sponsor out there? Don't want to get sucked in again

[annabelle]

Hi,

Just wondering if anyone has some advice about not getting sucked in to really thinking soon-to-be- ex- N husband can finally change - that he finally gets it.  Just been through an awful weekend with him and this morning he said I was totally right, that he knows he has to change, that he is trying hard, that he might backslide, yahdah yahdah, that he will do "anything it takes" bc "I'm so important to him."  We've been here before, but I still keep thinking now that I told him exactly what's bothering me - exactly what he does, that he finally gets it and will change.  Please help me from falling off the wagon and trusting he'll change.  Thanks!  (Or, might he finally?)  He's had individual therapy, we've been to couples counseling, and I refuse to go to couples counseling any more, bc I do know it's primarily his (narcissism) problem.  I think he will definitely NOT change if he doesn't see a counselor trained in treating narcissists, and Dr. Grossman suggested it would take a few years at least, if a narcissist were to change.

I'm planning on leaving him when I get a job (in a few weeks) but I'm trying to be strong (and fair) until then.

Thanks,

Annabelle

[cindy]

I don't know if or when anyone else should leave a relationship.  I hung onto my Nhusband for 8 really bad years as he got progressively worse and worse, all the while alternately blaming me for everything and declaring he would change, stop, etc.  He just got better at lying about getting help and what he was really doing in his 80 plus hours away from home.

Mine, too, participated - kinda - in couples counseling, reluctanly, got the therapist to like him, and didn't do a thing, then would go to the next appointment and say "She's right, I didn't do what you said to do," all this passive aggressive diversion and charm.  Took me forever to get enough, as when I finally kicked him out I was a basket case, he controlled and had taken all the money, he was having an afair openly, and treating me like dirt. Finally, after 16 years total, I quit.

Finally I had had enough, and now, five years later and still with a stalker, I am so happy!  I can't believe I waited so long to do this.  I wish I had done it much sooner, and not wasted years being someone else's excuse for lack of responsibility and indulgence.

But like I said, I'm not saying you should leave.  I don't know.  I see others here are continuing relationships with their N, and it's best for them.

[Acappella]

Hi Annabelle,
 
How are you doing?  

I too am living with Mr. N hubby and have been to therapy with him.  I am also looking for work as part of my preparation for asking him to leave (or I will).  

I have left Ns before though this is the first time I understood the cycle had a name.  

Everyone is a bit different and when I look back what it took for me to leave in the other cases was different that what I am needing now.  The Ns I dated were far worse than my husband and I have grown in many ways since dating the other Ns.  I just contacted a boyfriend I had at 16 (25 years ago).  We hadn't been in contact for 25 years.  After the first phone conversation I noticed he was weirder than I'd even remembered.  That same week I started reading about Nism.  I realized he is a full blown raging somatic type.  I am so glad I left him and so glad I am still moving on even though leaving is even harder now that I've progressed to a less intense level of Nism.

The article I posted (see STEALTH RADAR) is excellent for support in recognizing what is truth and what is fiction particularly when an "apology" is made.
 
Thanks to therapy my Mr. N has learned to apologise sometimes. We moved to a new city and he is no longer in therapy and I doubt he will return to therapy and if he does I still can't imagine living with him or wanting to be in a "relationship" with him again.  I believe he has apologised a couple of times sincerely, once or twice in the past three years.  Only when he was in therapy.    Even when he was authentic in his apology he was/is also sincere in his sense of being entitled.  He is too comfortable to change as far as I can see.  

What I am finding helpfull in detatching from my Mr. N:

Understanding why and how I got into this relationship in the first place. (Didn't need this to leave the others though it would have been good for me to understand and perhaps I'd had left sooner if I did understand.)

Having support.

Working hard to feel proud of some of the very things Mr. N has relied on my feeling bad about, having needs and feelings for example.

Letting myself be needy.

Knowing I gave support to Mr. N.  I did my part. I kept my integrity regarding being the supportive person, lover, friend, wife I wanted to be.

Remembering I learned from this relationship and he cannot take that from me.

Not demoninzing him as it only make me less of a human and him appear more powerful.  See "hating the Narcissist" post on other forum for more grusome details.

Spreading out my sources of support so I am never again so dependent on one person's "validation".  

I post also on the NPartner forum (as Acappella) -link is in the STEALTH RADAR post.  

Stay true to your heart, keep speaking up for what you need.  
Echo[/list]

[annabelle]

Hi Cindy (and Echo, I'm going to reply to you in the next post reply),

Congratulations that you got out!  

