Working with a Nar brother

[Anonymous]

Hi Guest1,
I have always feared my brother has a twin somewhere and you have now confirmed those fears.

I have posted the condensed version of my lovely bro elsewhere, if you're interested in comparing notes.

My only solution for my sanity and long term financial freedom was to 'divorce' my brother in court. Are you certain there is no way out career wise? If you are truly stuck with him, then your best bet I think is to keep your head down and bide your time.

There are no half measures with these clowns. If you confront them without the absolute determination to see it all the way to the bloody end regardless of the consequences, they will out last you and you will be worse off than before. If you appease them, but only enough to keep them off your back, not as part of a strategy to sever your ties permanently, you will become oppressed and depressed.

My advice is get away from this creep permanently. There are two ways to do it. Stroke him and appease him while you line your options up behind the scenes to get out. Or, bark in his face like a Doberman as long as it takes for him to either back off or get rid of you. The second option requires a lot of emotional energy and commitment so don't do it unless you are utterly serious. And it might result in the complete estrangement from your family, as he will slander you in ways you can't even imagine if you challenge his nutty world.

You wrote,

My question, what is the proper response when someone is coming after you, screaming, cussing, kicking file cabinets, degrading you in front of others? Take it? Say nothing? Change the subject? Walk away? This is a valid question to which I cant seem to find an answer for myself

Have you considered a video camera? If he stops you have him off your back, if he doesn't you've got a very useful piece of footage.

Guess I will need some clarification on your concern that his wife is pulling away from me. Is there more to it that I am missing?

He is almost undoubtedly telling everyone he can that you are the most vile person alive.
I have had no communication from any relative of mine for over a year strictly because of a whisper campaign of lies and slanders by my brother. Its one of their favorite past times.

My solution has been a costly and drawn out legal battle with my creep. I decided I couldn't look myself in the mirror if i didn't try to stop him. However every situation is different. I won't tell you what to do, except this; do something. Don't let the status quo stand. Even if it requires a years planning, do whatever you need to get away from this jackass permanently.
I feel sorry for my brother because he is so screwed up, but I will feel sorry for him from a great distance. There is no part of him that is worth the damage he does having contact with him.

If you brother  knocked you to the ground then, he is a violent dangerous nut. Get out. If your family abandons you because they're enablers or afraid of him, that is still a cost worth paying to be free of this pig. Once you are free of his influence you will begin to see many things about your family, him and most importantly yourself that you can't see right now. Take it from a poor sap who was where you are a few short years ago.

I am so sorry you have gone through the same thing I have.   I'll pray for you and your situation. God bless.

mudpuppy

[bunny]

He came charging at me and knocked me to the ground in front of the entire family.  Nobody did a thing and later I was blamed.  I disconnected frm the family for several months and tried to get my father, who enables this behavior ot at least doesnt stop it, to go to counseling with me.  He refused.  The brother is a 6' bodybuilder and I am 5'2" and thin.

A few points here...

(1) Your brother is extremely disturbed. He has psychiatric problems. I assume the rest of the family is afraid of him. They are probably relieved that you're the scapegoat instead of them. This is very bad for you. What has your therapist said about the situation?

(2) If he ever does it again, consider calling the police as this is an assault.

(3) It rarely if ever works to ask family members to enter therapy with you. Don't even bother. Just work on your own assertiveness and boundaries.


bunny

[Guest1]

Thanks again, Guest and Bunny,

I would like to read your story, Guest, if you will tell me where it is.

Yes, I think I know he is very disturbed and you are right, the family is afraid of him.  The disconnect when I was young helped a lot.  I guess I should have known this wouldn't work but I actually thought he had changed.  Big mistake, I assume.  I had spent a lot of time with his children in the last decade and hadnt seen the violence.  I supposed  that he had gotten better since getting married.  Now that I think of it the "charging" incident was probably more like 15 years ago, before he was married.

Our parents are getting older and I wanted to be around in their final days.  Of course we never know if these are their final days.  I assume when they are gone the s--t will really hit the fan.

I think somebody asked what the therapist says.  I am not sure I ever told her about the charging incident.  She has pretty much guided me to accept that they will never change and try to change myself. This has been mostly successful.  SHe has tried to get me to work on switiching gears and knowing how best to handle him when he goes off.  It never is a pat answer. Sometimes yelling back seems to work and sometimes ignoring him or non answers.

