Working with a Nar brother

[Guest1]

Any advice  how to cope with a Nar brother in the workplace?  I knew nothing about narcissism when starting this job which helped me reach a long term goal of certification in a certain area and working toward a more independent lifestyle.  The brother brought me in under certain guidelines which he has routinely broken for a newer employee which is a buddy of his.  

All last year I attempted to talk to Nbro about these  discrepancies with no luck. He would rage away and deny they were happening. WHen the year end salaries were revelaed, new guy had received about twice as much work as I had. We are independent contractors.  I vowed not to let this happen this year and devised my own system of geting more work and attempted to work this out with the new guy, who seems agreeable to it.  

Every time I get a good paycheck the brother makes snide remarks and/or rages away.  HE throw things, pounds file cabinets and routinely fires myself and the only other female in the office.  Yes, it does appear to be a female thing. She has been here 12 years and has devised some coping mechansism which we both employ.  

His rage extends into the family situation where he expects the women to be submissive and kow tow to his every need and demand.  He has four girls that I adore and I am concerned at times for their self esteem also. I cant suck up to him all the time,  but have been trying ways to stand up for myself and not be  the butt of his rage.  

Getting a different job right now is not an option.  There are no openings in our field at this time and I will not sacrifice the hours of school and money and time towards education to get this certificaiton for his rages.
He really doesnt want to work that much at the office and doesnt.  So if he fired me he would actually have to take some work himself.  I am sure he does not want to do this, so I do have some power.  

Just need new coping skills and how to not feel like it is my fault since I was raised that if the boys were angry or unhappy it was my fault. There is no  family suport here as usual.  They have been bending to his rages since childhood.

[mum]

Welcome.  Wow, your brother is classic!!!  Can you find a therapist who can work with you on empowerment?  On not taking on his stuff?  On letting it go and focusing on yourself?
I am at a loss.  I wish I could give you a magic bullet to fix this, but I struggle with an exN, who I am stuck with as well (we have kids together).
This man is a cartoon, just like your brother.
Many people here have similar situations. I have been helped  by the support here, but my ex has yet to fall off the face of the earth, so the help is pretty limited
I hope someone else responds with something more concrete.. otherwise, welcome to the club!

[Anonymous]

Welcome Guest1,

You're doing everything right as long as you're stuck there. Going behind his back to get more work (check), developed coping mechanisms (check). The only other things I can think of are ignoring your brother's tantrums, not discussing anything with him - I would use sound-bites to talk to him - and getting into therapy so you have a place to vent and get personal support.

keep posting,

bunny

[Guest1]

Mum and Bunny,
Thanks so much for your replies. It really helps.  I think I am somewhat mad at myself for reacting at all to him, but I was weekened by an aching tooth and his accelerated craziness this week particularly dumping stuff on me Friday and not even telling me about the field trip in time for me to arrange my schedule adequately.

I have had what I considered a good therapist now for about 10 years.  SHe has been very big on my giving up changing my family and instead changing myself, which makes sense.  I think she hsa been a little at sea about how to handle the brother at times.  She suggested talking to him all last year and believe me that got nowhere.  I will see her soon and see if we can reinforce the other concepts.

Thanks so much for your encouragement that I am doing the right thing as far as getting work, coping mechanism, etc. Desensitizing around him sounds like part of the answer.  I believe I have made strides in that area but I do cave at times.  

It is complicated by my affection and concern for his four daughters.  I am sure they hear him talk about me at home and it may be effecting the olders ones.  I know there is nothing I can do about that but also am concerned he uses the same behavior on them and his wife.  When I have seen him be hypercritical with the girls and wife, they usually just ignore him, but you have to wonder if the scars are going down anyway.  

I have a ton of books on narcissm, diffiuclt people etc but sometimes I forget to put it all in practice.  Reminders and help from here will really make a difference.

[vunil]

She suggested talking to him all last year and believe me that got nowhere

I think all of us have tried this-- how can you not?  It just seems like such an obvious thing to do. I think it might be part of the healing process; you have to see their odd response to fully move into the next stage of acceptance.

Your question about his family is a really tough one. Any overt action would fail miserably, of course.  As you well know N's love to see someone as an enemy and walking into that role would be unwise.

Maybe (?) if one of his girls reaches out to you for advice or in confusion you can offer your suggestions, without putting him down overtly.  I know that I would have really benefitted from a non-N relative growing up-- unfortunately, both of my uncles are worse than my dad so it was just awful for me.  Just being a paragon of good sense, empathy, and love, may draw them to you or at least give them the chance to see what normal human relationships look like.   It is a loss that is almost unfathomable to have an entire childhood surrounded by completely N relationships, because you then have to learn what the right kinds look like, in adulthood.  It's kind of like learning to speak a language as an adult versus a child-- much tougher.  Just by being an exception to the rule, so to speak, for them, just by contrasting with their homelife, you may benefit them greatly later.  You might let them know, just by your presence, that not all men are terrible.  And that's a lot to give them!

