How has it effected your femininity

[Bliz]

I probably spelled that wrong.  

I recent years I have pondered how being raised in a narcissistic, male centric family effected my femininity and would be interested in hearing the experiences of others.

I am the only female sibling among three boys.  I often identified with my father as a child becuase my mother was kind of psycho at times and it scared me to think I may grow up like her.  There seemed to be a real pattern going back generations that woman were not valued.  I had kind of a crazy aunt and many female relatives who never married and or died young.  I always worried about becoming the crazy aunt.

Strking out on my own in life after college I believe I often felt taken advantage of due to my naivety (sp again) and that I was a woman.  I think I purposely tried to do things that most woman didnt do. It gave me a feeling of power and control over the situation.  I believe I really buried that feminine side because I believed it was weak and unappreciated by the world.  Ironically, when in relationshps,  I usually gave up all my  power and almost always felt the weak one.

In recent years I have made friends with the feminine side and played with being feminine and getting my point across when needed.  Of course I am still called a bitch by some, for doing that, but dont take it so seriously now.  I have noticed my look has gotten more feminine over time and I have become more comfortable with it and even enjoyed it.

Still woman are not valued in my family so it is a constant struggle.  Would enjoy hearing from others on this topic.  Male insights would be good too.  Like how do you perceive a woman when she is in a power position.  Are there times when you can appreciate a strong, yet feminine woman.  Are there cetain characteristics you like or dislike about woman in a power position?

[sleepyhead]

Hi Bliz! First of all I have to comment on:

I probably spelled that wrong.

Nope, you didn't, and even if you did, it wouldn' have mattered. This is one place where you never have to worry about being perfect! So take that fifty-pound backpack off right now!

It's pretty funny, but I grew up in an all female family, and I was still not allowed to be feminine. I have had to learn slowly, over the years, that it actually is ok. I didn't learn how to shave my legs and armpits until I was nineteen! And then it was a friend who taught me... (Let me just interject here, you don't have to shave your legs or wear make-up or dresses to be feminine, but for me it was something is was not allowed to do, so for me it spells freedom, even though it may spell oppression for someone else.) I was raised as a tomboy and it took me many years to realise that this was not my own choice, it was something my mother chose for me. These days I wear make-up if I feel like it and I love wearing nice clothes. A few years ago I realised that pink actually suited me! In contrast to the awful shade of light blue that my mother forced me to wear all through my childhood .

My mother always roots for the men, is always on the man's side in a conflict, no matter what they have done, and I think she feels deep down that women are inferior, not worth as much as men. Although she claims to be a feminist and is very outspoken and never backs down if she disagrees with a man. The funny thing is that after I started wearing make-up and dressing up, so did she! Mirroring her mirror? A need for the images to match? A need to compete? Anyway I think these people she femininity as being weak and masculinity as being strong, which of course is bs. I can wear a dress and make-up and even have curled my hair and still speak up for my self and what I believe in. Having boundaries and opinions doesn't make me any less of a woman, just as crying and apologising doesn't make me weak. Hope I could help, and glad to hear that you're finding your own femininity, b/c it really is a different thing for everyone.

[Portia]

Hi Bliz. What do you mean by feminine? I reject most things that make me particularly overly female. I do female type stuff to fit in with society and not look too eccentric.

But being feminine – I don’t know what it is?

E.g. I think high heels are ridiculous and impractical and won’t wear them any more (they’re all about sexual power games and that’s pretty primitive in the boardroom….mind you, I guess most boardrooms are childish and primitive!).

I guess the most feminine thing to do is to bear children. Yep, motherhood is feminine I think!   Good mothering is also completely powerful. The power to shape the future through your children, that’s about the tops as I see it.  

I’ve been the victim of sexism because I’m female i.e. paid much less for equivalent work but that’s about the attitudes outside me. Still, I’d be interested to see what others think is meant by ‘feminine’, I’ve wondered about this recently, in connection with the way we use labels. My H said a woman at work was ‘masculine’ and when we talked about what that meant, it boils down to a woman not being sexually attractive, which is pretty banal.

[sleepyhead]

I think being feminine is being who we are. After all, if you're a woman, then what you are must be feminine, right? As long as you feel that this is your true self and not what someone else or society tells you what to do. I enjoy being "girly", but have friends who have never worn make-up or high heels, but I don't see them as being less feminine, just a different kind of femininity. I think that what we are ultimately robbed of as children of Ns is our true self, and the expression of that self, no matter what form it takes. (Yay, I'm on the board at the same time as someone else! )

[Brigid]

Bliz, et al,
I think the definition of femininty is going to be different for each woman despite how the dictionary may define it.  I see it more as an internal feeling rather than an outside appearance.  I think I can relate well to men in a working situation and always identified more with my father--strong, rather than mother--weak.  However, that always created the fear in me of turning out like him and hated when I would hear myself saying things to others that he had said to me.

