How has it effected your femininity

[Brigid]

Bliz,

She is on strattera (sp), not that it matters, but the side effect was she lost a lot of weight. She was a pudgy, somewhat sweet little girl and in a few months time she became very thin and into all the usual teenage things. NOt that it is bad, but it concerns me it came from a pill.

I would have concerns about other things than the medication.  My son is ADHD and has been on meds since age 5 (he's 20 now).  Strattera is a new medication for this condition that is not a stimulent, controlled drug like all the others that have previously been used, i.e., ritalen, dexadrine, etc.  Since my son has been on Strattera, his appetite has no longer been affected by taking meds and he eats all the time.  When using the previous stimulent drugs he definitely had diminished appetite, esp. in the middle of the day.  

Based on other dysfunctions in the family, perhaps she should be evaluated for an eating disorder or at least be carefully monitored to see what her eating habits are.  At the very least, the parents should contact her primary care physician or whoever is providing the script and discuss her drastic weight loss.  She's at that age where girls are so concerned about their looks and wanting to fit in, that they are very prone to finding unhealthy ways to make that happen.  

Just thought I would pass that along.

Brigid

[bunny]

But have any of you women ever noticed how much more the appearence of women is commented on at work (compared to men)?  Have you ever had the experience that you're talking about something important at work and the man you are talking to interrupts you to complement your hair or outfit?  It happens all of the time, even in meetings (!)  and it's clear what the message is.

[Not where I work. The men's appearance is constantly the topic of conversation. The only man who complimented me was from a Latin country, so if he didn't, I must be as hideous as a witch. In my workplace there are strict rules about sexual harassment. People are pretty uptight about complimenting each other for that reason.]

But to get back to playing a role -- here's my philosophy -- everyone plays roles including the men. They have to play the parts that their parents scripted, or that society scripted. Life is a stage and all that. I think if we know and like ourselves, we can play certain roles at certain times and not feel deeply conflicted about it. We know we're doing it for our own advancement, or job security, or to get something done. It's not for our parents' satisfaction anymore. It's for survival in this particular social setting. As long as we can shed the masks later and let our hair down with safe people. For me wearing the mask is just something one has to do in life. I accept it. And the mask is a part of me. I'm not totally faking it. It's just not a part I like to play most of the time.

bunny

[Bliz]

Thanks everyone for your deeply felt  comments on these issues. It has taken me quite some time to mesh the different and at times dissonant messages.

I agree there is role playing on everyone's part regarding male/female in the workplace. It is only recently I realized I could be both feminine and powerful.  Sometiems I actually play with that whole thing. For instance on the construction sites.  It still is a stuggle for self esteem at times especialy  with the contineud message from family that woman are not as valued.

Reagrding my nieces eating habits, it's just not my place unfortuatnley to comment to her parents on this.  I do not see a health issue at this time but there could be one later. Mostly I hate the message that she is more valued for her appearance than anything.  I jsut rememebr how painful this was for me and how many years it took and is still taking to sort it all out.

[Anonymous]

Bliz,

I can relate to the sadness and helplessness here. You're doing the right thing by role modeling an adult who doesn't have to be perfect. It's possible that they will be influenced by you. I'm trying to do the same thing with niece/nephew who have two dysfunctional parents. I doubt if I'll save them but maybe I can mitigate it a little.

bunny

[mum]

Hey, Bliz: are we related? Because except for the medication, you could be describing my daughter (your niece).  Body changes, weight loss are perfectly normal at this age.  Losing baby fat and changing shape are all normal.  I know medication is a concern, but kids not on meds do exactly the same thing.
My ex would make comments about my daughter's apparent "pudginess" for a few years...I was adamant at drilling into his thick skull that he should NEVER comment on that to her, that this is normal, etc for her age, I even sent him papers out of medical texts to shut him up.  However, it was clear to my daughter that dad didn't approve....but she had me to vent to and go for acceptance.  Now things have changed again and she is taller, thinner and looking like a grown woman.  I notice boys and young men look at her.  Now my ex is all freaked out that she looks like a woman!  HE will never be happy with his children.  

As far as the not thinking adults are cool, or certainly not wanting to cuddle like a little kid, this is also very normal.  Behavoir changes, trying on attitudes are all part of it.  It is the teenager's job to become autonomous.  Absolutely essential to survival and growing up.  As long as they know they CAN get a hug when THEY want, or can have a safe place to act babyish at times, that behavoir is perfectly normal and expected.  A great book on teenagers is by John Wolf> called "Get Out of MY Life, but first will you drive me and Cheryl to the Mall?"  the title sums it up.  The book is great for anyone who has a teenager in their life!