I will take to heart your advice to investigate an escape plan.  I dont know if I really want to do that now, as I guess you can tell, so hope you all will still support me if currenlty I work on the boundaries, coping skills, etc.

Thanks you once again for listening and caring. It has made such a difference to me.

[Anonymous]

Hi Guest1,
The extremely condensed version of my brother and me  is on page two, under the thread 'Destroying an N is self defense not revenge.' Beware, I was pretty ticked off when I wrote it. Being able to vent on this board has taken a lot of that anger away, or at least put it on a slow simmer rather than a roiling boil.

The disconnect when I was young helped a lot.

Me too. Mine is seven years older so I didn't really notice anything seriously wrong til my late twenties. He has gradually gotten worse and worse.

I will take to heart your advice to investigate an escape plan. I dont know if I really want to do that now, as I guess you can tell, so hope you all will still support me if currenlty I work on the boundaries, coping skills, etc.

Gadzooks, I hope you didn't think I was implying its my way or the highway!    Thats why I said every situation is different. I will absolutely positively support whatever decision you make to cope. It is a tough spot you are in. Tougher than mine in many ways. I was giving you my perspective. If boundaries and coping skills are what you need now then by all means use them. My main point was, which i didn't make too clear, don't get paralyzed. These bozos have a way of conditioning our behavior so that we question any move we might make and often we end up not moving at all.
By the way a grown man who would bowl his own sister over ought to be horse whipped. What a wuss.
 

I have been sober for over 20 years but always feel, and sometimes Nar brother brings it up, that somehow I am less than becuase of that. Of course if it wasnt that, it would still be that I am a female, so maybe I am giving it too much credence.

These people use any weakness to get in amongst our fibers and make us question and doubt ourselves. You left a word out of that sentence so I'm not sure what you feel less than, but I have too many wonderful friends who have pulled themselves out of a bottle to judge you. I have always respected someone who has gone through that more after learning of it, not less.
I hope we can help each other here Guest1, we sound like we have a lot in common.
Once again, I apologize if you thought I would not support whatever course you take. You have to do what you think is best for you.

By the way you can call me mudpuppy.

mud[/b]

[longtire]

Guest1, Are you sure that you can't find work womewhere else?  Have you looked at it from a skills perspective?  In other words, can you use the skills you already know in another area?  For example, tolerating disrespectful, abusive behavior from people is VERY valuable in many jobs.  Yes, I am serious.  What about being organized, getting work done in the presence of distractions, computer skills, filing, phone calling, etc.  Have you looked seriously for another job?  Good people (motivated and self-controlled) are ALWAYS in short supply in my opinion.

As far as alcoholism, you are a person, not a disease.  It sounds like you have done a really good job to be sober for 20 years.  Talk about long term commitment and self-control.  Honestly, I think you are selling yourself short.  Keep going to a therapist and learn all those skills in between submission to him and leaving.  Glad you're here!

[vunil]

sometimes Nar brother brings it up, that somehow I am less than becuase of that

This is just more evidence that he's a knucklehead.  Not that we needed any more evidence!

For what it's worth, I asked my parents to go to therapy, too.  Along with trying to have a conversation with narcissists (which works super-great), it just seems like a natural rite of passage.  I got as far as you did, but I also got to learn that both of my parents are perfect and not in need of therapy, because they told me so. So, you know, that was good to find out...

If you did not have the past you have, he would think of something else to try to jab you with.  He probably picked this particular topic because he can tell it bothers you.  And secretly he is jealous of anyone with inner strength.

Once I realized how much jealousy underlies narcissism, it helped make a lot of things make sense. It explains why he shoved you, why he wants to  fire you and dominate you, why he wants to stop you from being around his family.  He suspects you are better than he is.  And in this one instance, he is absolutely right

And of course we'll all support you in whatever you decide to do-- please keep posting about your situation!

[Guest1]

Wow, you Guys are amazing.  I'm laughing with you on the one hand and going "ah hah" on the other.  

Vunil: "jealousy", I never even thought of that. but it makes sense.  Geez, how in the world do you combat that, if it is a jealous reaction?  I was kind of wondering if that was why his wife was pulling away, because somehow she was worried I was becoming too special to the girls.  

For awhile it seemed like the Narbro was picking fights with me at the office immediatley after I had done something special with the kids.  Wow, I will have to think of that.  And where to learn more about jealousy and the narcissist?

Guest:  I will read your story.  It is comforting to know that others have been through this. For so many years I thought it was me and took all the guilt and shame.  Of course everybody was more than happy to give it to me.  

