissism: p. 179

".....the dominant spiritual presence of the late 20th century has not been God but some exalted form of Me.  The narcissistic individual's great difficulty bowing to outside authority may explain the popularity of the kind of spiritualism that emphasizes the deity within, one's own internal "higher power." Whether this represents a pinnacle of moral development or an exercise in infantile grandiosity varies, of course, among individuals.
When that higher power is just Me playing God, it is easy to fool oneself and fall into moral laxity....."

A website on NPD has also alluded to this phenomenon:

"It has also been suggested that self-help literature about bolstering self-esteem and getting what you want out of life or that encourages the feeling of victimization, has aggravating effects on NPD thinking and behavior."

http://www.halcyon.com/jmashmun/npd/dsm-iv.html

Chandra

[mum]

Chandra: what an interesting topic.  My ex refused to discuss spirituality with me, except on a very superficial way.  If our discussions got too "real", he would make a huge joke out of it and mock my interest in those matters.  To look cool, however, he read things the life of Mahatma Ghandi and would tell people so.  He was mostly interested in the historical aspects of it, however.  Perhaps it was typical N behavoir to not see how any of that actually could affect his reality...which is typically of his own making, damn the rest of us!  I believe he is truly amoral, so any discussions of spirituality would indeed be used by him to bolster whatever behavoirs he is currently excusing.

My second N husband (ex....yeah, I was a slow learner) would quote anyone and everything to sound smart...unfortunately, his "sound bytes" never changed, and after the umpteenth quoting of Joseph Campbell or some other extremely influential thinker, I began to realize that's all they were: soundbytes to help with the "show" called him.  He also, was most interested in the trival pursuit version of history as well. He had a touch of EST training, back in the day, but as with everything, he uses one tiny memory (he left after an hour, I think) to brag about how hip he was.
He also, did not want to talk about the soul, or spirituality except when it was another cynical sound byte to put down others.  Any closeness to this subject was an excuse for a stiff drink.

I consider myself to be on a spiritual path.  This awareness has saved me. I no longer have a narrow view of the divine as a traditional Man in the Clouds that I got growing up, so I guess in that way people might say I am "new age".  I don't actually call myself anything, other than learning.
I do believe the divine is all of us, at our essence, but it is not so far from what I learned in Sunday school....God is in everyone.  I see this as a way to reclaim my power and responsibility in this life, not to abuse others..but then, I don't have a personality disorder.

I totally see how a narc would use WHATEVER they hear and twist it to their own devices.  But I have seen them do it with EVERYTHING, doesn't only have to do with matters of the spirit....but why not, the world and all its' thoughts belong to them!!!

[vunil]

Great thread.

I had had several people go on and on to me about Deepok Chopra and how he brings total enlightenment.  And then when you ask for details they explain about how if you just eat the right foods and have the right attitude then you will look beautiful and young forever and never die!  

I guess all those people who actually do age are just inferior.

And being pregnant and trying to get there have brought all kinds of new age philosophies my way, and maybe because I am studying narcissism now (to finally fully process my childhood and to be a good parent myself) a lot of it struck me funny and borderline offensive.  For instance, a lot of new age books and CD's espouse the view that if you think negatively that you will "manifest" negative things in your life, including things like cancer and aging.  If you expect the absolute best, then you will get it.  All you have to do is visualize something and it will come true.

This meant that I was wrong to worry about being infertile and possibly not getting pregnant.  (punchline-- everything worked out great for me (so far!), I think in part because I took precautions against what might go wrong instead of ignoring it).

So, the upshot is (1) bad things happen to unenlightened people;  the truly superior people avoid bad stuff by using the right techniques, and (2)  the individual is able to manifest all manner of incredible changes in the physical universe with his or her mind.

I am sure none of this is meant to cross the line into narcissism-- it's just supposed to bring hope and positive energy.  But the flip side of it is arrogant and very blame-the-victim.  And anyway it's all a bunch of hoo-ha.  I know plenty of wonderful, positive people who have had bad fortune and plenty of negative unenlightened jerks who enjoy tons of good fortune.  If the world were so organized that we all got what we wanted by meditating, I think we'd know it by now!

[mum]

Vunil: you are so funny.    My fiance would crack up if he read what you wrote.  He and I go round and round (always with a sense of humor) about this very subject.  He's totally with you on this.
I struggle with owning what my life is up to this point, (as in I brought this to me to learn) and why the hell, now that I've figured it out, am I still stuck in this stinking city after losing my case to move?  I want to believe that thoughts become things, and in a way I really do.  When I first tried to understand that phrase, it meant to me that I wasn't good enough, thinking "right" enough....etc. all full of self blame.  
It confused me a lot, as I knew I was onto something, but didn't quite get it (not that I ever will!!)
Now I see it differently, because my outward circumstances have not changed, but I have, inside.  I could very well be still pissed off all the time.  From the outside, someone would say, all the injustice of my situation has not been alleviated at all.  But I choose how I feel about things which means  I am powerful and not emotionally controlled by my ex N..........which is HUGE for me!
 