It was so helpful to read about your experience with couples counseling.  My N husband said he wanted to go now (that I told him I want a divorce) and he said that even though he went before, he didn't really try and just went to humor me.  It was also so helpful to read that the N only got worse, and that since you left, you feel you should have left sooner.  This is very empowering for me!  

I know I do NOT want to stay with him and I wonder why people do.  Well, I can't talk, because I have for 8 years.  I guess fear of being alone?  Financial survival?  Kids?  I have kids and all these fears, but I know I'll be o.k. and like you, I can't wait to be "so happy!"  I'm so happy for you!  I've just got to make the big move (literally) - get a job and move.

****If anyone reading this is staying with an N spouse, could you share why?  Maybe it's something I haven't considered.  Like I said, although I know I do NOT WANT to stay with this man, I'm just trying to make sure I shouldn't.   Thanks!  and thanks again Cindy.

annabelle

[annabelle]

Hi Echo,

Thanks so much for your support and suggestions.  How are you?  It sounds like you've figured out some great strategies for dealing.

How's your job search going?  Do you know that you're definitely leaving?  I wish I had left after 3 years - after 1 year I was set to go, but got sucked back in.  First 2 years of our marriage sucked.  The next 3 years were good, but we had the distraction and gift of having 2 kids.  And, the past 3 years have sucked.  With my N getting worse and worse - more aggressive, less apologetic, more irrational, demanding, self centered - he runs his own business and has been saying "Just give me 4 years and all your dreams will come true - you'll never have to work again." (I need to work bc I like it very much - hello?  He doesn't get this.)   And, "If you stick with me for the ride...." blah blah blah, and, "It has to be about me for the next 4 years."  I almost bought into this self-centeredness but I know he chose his being an entrepreneur because of his Nism - rather than the other way around where he doesn't have to concentrate on himself bc of his job choice.   Meanwhile, I've worked full time while getting an advanced degree part time, while being pregnant with, nursing, and taking care of 2 kids.  It was and is, STILL all about him.  

And............. ***warning, about to vent, vent, vent.........***, he's got hang-ups on order, organization, a bad temper in which he's broken chairs, etc. etc. in front of the kids, and he doesn't stop yelling or terrorizing the place in front of them.  He's got obsessive compulsive traits - I have to:  pick up the soap instead of just touching it with my fingers to wash my hands, and spin it around ("so you don't just leave germs on the soap), I have to keep the kitchen sponges filled with dish detergent ("so the sponges don't smell") - (I mean, WHO smells sponges anyway?!)  I have to shake my hands after I wash them so I don't drip around the sink ("could get under the chrome of the sink and ruin it").  I have to shut my dresser drawers all the way without anything hanging out of them, I have to shut the closet doors all the way ("otherwise the hinges will become weak and the door will warp"), I can't use chopsticks for Chinese food or a spoon to help me eat my pasta (and I'm part Italian!) - because these things are too pretentious and bc he can't handle the sound of the spoon on the fork, I have to cut a bananna a certain way, I have to fold the (wet) towels up after using them rather than spreading them out ("folding them creates an air pocket" and even though less surface area isexposed, "they get drier better"), I have to keep my OWN clothes IN MY Dresser neatly folded, bc "what example does this set for our kids - we have to teach them the same thing."  He used to mock me for chewing too loudly - his N mother does this trick EVERY time we sit down to dinner to humiliate either her sons or her husband - I mean for God's sake, chips and raw carrots are meant to crunch - I swear the woman's like a conehead or a non-human the way she eats potato chips - NO crunches, and one at a time, chewing in the back of her mouth so as not to make any noise - which causes its own noise which is gross, and which my N does as well.........I digress more and more, but I haven't told my story and this is a way to purge.  So, if I don't listen to him - i.e. "Could you please wash the dishes in the sink before you finish putting the sauce on the chicken and putting it in the oven, because I don't have any room to wash my hands" - this when it will take me 2 seconds to stick the chicken in the oven and 10 to wash the dishes, and I want the chicken to be ready for supper ( and why can't he wash the damn dishes?) ............. so, I keep saying no to this "request" and he pushes me out of the way, throws the barbecue sauce across the kitchen, bangs the fridge so hard he breaks the bar on the door, yells, says, "I'm going to use the kitchen, you get out!"  in front of our crying kids......