I guess what I was saying about not being ready to escape is I didnt want to seem like one of those people who complains and never does anything about it.  Thanks for the support either way.

I appreciate you all being supportive and reassuring about the alcoholism.  I know it is something I have never fully come to grips with. I do feel shame even though I know it is the disease. It seemed like everything hit the fan at 19 between folks not accepting my independence and natural sexual emergence, the alcoholism, the revelation no women were allowed into the business.  

I think it took me years to get all that together and I am still working on  it decades later.  I agree the Nars will take anything to make you feel less than..you're a woman, an alcoholic, short,  whatever.  To look at our family most people would say, Wow, what a great family, communty leaders, etc.  Sometimes I think I am going to figure all this out like the day before I die.  It just seems there is so much to learn and evolve with.

[mudpup]

Guest1,

To look at our family most people would say, Wow, what a great family, communty leaders, etc. Sometimes I think I am going to figure all this out like the day before I die. It just seems there is so much to learn and evolve with.

You sound like you are where I was (and still am somewhat). Trying to seperate your individuality from your family. Am I right? My bro was always trying to make everything a family affair; of course with his nefarious little fingers in all the pies. Its sick the way they do it. And if you act independently you're labeled a traitor. Does that sound familiar?
That's where I was anyway, and until I got away from good ol' bro I didn't realize how controlled I was.
Vunil is right about the jealousy. It is a key feature of every N. Inside they feel like they've got nothing and everybody else has what they want. And they're right. How can they not be jealous with that mindset?

mudpup

[bunny]

For awhile it seemed like the Narbro was picking fights with me at the office immediatley after I had done something special with the kids.  Wow, I will have to think of that.  And where to learn more about jealousy and the narcissist?

N's are all super-envious. That is a hallmark of narcissism. What you can do about it....ignore his envy, do not react to it, do not act like you've done anything wrong. You can't make him less envious. All you can do is react very little. With this guy, it's all about giving him no reinforcement. He wants you to react and he baits you at every opportunity. He tries to push your buttons. This means you should not let him see that he's succeeded. Even if he got to you, show nothing in his presence. Your goal is to bore him and make him less interested in you as a target. Make yourself almost blank. You don't have to act that way to his wife or children but be very bland around him.

Your family is all about the veneer but you aren't like that. (thank goodness)

bunny

[Portia]

Guest 1, sorry coming in a bite late here, but  - about alcoholism. (Please read this with a jaunty kind of laughable air okay? I'm worried it might sound 'preachy', I don't mean to.) If you had a particular food intolerance, you wouldn’t eat that food right? Let’s say you gave up wheat 20 years ago and in those 20 years you’ve felt fine. Would you today be saying I’m a wheataholic? Would you consider that a ‘disease’?

Saying you’re an alcoholic is labelling you, like you have some innate badness inside you. Rubbish! Alcohol doesn’t agree with you, so you don’t drink. It doesn’t make you bad. It’s the effect of alcohol that’s bad. How does “I have alcohol-intolerance” sound? Different?

Labelling you an alcoholic is about as sensible as labelling everyone ‘food dependant’ or ‘cyanide-intolerant’.   Stupid. After 20 years it’s no longer helpful to even think about it being part of what makes you ‘you’.

Do smokers who give up for 20 years call themselves ‘smoke-aholics’ and say they still have a disease? Oh they probably do these days! It’s just words and labels and they can be so dangerous in shaping how we see ourselves. Sometimes just changing the words slightly can help us see things in a whole new way.

About using terms like ‘practising alcoholic’ (PA). This is how I would describe:

You: someone who discovered they react badly to alcohol and therefore doesn’t drink it. A sensible person!

PA: someone who discovered they react badly to alcohol but prefers to kill themselves quickly by continuing to drink it. Suicidal!

You aren’t in the same category as the PAs. BUT using the terms ‘alcoholic’ and ‘practising alcoholic’ puts you in the same sort of category doesn’t it?   You kind of get the shame rubbing off on you which belongs to a completely separate group of people. It doesn’t belong to you, it’s not your shame. In fact you have the opposite to shame: you can be really very proud of the fact that you faced your intolerance straight away and dealt with it!  

You started out with a lot of hurdles to face (being female, having a brother like yours etc) and in jumping those hurdles, you’re a stronger, wiser person. Tell him that next time he mentions an ‘addictive personality’. “Yeah, I had all those problems and I overcame them, what are your achievements buddy?” Say you have another problem too: ‘idiocy-intolerance’!