My daughter is also wound rather tightly, straight A student, very active in other activities, teachers think she's great, etc.  I do believe her perfectionism may be in part to walking on eggshells around a very N dad, but it's also her nature.  She has recently started trying out different "looks", different friends, all within normal.  I keep my eye out, put my foot down on occassion, but she needs to do this, with safe back up (me).

Don't take it personally when she rejects you.  You are an adult, therefore not too cool.  The "closer" she felt to you in the past, the more rejection you will get.....so be complimented!  This doesn;t mean they get to treat you like crap...."I don't appreciate that comment" is perfectly acceptable....but asking them to be cute and little again is just pointless.
She will respect you, but don't expect it to be the way it was.  In a few years, you'll be the cool aunt again.  Lucky kid.

[Anonymous]

Hi mum,

HE will never be happy with his children.

He will never be happy, period. If your daughter can understand that she'll know where his 'junk' comes from. Hopefully she already does.

mudpuppy

[Anonymous]

Feminine:

Characterized by or possessing qualities generally attributed to a woman.

yourdictionary.com

I agree with Portia then, what are the characterisitcs and qualitities generally attributed to a woman?

I don't know what those are, other than obvious physical characteristics.

No wonder I have a hard time with this one.

I like certain things (like bunnies and frilly stuff and pink, more so purple, make up, dresses, etc, sometimes...........oooooooh.....I also like bull dozers and fishing and my water saw and driving tractors and building stuff etc.).  Those are my likes though, not characteristics or qualities.

So now I really am confused.   I need a list of feminine qualities and characteristics and then I'll need to see if I possess those or not, to clear this up.

GFN

[Anonymous]

GFN,
Your likes indicate you are what my daughter calls a Tom Girl or half a Tom Boy. That's what she claims to be anyway. She's also a purple lover along with my wife.
My wife on the other hand is all girl, she makes fun of the way I rubber neck at every big yellow machine I see. She has an alarming blind spot where heavy equipment is concerned, but I love her just the same.

But the bunnies, the bunnies.... oh my gosh the bunnies. They're everywhere. They watch me when I eat. They watch me when I sleep. They're even in the bathroom.  Stuffed ones, porcelain ones, stone ones, wooden ones.
Actually now that I think about it I got her quite a few of them myself so I guess I oughta button my lip. It just seems like they multiplied.
And to her credit she has asked everyone to NOT get her any more bunnies. Something about having to dust them all.

mudpup

[Anonymous]

Maybe there is being a woman which includes being aware of one's anima and animus in one integrated person (female and male energies). And there is being feminine which is more about expressing one's anima at that moment. And one can be womanly and feminine at the same time.

bunny

[Anonymous]

Hi everyone:

Mudpuppy:  I see energizer bunnies chasing you around all over the place!!!  They just won't quit!!  Poor, Poor Mudpuppy!!  Why on earth did you buy so many for her???

Your likes indicate you are what my daughter calls a Tom Girl or half a Tom Boy.

See I don't see it that way.  I see what I like as what I like, not what I like as what I am.

I love to sew.  I paint pretty things.  I make lovely mosaics.  I love stuff that sparkles.  Fiddling with flowers and plants.  So what?  Does that make me feminine?

I'm still confused.  

I love digging gardens and trenches with a good excavator machine, in the hot sun or better yet......moving piles of gravel and sand!!!
I like the smell of diesel exhaust and especially that coal smell off antique steam engines and the heat they generate and the power!
I can even suck back a smoked turkey leg and chug a large draft beer but that doesn't make me masculine, does it?

Are you saying male/female is defined by likes and dislikes?

OH......I'm in bigggggggg trubbbbbble!!!  A feminine-mascule!!!  

I think the media has convinced us of some of this.  I don't buy it.

I like what I like and I am very feminine or not so feminine, depending on who is deciding.

I still want a list of what that is--what qualities and characteristics (other than physical because I think I have that part memorized) make one feminine and.....come to think of it..... who gets to write the list?

GFN

[Anonymous]

GFN,

I see what I like as what I like, not what I like as what I am.

Well my daughter is twelve so I'm not sure you should take her definition as the last word on the subject.
However, what you like also is what you do. So maybe what we do is what we are, if we are doing it for genuine reasons.

Are you saying male/female is defined by likes and dislikes?

No, but maybe our likes/dislikes are defined by male/female. I seem to remember some studies done on toddlers who had purposely been sheltered from gender influences and the little boys still went for the guns and trucks while the girls gravitated to the dolls and tea sets.