oh yes, and when I'm driving in the car, I have to put my sunglasses back in the overhead compartment if I take them off rather than leave them in my lap bc I'll just be putting them back on in a few minutes when it's sunny again - (of course this is for my own good, so my sunglasses don't get scratched or broken).  Ironically, he ends up throwing my sunglasses across the car and breaking them when I don't comply)  He's thrown my stuff off my dresser bc my dresser top has been too messy, poured orange juice on the counters bc they weren't clean enough, and besides all this humiliation, violence, demands, he is not "there" when we're together.  Stares into space not saying anything during dinner, always has the t.v. on, etc. etc.  Acts like I'm bothering him.  Oh yes, and another thing, when I was nursing my 2nd baby when she was still a few weeks old, he demanded I get up from my lunch to put away the cold cuts ("right after you use them put them back in the fridge so they don't hang around"), and when I said I'd do it in a second, I was so hungry from nursing, and so tired frrom sleep deprivation, etc. he threw a fit.  I could go (and have gone) on and on.  I do feel hate for him, but also feel so sorry for him - that's probably the worst part of planning to leave.


Feeling sorry that you're going to "hurt" your husband.  I think he can feel hurt, bc obviously he's so miserable with himself and life, and misery is an emotion.  But, if I stay with him, I will be hurting (and so will my children) everyday for the rest of my life.  I feel so strong now that I've decided to leave, but I haven't actually left yet, so I'm not congratulating myself yet - I'm scared of the emotional outfall and confrontation and of hurting him (and I do have some self esteem, just feel so sorry for him)

You've only been in the marriage 3 years although I'm sure it feels like 50 for you - congratulations on planning to get out so early!  Good luck with your job search, stay strong, it seems like you do have more awareness and insight with regard to relationships with significant others, from your experience.  So help yourself now - you've sure helped so many others on this board, including me!  Thanks Echo!  Take care of yourself

Annabelle

[cindy]

Annabelle,

What I was most scared of was what he told me I was, did, etc.  When I detoxed, I realized I was OK - not perfect, but OK.  Nothing is harder than being with someone who makes you miserable, and controls whan you breathe.  Your storyabout the sunglasses sounds so familiar.  For me, it is joy to put my glasses anywhere I want.  Why shouldn't I?

Best wishes, and tell me what you decide.

[Jaded911]

Hi Annabelle,

I have read your post about your husband.  I want you to know how lucky you are actually.  Let me explain what I mean.  I have been out of my N relationship for 4 months now.  The relationship lasted right at two years.  This man that I dated has full custody of his 5 yr old daughter.  I have 3 children of my own and I welcomed the chance to love this girl as if she was my own.  About 6-8 months into our relationship, she began to have some problems at her preschool.  She was demonstrating alot of anger, she would throw temper tantrums, and there were alot of other behavior issues with her going on at that time.  I went in her room one night and I got down to her level so she would feel comfortable talking to me.  I sat down on the floor where she was playing with her barbies.  At this point of the relationship she was calling me Mindy Mommy.  At first it was Mindy, progressed to Mindy Mommy at the time of our talk.  So as I sat down on the floor I began to ask her what she had on her mind.  It was just her and I at that time in her room.  I said, "honey, why have you been angry at school lately?  Is somebody picking on you?  You can tell me anything and I promise you I won't get angry with you, I just really feel sad that you are sad".  I had my back to the door so I did not see my xN walk up to the door.  She began to cry and she said "I want to have a mommy that comes to pick me up from school.  Nobody else has a Mindy Mommy, they just have the one that got them(her words exactly, isnt that precious)  I told her I understood and that it made me sad to know that.  I asked her what I could do to make her sad face go away?  She began to cry, like I am now thinking about my conversation with her, then she said, "I just want you to be my mommy, and I dont want you to go away".  I turned around and he was in the door.  He came in and sat down on the floor with us and he asked her if that is what would turn her face into a happy face.  She shook her head yes.  I looked at this little girl, I spoke words to her that I later have play over again and again in my head.  I told her that if she wanted me to be her mommy, It would not only make her have a happy face, but I would have the biggest happy face she has ever seen if she would have me as her mommy.  She came over to me and I hugged her so tight and I suddenly realized how much that little girl meant to me.  I loved her so much.  I told her when she came to me and sat on my lap to look me in the eyes.  I said "honey you look at me, I would love to be your mommy, and you can call me anything you want, if you want to call me mommy, that is your decision.  I promise you that I will NEVER EVER LEAVE you.  You are so loved by me, if anyone ever makes that sad face come back, you have mommy to make you happy.  Mommy loves you and I want you to know how special you are to me".  My xN hugged both of us and told her how mommy and daddy loved her so so much, nothing would ever make me go away and that her mommy would start picking her up from school.  Her happy face would be there when her mommy picked her up.  This little girl meant the world to me, to my kids, and we loved her so very much.  Guess what Annabelle?  As with all Nist, the first thing they reach inside of you and pull out to stomp on that hurts you the most is what will hurt you the most.  This little girl that I came to love like my own was used over and over and over again by this cruel man.  
During an episode with him I tried calming him down by leaving the situation until he cooled off.  As I was walking out the door he yelled to his daughter "yup another mommy F** walking out the door on ya Amanda, she is as F** worthless as your first one.  She loves you about as much as the first B**ch did, she is walking out just like the first one.  
Later that night I checked my email.  He had sent me an email with a huge blown up picture of this little sweety.  He wrote and I quote exactly what he said,"You F** Indian giving B***, you promised to be this little girls mommy.  You F** two faced B**.  You look into those eyes and you know that you broke this little girls heart.  I want you to look into those eyes every single F** miserable day of your life and know that you are nothing but a liar.  Know that when you promised to never leave her, you were teaching her that all F** mommies run out on her.  You F** B**.  This little girl meant nothing to you.  You look at this picture every day and I hope that you ache over what you did to her".