[Anonymous]

I'm concerned about my niece & nephew so I understand how upsetting it is to see your brother's abuse toward his family. All one can do is be available to the children as a better adult role model. Do you have a bond with these girls from when they were little?

bunny

[Guest1]

Vunil and Bunny,
Thank you for your replies.  I cant tell you  how much your thoughtful, insightful adivce is helping me.  

Vunil, thanks for mentioning that talking wasnt just an exercise in futility. Yes, you are right, that it is the first thing we do.  It is hard to accept that they dont give a lick about your feelings, fairness, the promises they made previously etc.  But it is the reality.

I get some relief form the only other female who shares an office with me.  She also can get very hung up on his gross unfairness, favoritism of men, snide, demeaning remarks, etc.  When I am more centered, I can help her by reminding her, he will never be fair, will always favor the men, put others down, etc.  

She wants him to change, but I remind her only we can change.  I am very thankful for her presence and feel we must have been put togehter there for a reason.  Ironically the bro was so afraid she and I would go at it because in his mind I am sure we are both femi-nazi b's from hell!

The nieces are another issue.  Yes, I have been spending much time with them since they are young. But I have noticed a pulling away in the last two years.  It may be becuase the older ones are 13 and 15 now and a natural teenage thing.  But, it may be the result of his treatment of me  and what may be said around the house.  

I have also felt a pulling away by his wife, who I always cared for and enjoyed very much. She has her own family issues and it could be that, but I dont know at this time.  I try to continue to be available and let the kids know, individually, I am here.  Of course they are also very busy on their own with tons of activities.  I also try to encourage the wife to let me spend time with the kids if she needs babysitter or they need some special attention that I may have a skill in.

It's a tough one, but as both of you have said, all I can do is be here if they need me and stay on the path of being centered and sane as much as possible.

[dogbit]

Wow, it seems you have a double whammy here.  He is your brother and your boss.  I recently left a job because my employer was very similar to what you describe.  Fortunately, I was able to leave (financially).  In terms of his being your employer, I would think it is hard to find support within the workplace since the other employees depend upon the income they are receiving.  The fact that you have one other person to talk with is great.  One thing you said I found troubling.  His wife is slowly withdrawing from communication with you?  A dynamic I experienced was that when I stood up to my employer, the other employees started distancing themselves from me.  One thing that helped me was to do a google search on narcissists in the workplace.  It helped me define the issues by going to a number of sites that described this situation.  It seems that the bottom line is to "not ruffle his feathers".  I think it is really important to know that it is not you...He sounds like a real problem!  Take care and don't lose your spirit!

[Guest1]

Thanks again for the help.

Everone seems to agree not to "ruffle the feathers." I guess my dilemna is he comes at me and others often for no apparent reason than he is "in the mood."  This is what appeared to happen yesterday.  

My question, what is the proper response when someone is coming after you, screaming, cussing, kicking file cabinets, degrading you in front of others?  Take it?  Say nothing? Change the subject?  Walk away? This is a valid question to which I cant seem to find an answer for myself.  

Other times it will just be the zinger cut, snide remark, out of nowhere.  For awhile I would answer rhetorically, "what is the proper response to that question" or some other vague, innocuous reply.  Also kind of liked that commercial where the response was "thank you".  Although it made no sense, it threw people off and they responded positively.

Guess I will need some clarification on your concern that his wife is pulling away from me.  Is there more to it that I am missing?

He is not technically my boss becaues we are indepedent contractors. It is his office though, which we are using and his contacts to get the work. He however gets a huge cut of all our work, so in some ways he needs us too.  I only say this to relay that I believe I have some power here and doubt that he would fire me as one an initial concern.

[bunny]

My question, what is the proper response when someone is coming after you, screaming, cussing, kicking file cabinets, degrading you in front of others?  Take it?  Say nothing? Change the subject?  Walk away? This is a valid question to which I cant seem to find an answer for myself.

In imagining this happening, I might do one of the following...

- ignore him completely or look at him blankly

- ask, "Can I get you anything?"

- Say, "I don't mind if you are upset but please leave remarks about me out of it." Yes he will become enraged but he may think twice next time. If you are fearful, he gets reinforcement for his tantrum. If you aren't fearful, he gets no reinforcement. That's what you want to happen.

- Quietly get up and leave the room, only returning when it's calmer.

No technique is going to work perfectly right away, as he has a very bad habit of trashing and destroying everything in his path. The goal is to get him to think you're an inconvenient person to abuse, and hopefully he will avoid you as a target.

Other times it will just be the zinger cut, snide remark, out of nowhere.