I actually do know lots of people, whose outward circumstances are a reflection of how they feel inside (in my case, I didn't believe I was loveable/worthy and sought men who validated that by treating me like shit).  these people are the perpetual victims...life always sucks for them, and bad things always come their way...always.  I think "bad" things happen to everyone, and probably "good" things just as well, it's really all about the spin we put on them, that's all.....but some people make their stories and dramas  who they ARE!  And they are so addicted to the drama that they just get more of it (or subliminally seek it?)

 Hell yeah, I wish I knew the winning lottery numbers, but that is where faith comes in for me.  I trust that the stuff I need to learn will be there, and perhaps winning the lottery right now isn't going to be as meaningful as being in debt right now (damnit!).  Of course, I could try that out if I would buy a lottery ticket every once in a while!

Deepak Chopra is a teacher, and not all teachers are for everyone. I, for one, find his books a little haughty for my taste, but I know people who think he's great. I would take a comment like this man bringing total enlightenment with great suspicion.  Enlightenment, in my mind, is very personal and a never ending, ongoing process.  I am highly suspicious of anyone getting "saved" by anything other than themselves, really.
I have a lot of places/teachers where I have learned things on this path.
My semi-cynical friends teach me as much as the Dali Lama.

[Anonymous]

I think a narcissist will use spirituality, if it fits their persona, to get supplies. They may be guru types, "teachers," or "students of spirituality" - i.e., people who use the jargon, and even believe the grandiose parts of it, to trap unsuspecting partners who naively believe if they hear the talk that the person is also walking the walk.

bunny

[chandra]

I think a narcissist will use spirituality, if it fits their persona, to get supplies. They may be guru types, "teachers," or "students of spirituality" - i.e., people who use the jargon, and even believe the grandiose parts of it, to trap unsuspecting partners who naively believe if they hear the talk that the person is also walking the walk.

Bunny,

I don't think my ex N was using this just to impress me. He seems to sincerely buy into it lock, stock, and barrel. I just think that the nature of this specific spiritual teaching is subject to great misuse by someone with N tendencies. I read the original Conversations with God book because he really wanted me to. It did nothing for me. It seemed to be all about doing whatever is best for onesself at all times, regardless of anything else. I was really hoping someone on this board had read it and had an opinion on it. I want a non-Narcissistic take on the philosophy presented in the book. I can't bring myself to read it again because for me it reeks too much of my ex-N.

Chandra

[vunil]

Mum--

You're right (somehow on this subject opposing viewpoints can be right!).  I have known people who really do seem to pull misfortune to them.  But on the other hand they code everything as a misfortune, too, so it's tough to know what's causing what. I'd probably opt for the perception interpretation, but who's to say?

Just for another funny story, some friends of mine and I got on this kick that we were going to believe in the power of visualization.  There is some documentary on it whose name I forget that shows miraculous instances of visualizing changing the world and making great things happen.

ok, so before the election we gathered and had a visualization ceremony to help our favorite candidate get elected president.  You have never seen better visualization.  We had candles, we had little smooth stones, and we fully believed in what we were doing.  

Then we lost by a landslide (at least if you look at the states).

It was a good lesson in humility

As for Conversations with God, I haven't read it-- is it like those "talking to angels" books and seminars?  I do have some familiarity with those and would second your idea that there is a whiff of narcissism there (or more than a whiff).

[vunil]

re:  Talking with God

I went to Amazon to see the book and see if it triggered anything, and lo and behold, I have read it.  Someone recommended it, so I gave it a try.  I couldn't get all the way through it.  I remember thinkiing that it was just this guy saying what he thought and felt, but you couldn't argue with it because "God" said it.  I thought it was the same as anyone else proclaiming his divine wisdom.

Also, the guy isn't a very good writer.  You would think that God would be more articulate.

Just to confirm your thought that this is all very narcissisitic, the first paragraph of the book says:

"In the spring of 1992...God began talking with you.  Through me."


Well, gosh, thanks.  

I think that the narcissistic tinge to new age religion is more than just another example of narcissists using anything to get supplies.  It's that, of course, but I also agree that this religion is tailor-made for our narcissistic times.  It just fits perfectly.

Not that people can't take any religion (even ones that involve, for instance,  god being born in a stable and living out his days in humility and kindness) and make it a big blunt instrument of selfishness and power.

[Portia]

Chandra, I just looked up this bloke out of interest and found http://www.cwg.org/ - a whole website devoted to the books.

Okay I admit, I didn’t get beyond the welcome from Neale which goes:

“Dear Friend, Your coming to this web site means more to me than I could ever tell you. It says to me that you are one of the courageous ones. Someone on whom we can count on to continue the silent, individual search for the highest truth in order to make a difference in your own life…..”

I started laughing. Oh boy! What rot, what patronising, intelligence-insulting, assumptive, presumptive claptrap. That’s my opinion. Why?