Annabelle, you have the chance to leave with your children.  You have a chance to walk out that door with your children, I did not.  I did not have a chance to snatch that little girl up from that madness.  She is trapped in this hell of a life with him, I had no rights with her.  I wanted so much to take this little girl that I loved as my own.  Save your children Annabelle.  If you have daughters, do not let them grow up thinking that it is normal for a man to treat a woman like this.  Show them that a woman can stand alone without a man in her life.  I could not do this with that little girl Annabelle.  There is no protection for her in place with this man now.  You have the right and the responsibility to give those kids an emotionally stable foundation.  This is impossible while living with a N.  Please, you gave them life, give them a chance to live a happy one.  I could not offer this for my little sweety, I had no legal rights with her.  You not only have all the legal right to do what is best for your children, but as a mother, you have a moral obligation to give them what is in the best interest for their future.  God, I only wish I could have been so lucky to offer this to my new found daughter, she was so precious.  What do you feel her future holds?  You know the answer to that, prevent your children from suffering the same torture that she is bound to suffer.  
See how lucky you are?  Be strong Annabelle, if you don't feel strong enough to feel you can do it for yourself, fake it until you make it for the sake of your childrens well being.  Get the hell out while your children have time to recuperate from this N hell they have been brought into.  Children truly deserve better than this.  They need nurturing and they need role models who demonstrate strength during adversity.  Be strong for your children, I promise you the rewards will be plentifull.

[annabelle]

Hi Jaded,

Let me first say that your three biological children are so lucky to have you.  You sound like such a warm, welcoming, sensitive woman.  Amanda was also so lucky to have you.  We can only hope that she holds the love you gave her (real love, not N-love) in her heart and spirit to help her know she really is lovable.  I don't know what to say about her feeling like you abandoned her.  Of course you did not, but your ex-N is being emotionally abusive to her to make her think you did.  Hopefully she will keep the love of people who get close to her in her heart and in her head, grow to realize her father is the problem and the one his women friends have "abandoned."  Amanda needed you, and you were there for her.  Nobody can take that away.  I hope you can feel stronger with each passing N-free day.  Congratulations on getting out.

Thank you so much for your eye-opener.  I now realize I am lucky (albeit in the unlucky scenario of being a victim of a narcissist.)  I can keep and save my kids and I will.  I'm just feeling soooooooooooo guilty about "abandoning" my husband - he's acting like we're moving forward rather than getting ready to break apart  - i.e. "let's plan a trip alone together w/o the kids"  "let's plan an international trip" etc etc.  I KNOW he's manipulating me and turning on the charm in desperation and that usually he is Mr. Hyde rather than Dr. Jeckyl (or the other way around?)
and I know deep down he DOES know I'm leaving him - I've told him several times I plan to divorce him.  But, I just feel sooooo sorry for him that he is a narcissist.  I mean, he got to be an N because of unfortunate conditions growing up, and, because he is an N, he will never be happy.  I just feel so bad and sorry for him.  ALTHOUGH, I feel sorry for myself as well, and for my children.  And, I know that he will NEVER be happy (regardless of if I go or if I stay), and, that I will hurt him by leaving, but if I stay, he will hurt me (and my children) every day for the rest of my life.  So, rationally I know I will leave but emotionally it's crushing me.  I'm not scared of my future or my kids' future - rather, excited, but just sad for him.  