Ignore or look at him blankly. Or respond as you have been. That's okay!

I'm sorry about the older girls and wife pulling away from you. I suspect with the girls it's about being teenagers. They probably don't care what their father says about you. The wife, I don't know. Maybe she's scared that her husband will accuse her of disloyalty...?

bunny

[Guest1]

Bunny,

Thanks for all the coping comments.  I am cutting and pasting them to a hidden work file so I can read frequently at the office.

The help here has been invaluable.  Thanks again.

[bunny]

Guest1,

No problema. Hey, you might like this website. It's about romantic relationships with Ns but also applies to your brother's behavior.

www.drjoecarver.com (go to articles, "Identifying Losers in Relationships")

bunny

[Guest1]

Thanks Bunny,
I will keep this handy.

I feel the need to share an experience I had with this brother about ten years ago.  He came charging at me and knocked me to the ground in front of the entire family.  Nobody did a thing and later I was blamed.  I disconnected frm the family for several months and tried to get my father, who enables this behavior ot at least doesnt stop it, to go to counseling with me.  He refused.  The brother is a 6' bodybuilder and I am 5'2" and thin.

[vunil]

I am so sorry about what you've been through.  He sounds as if he is both narcissistic and borderline.  Actually, he sounds exactly like my two uncles, whom I mentioned in a previous e-mail.  They would rage at me when I was young and the whole family would laugh.

(need a moment to punch something....)

He also reminds me of my sister, who used to go into my room and trash it, throwing things out the window, breaking things, whatever, whenever she had a random rage.  My parents never did anything about it.  When I got too big to terrorize she turned on my little brother.  I have always thought of her as borderline (and I live pretty far away from her even now!).

Is this crazy guy really so important to your career?  I mean, honestly, do his clients like him?  Can't you take his clients away, gradually, without him knowing (he isn't going to ever know until it's too late)?  There are always excuses you could give for why they are suddenly working with you.  Or, just get your own clients?  Offices aren't so expensive that you couldn't find something or other, or maybe work out of your house.  Or, go into business (i.e., share the rent) with the woman in the office.  You know you can trust her and you have a shared history driving you away from him.

I worry that you feel you *have* to deal with him because you were stuck dealing with him in your childhood.   If you were in an office with a nutcase like him who wasn't your brother, would you ever stay?  


The hardest part of having nutty families is this sense of obligation to try to have a relationship with them-- it is the biggest source of stress in my life right now.  I think part of my feeling of obligation was put there by them-- I am obligated to put up with whatever they do because they are the kings and queens of the castle, the entitled, and my desire for something different is evidence of too much emotion, oversensitivity, craziness, whatever.  And I sort of still wish I grew up in the Waltons or the Brady Bunch-- I want to believe in family, to feel that loyalty.  


No idea if any of this reflects anything for you-- it is helpful for me to see your situation because it is so familiar to me

Your poor sister-in-law.  She must have major issues to be married to that guy.  Jeez Louise.

[Guest1]

He really pours on the charm for the clients and of course gets away with it because he is very good looking. Actually he is a much younger brother so I wasn't with him that much.  I went to college when he was 6.  The time I did spend with him seemed pretty nurturing and idyllic to me.  Like I would enjoy taking him places like I do now with his kids.  He get into all this body building at some point in time and it just got worse from there. I guess compensating for being the youngest? Who knows.  Mom was wacky when we were younger so sure that had some effect.

This next statment may reveal some of my shame and issues, but I always wonder if I am treated worse in the family because I discovered I was an alcoholic when I was very young, 19. As soon as I even attempted drinking,  I couldnt handle it.  I went to rehab almost immediately and it took me a few years after that to totally get down the disease concept etc.  

I have been sober for over 20 years but always feel, and sometimes Nar brother brings it up, that somehow I am less than becuase of that.  Of course if it wasnt that, it would still be that I am a female, so maybe I am giving it too much credence.

Nar bro said recently that he thought alcoholism was a weakness of character and reflection of an addicitive personality.  He was talking about his wife's mother who is a practicing alcoholic.  I told him that I spent too many years feeling guilty for being an alcoholic and wasnt going to feel bad about that anymore. Also told him he might want to embrace the disease concept since it is genetic.

AND ye,s wife does have issues because of her alcoholic mother and I am sure my brother.  She is basically a very nice person who probalby had a horrible childhood with drunken mother.  I feel sad for the loss of her sweetness that may be forthcoming or as someone said she may feel disloyal to him if she is too nice to me.

Re: geting out of here.  It is a concept I have tossed around with the other female. We probably could do it. Neither one of us is sure if we want to and there are downsides to leaving here believe it or not.

Thanks so much for your input.  This board has helped me so much today and this weekend.  I could actually get some sleep and come in here in a fairly good frame of mind.  It is wild that this type of help is available through the glory of the internet.