Phew. I didn’t realise I felt quite that strongly about this! I think I feel strongly about mis-use of words and giving groups of people labels. We’re all individuals. And you sound pretty cool guest1. P

[Guest1]

Bunny, Portia and Mudpup,
Thanks for all the encouragment.  I do need to remember to stay bland and blank.  It is so unlike me, but I must remember this.  It is difiuclt to understand the jealousy but you guys are really helping.  WHen I first got sober Mom seemed so jealous.  I really didnt understand it although we had some typical and untypical mother/daughter struggles for many years.

I know that the alcoholism has effected my self esteem greatly.  Again it is that perfect veneer that was shattered. Intellectually, I know what you say is true.  It still takes time to sink in.  When I add up all my "issues", if you want to call them that, and what the family does to label me, it is a constant struggle.  I very much appreciate you guys seeing through that to the pretty neat person I do think I am.  

Narbro actually gave me some work yesterday so maybe we are getting somewhere.  Also the work he dumped on me Friday was sitting in the completed basket Monday morning so he can't say I am too slow, which is one of his ridculously rubbish reasons why he gives new guy more work.  I will stay below the radar.

A good day to all.
b

[mudpup]

Hi Guest1 AKA b,

I know that the alcoholism has effected my self esteem greatly. Again it is that perfect veneer that was shattered.

I think that's one reason everyone gets along so well here; none of has a 'perfect veneer' to worry about anymore. The fairy tale life ended for most of us early on when the N troll under the bridge  showed up in our lives.  
You sound smart, realistic and wise in dealing with your situation. Its quite a shock when you start learning the depths of an Ns problems isn't it? I think you are on a very even keel. Much better than I was doing at the same stage.
Maybe if you could look at the shattering of the veneer as a positive thing that made you stronger and wiser at a young age, it would help with the self esteem thing.
Like I said before you had a problem, you faced it and licked it. That's real life. That is something to be very proud of. A silly phony facade we erect is not. The veneer is what's shameful, and more importantly a phony veneer is a sign of a powerful self esteem issue. One most people won't admit they have.
By the way have you copyrighted 'Narbro'? Do you think I could use it, I like the sound of it.

mudpuppy

[Guest1]

Hi mudpup,

I like the Narbro thing too.  Feel free to use it.  The "Narbroro Man".

Thanks also for the reinforcment.  I think 90% of the time I am glad I had the hard knocks early.  It did force me to get help and examine/evaluate my life.  I am lucky in many ways.  I have had a pretty exciting life. traveled around the states a lot.  Tons of different jobs and careers. Lived in some different places here.  I allow the family  make me feel bad at times for take you pick

1. never getting married
2. no kids
3. being an alcoholic
4. not conforming to the perfect veneer lifestyle
5. recent Nar bf reincarnation

Intellectually I know I have been very fortunate to have the roadblocks because a lot of the silly stuff in life isn't that important to me..at least not usually.  I need refresher courses at times and this place is great for that.  

I loved the voicelessness title because that was initially what my current therapist wanted to focus on.  I was having some TMJ style issues and ultimately I believe they were connected to strangling my own voice.  Has anyone else experienced the physical impact of no voice or losing your voice?

I could then often go to the other extreme of too powerful, loud, abrasive when in a power struggle situation.  It has meant a lot to stay grounded in my femininity and get my point across from a centered spot.  I believe I thought they were mutually exclusive when in the throes of battle.

I would like to continue to work on this as well as the ever creative ways to handle Narbro.
b

[mudpup]

Hi again Guest1,

The "Narbroro Man".

Wow we are definitely on the same wavelength. Thats exactly what I thought of when I read narbro. I almost said something about it in my post but figured nobody would know what I was talking about.

Has anyone else experienced the physical impact of no voice or losing your voice?

Well I had laryngitis over the weekend but I think that was from my bronchial infection. Probably doesn't count, huh?

Good luck with your Narbroro Man. Maybe his horse will kick him in that certain spot for you.

mud

[vunil]

1. never getting married
2. no kids
3. being an alcoholic
4. not conforming to the perfect veneer lifestyle
5. recent Nar bf reincarnation

Well, if that all qualifies you as terrible, then I guess we're all just hopeless cases

Poor narbro man.  What will he do when he runs out of people to be mean to?