I got one job offer for January to start, and am waiting on another which I'm quite sure I got, so I'm looking at rental places as we speak, but I'm shocked that "this is it" - once I write a check for a rental deposit, I will be moving out secretly (I feel like I'm sneaking around and lying) and then tell him.  Finally, I'm wondering about the "No contact" rule - how it's done with kids (you need contact if you share kids).  And, how much to let him visit with them, how much the kids need him, etc.  I want to do what's best for the children w/o exposing them too much to narcissism so they don't become Ns.  I might post on these last 2 subjects, but if anyone has advice right now, I'd love to read it.

Thanks again Jaded, and I hope you find peace soon.

Annabelle

[annabelle]

Cindy,

"Nothing is harder than living with someone who makes you miserable and controls when you breathe."  SO TRUE!  THANK YOU for the simple truth.  It's just so simple - the Ns make us miserable, even if we're happy with everything else in our lives!  This is why I love my career, I love my kids, my friends, my hobbies, etc etc but I'm on prozac for the first and only time in my life, diagnosed with minor depression from ongoing stress of my relationship.  No matter how much prozac I take, though, my marriage does not seem more rosy.  It's just so HARD living as an N-partner!  In the words of Tiny Tim, "God bless us, everyone!"  

Annabelle

[hope2003]

anabelle:

i was married to my N for 6 years.  We tried 5 different marriage counselors.  Some where better than others.  Our last counselor was really good.  when the counselor focused in on the N, the N raged and quit.  The N was good at going through the motions, but it was impossible for him to do the inner work.

I wasted a lot of good years waiting for a breakthrough.  The N is worse than ever.  I hope that you will gain someone wisdom from our experiences.

[Jaded911]

Hope,
A friend of mine is a Psychiatrist.  He told me something in the line of a joke that actually describes exactly what you just stated.

To a Narcissistic person, what do they feel is a great Psychiatrist?  
~~Drum role Please!!~~
A great Psychiatrist to a Narcissistic person is one who FALLS FOR ALL OF THEIR CHIT!!!

He also went on to tell me that if they even agree to go to counseling, the first sign that their words are not being taken as the gospel truth, they walk right out the door.  Their relationships with their shrinks are identical to their relationships with their partners.  They just simply move on if they are not getting confirmation and supply.

[cindy]

I think you don't even know how unhappy you are, because you are kept so busy fixing things.  My N also used confusion and he'd just wear me down, so to survive I'd do things his way, no matter how convoluted and energy consuming, to keep semi-peace.

I have my own children story.  My then 14 year old son, in trouble and with a drug problem, as the biggest reason I stayed with my N for the last two years.  My son made no bones about planning to stay with his dad, and his dad not only let the kid run wild, he gave him $$ he knew would be spent on drugs.  I simply could not reconcile myself with leaving the boy with the man.

But when we separated, after some early waffling my son stayed with me despite the moniker I aptly earned, "Narco Mom".  Kids are smart.  They do not feel secure and loved with liars they cannot depend on.

The visitation and custody issue, you may want to visit www.saveyourspirit.org, or www.stalkingvictims.com, where Mother of Two has gone thru it all, and we've shared resources about solutions.  Most of the stalkers who were exs are Ns.

Best of luck.  Those first, final steps are so hard.

[hope2003]

I think you don't even know how unhappy you are, because you are kept so busy fixing things.  

you said it!

[annabelle]

You guys are awesome.  I really am learning from your experiences and finding strength from all of you.  Thank you! :)

Annabelle

[Jaded911]

Annabelle,

I will not lie to you and tell you that it has been an easy climb back up to the top, it was the longest, most suckish experience of my life.  

If my experience with my xN taught me anything it taught me to watch out for my best interest when my gut is telling me to listen.  Nobody cares more about you then you, I regret that I gave him the ability to conquer my spirit.  I felt emotionally raped after our breakup.  

I hope that I can look back on this one day as just a bad memory.  That day can not come soon enough for me.  I watched that movie today sleeping with the enemy.  That is what I have lived with for 2 yrs.  I just did not have the strength that she did to leave.  He finally after two years gave me something for a change.  He gave me my damn freedom.  Something he took without asking my permission.  Thank god he wasnt feeling I have him enough S, thank god he moved on.  He gave me a one way ticket to freedom.  I am gonna take it and run like hell as far away from him as I can get.  

You stay strong and the paybacks will be worth the wait.