He has no idea why I’m coming to his website but he presumes so much. That insults me.

“means more to me than I could ever tell you?” – too true, I’m not about to listen to him at all. No way. Because he has no intention of listening to me does he? Uh-oh, no. It’s a one-way monologue here and I’ve enough of those in my lifetime.   He obviously knows the one and only truth and he’s about to give it to me. haha. No thanks!

I am one of the courageous ones?? So, if I leave his website, I’m weak and not courageous?  

Seriously, I can see how this would appeal to a narcissistic personality. To be one of the chosen ones (as they surely already are!), one of the few who know the truth eh? Give me a break.

No wait. I just noticed a plug for this book, ‘What God Wants’:

“When was the last time you read a dangerous book?  Be careful. This book is dangerous.”

Brilliant marketing! I love it. It’s so clever, wow yes please, we all (in our 2 year old Nism) want to be powerful and dangerous and want to sit to God’s right hand. Beware any book that says “If embraced, it most certainly will change your life.” It’s appealing to people who don’t have a mind of their own.

How dare a human being presume to know what God wants???????? How arrogant. Does Neale think he is the new Jesus? Maybe he does. Maybe he is.  Maybe I won’t survive my criticism of his website. On the other hand, my God likes being questioned and criticised, he or she or it likes me to think for myself, so maybe I will survive. So will you Chandra

PS Vunil

"In the spring of 1992...God began talking with you. Through me."
Well, gosh, thanks.

thanks for the giggle...P

[write]

trait: people are of ten vulnerable when they are seeking support or enlightenment & who can argue with 'I'm right, God says'.
Fortunately a narcissist is likely pretty uncomfortable with the idea of a greater being than themself, so it's more likely to be a temporary posturing.
But I've read many times of people being manipulated by charismatic narcissists in spiritual or religious settings.
I personally am very leery of anyone who self-styles themself as a 'guru'.

[Portia]

Chandra, if you want some alternatives, have you read The Road Less Travelled? It may be 25 years old but it’s still good. I have a lot of disagreement with Scott Peck (particularly in his follow-up book, Further Along The Road etc), but also a lot of agreement!

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0684847248/102-9668796-3928126

http://www.mscottpeck.com/

PS write

Fortunately a narcissist is likely pretty uncomfortable with the idea of a greater being than themself, so it's more likely to be a temporary posturing.

The narc can obtain supply by aligning himself with the higher being. By inflating the higher being (supplying Him) the narc feeds themselves = 'covert' narcissism. But I agree about gurus. That's why I like Scott Peck, he openly says he doesn't have the answers.

[mum]

Portia; agreed...even if you don't agree with Peck, at least he's a good writer (one I don't mind supporting by buying books).

If you look on the internet, there are a zillion self help sites and the ones "that will change your life".....are actually like a sick pyramid scheme ("I became rich by helping others....buy my stuff and you can learn to bilk people too").I am not a cynic at all, but even I can spot snake oil.

Some are helpful, but even the sites of some "enlightened" writers I like are nothing more than advertisements.   Where is the love?

[vunil]

He has a book called "What God Wants"?  That is hilarious.

I went to his website and was laughing so hard I started to think it might be bad karma (to be so sarcastically amused) so I left.  I mean, whatever floats peoples' boats, I guess.  But the sunset?  The quotes?  Narcissism definitely lives.

The key to this kind of spirituality is that the person is really god-- the one who can communicate god the best, or the one chosen to give the news, the only one who really listens and understands, etc.

The talking-to-angels stuff is very similar.  Often the angel tells someone to do very selfish self-aggrandizing stuff, and then when people don't like it the narcissist can say "but my angel told me to!"  Really the narcissist is the angel, the blessed one exalted above all.


All of this reminds me of an e-mail I got from my dad yesterday.  My parents are furious with me because I wanted to begin talking about my crazy childhood with them and they would rather not (because there is nothing to talk about because of their extreme perfection in all ways).  They asked what I wanted from them and I said please go get some therapy.  That made them super-furious (perfect people do not get therapy).

Anyway, I get these very dramatic e-mails sometimes from them, and yesterday my dad sent me one that said "Congratulations on your baby" and then (new paragraph) "Your mother and I pray for you." Dum dum dum dum (cue dramatic music).  End of message.

Is there anything more insulting than having someone tell you (whom you never asked) that they are praying for you?  The layers of narcissism there are so deep that I can't even begin to make my way through them.  Especially coming from someone who was absolutely awful to his child and could profitably spend his time in church asking for his own redemption.

[vunil]

PS  "he" in the previous post is Walsch, not Peck.  Sorry for the potential confusion!

[mum]

Vunil: how about a reply of:  "why isn't that nice of you".  
Yeah, getting prayed for:  it smacks of "there is something wrong with you" when it comes from certain sources, huh?
How about "sending you happy thoughts....or you're beautiful....or your child will be blessed....."  Naw, wrong people, huh?