Who knows? I think it was Potter Stewart who, when asked what obscenity was, said he couldn't define it but "I know it when I see it". Thats my stance on femininity.
Maybe femininity isn't definable. Maybe its one of those mysteries of life we shouldn't think too much about, but just enjoy.

Why on earth did you buy so many for her???

Because she likes them, and I like her to have what she likes. I actually made her one out of soapstone as well. However I only bought her a  fraction of her collection.  Most came from friends and family. I don't recall her ever asking anyone for a rabbit, they just kind of showed up. Anyway the population explosion is over, so we're safe. Rabbits are a lot cheaper than what I have a habit of collecting anyway, so who am I to complain?

mud

[Bliz]

Hi Mum,
Thanks for this upper.

 "Don't take it personally when she rejects you. You are an adult, therefore not too cool. The "closer" she felt to you in the past, the more rejection you will get.....so be complimented!"

Not having my own kids you can see how totally at sea I am.  You guys are really helping.  

I hope you are right about the perfectionism and it dosent drive the one into the ground.

WHew!!  I can really feel the angst of the parents as they go thorugh these stages.  I know my Mom got her craziest when I wa a teen, young adult.  She kept saying I was changing and wasnt the sweet, (read submissive) girl I used to be.  It made me feel like crap than bu,t now I think I understand it from both sides.

It is so great to talk about all these growing up and feeling feminine issues.  Especially finding out I am not alone.
What is this anima/animus thing?

[Anonymous]

Anima and animus are like yin-yang. The model of male and female energies. Male energy is more about action, getting stuff done, accomplishing things, doing. Female energy is more about imagining, creativity, feeling. We all have both energies but obviously men are have more dominant male energy and females more dominant female energy (for the most part).

bunny

[Bliz]

Thanks for clearing that up.  I would say I have more of the male energy than the typical female.  Maybe that is part of my dilemna.

When younger I alwasy dreamed of having the "great adventure" and doing exciting things, traveling all over the place by myself etc.  I always loved, "exploring" outside in the woods, creeks, river banks, etc.  I love a good hunt for things like artifacts. I still do all of these things and still love it.

I often felt more indentificaiton with male things like that.   I did and still do rebel at being demure, waiting for things to happen to you, having a ton of patience with things.  Just babbling here and trying to figure out if this is a direct reaction to being raised  where women were not valued or just things I like.  

I have never been good or even able to "play games" or be coy in a relationshp. This has been a greart disadvantage to me  as I would probably be too honest and forthcoming. Dont know.  Also just a real possiblity I picked the wrong guys.  It would seem to me in many of my relationshps with men they were drawn to my independence and adventure and then would slowly try to take it all away from me. Now maybe that is just a being attracted to Nars thing.

Dont know.  But still struggle with that balance between being feminime and still the me that is sort of a tom boy and guy's guy or something lke that. I am not unattractive or masculine in appearance.  Actualy very petite and "nice looking", so I am told.  Just trying to bring it all together to a me that is comfortable with the animus and anima.  Help!!

[Anonymous]

Hi Mudpuppy and all:

So maybe what we do is what we are...

Then I am feminine slash masculine according to that definition (or masculine slash feminine--depending on the day or time of day).

...maybe our likes/dislikes are defined by male/female.

So the female in me has certain likes and the male in me has certain likes..by that definition, depending on the day or time of day.

Why do I suddenly feel like I should be having a gender identity crisis?

Maybe femininity isn't definable. Maybe its one of those mysteries of life we shouldn't think too much about, but just enjoy.

Whew !!!  Maybe you're right.  Or maybe it's being defined for us???  Maybe it's not so black and white, cut and dry???

Why on earth did you buy so many for her???  

Because she likes them, and I like her to have what she likes. I actually made her one out of soapstone as well.

Awwww....that's very nice.  I bet she treasure something you took such care and time to make for her.  I love gifts like that!!!  They mean so much (heart icon needed immediately).

Well.....I'm not going to worry about how masculine or feminine my likes and dislikes are, or how feminine or masculine what I do is.....because I know I'm just not characteristic.....so maybe that's a good thing.  At least I'm not boring.

To apply this to the original question of this thread.....I think the fact that I am possibly rebellious about it all, or I've just ignored the unwritten rules about what I am supposed to like/do to be considered feminine, does come partially from seeking happiness in my own life, in my own way, because so much was stifled/controlled/disallowed/etc during my childhood.

On the other hand.....a lot of the time... I just think we're all people and entitled to have whatever likes or dislikes we want and that wanting or enjoying certain gender-identified-specific activities....neither makes us one thing or another.  It is simply an example of our beauty and uniqueness as individual human beings and an expression of our real selves.  But I do realize that the majority rules.

Enjoy your evening.

GFN