I don't think of strong, powerful, assertive, etc. as being anti-feminine terms.  I love to dress up, be sexy, always wear make-up, and generally be a girl.  However, I can appreciate the perspective of men and have some male personality traits.  Maybe I just have more testosterone running through my veins.  Being feminine to me is a feeling of being female.  I think it is the nurturing of children, the stronger need to care for others (don't jump on me here, guys.  I know you care, but I think it just doesn't come as naturally.), just a softer personality that for many becomes a need to be cared for and protected by someone stronger.  I don't know if that makes any sense, but that's my story and I'm sticking to it.

Brigid

[Bliz]

To me it is an internal feeling.  Doesn't have a direct conneciton with bearing children or taking care of people.  Ideally, except for the actual birthing, men and women would share the roles of nurturing etc.

To me it is whatever it takes to cherish and nourish my unigueness as a woman. Kind of a "viva la difference" where for many years I tried to hide feminine attributes because I thought it would mean people wouldnt take me seriously.

It was a great revelation to me that I can enjoy, exude my femininity and still be powerful in the boardroom or wherever.

It doesnt mean high heels for me becuae I have never been able to wear them.  It does mean my version of wearing make up, doing my hair, being warm to those I meet in daily life, etc.  It defintely does not mean being submissive or placating men although it seems some really need it in order to get the job done.

In my profession there arent alot of woman and I am tramping around  construction sites sometimes.  Now I get a kick out of the reaction from the crew and try to be both feminine and proficient, efficient.  I play with it a little as I still am trying to find my balance here.

Unfortunatley in my family, woman seems to equal bad, not as good as, weak, etc.  Dont know how they can try to carry this off as both myself and mother are neither.  She does vacillate at times trying to occasoinally  protect, placate the guys.

I think they are fearing the loss in power at times and maybe their male chauvenist activity is a panic reaction.  The whole rebellion of the WASP male.

[bunny]

I grew up in a woman-dominated family. I STILL had no training in being a woman. I wasn't a tomboy; just a vaguely "femme" girl. A friend taught me how to buy makeup. I couldn't cook until I was in my 30s. Somehow, boyfriends have told me that I'm the most "womanly" girlfriend they've ever dated. They thought I was very feminine. So who knows.

My philosophy now is: I "enjoy being a girl" but really dislike wearing nylons and dresses so I don't. I wear makeup and jewelry. I have a lot of anima (female energy) and use it to my advantage. If a man wants to use his positive male energy to his advantage, that is fine with me. I like it.

IMO boys who were privileged and given preference within a family do not turn out strong and brave. They're usually spoiled brats and their parents did them no favor.

bunny

[chutzbagirl - reply]

I have struggled with feminity because my N Mom had to be the center of all male attention.  So when I was cute as a young child she belittled me - as a blossoming teen it got even worse.  I've actually felt shame over my curves and have a sneaking suspicion that the extra 15 lbs. I carry has to do with these issues.  (Food has always been my comfort.)

I can wear fitted shirts now and feel comfortable - but there is still more healing to be done.  I look forward to feeling free with the feminine beauty I have been given.  I'd love to be able to go shopping and fit into the appropriate size for my frame and feel sexy.  

[Anonymous]

Hi again Bliz,
Here's my male perspective, for what its worth.
I personally have zero issues with a woman in a power position versus a man. Usually they both are equally repulsive.  Power corrupts and all that.  
I have been in court with a woman judge and an arbitration with a woman arbitrator. The legal action I'm in right now has a woman judge and a woman under her managing it. They all have been good and fair. It makes no difference to me.
 

Are there times when you can appreciate a strong, yet feminine woman.

My wife is the strongest, most centered, down to earth person I know. She is also very feminine. She is small and trim and very very pretty and soft spoken. Our whole house is full of bunny rabbits and doilies and flowery stuff everywhere you turn. When I make the bed I have to top it off with two dolls and three stuffed rabbits on a rose festooned comforter.   But she tolerates no stupidity from man nor beast if it threatens her family or well being. And I love her more for it. That is one of the things that attracted me in the first place.

Are there cetain characteristics you like or dislike about woman in a power position?

I must confess I have always gotten along with women better than men. I think because I never played the oneupmanship men are always doing amongst themselves. It always seemed pretty insecure to me. I never get that with women. My men friends are all secure non boastful types. I guess I like the charecteristics everyone does, whether a power position or not, sincerity and fairness.
In my experience men who can't handle women in a power position, as you put it, are insecure. Men who can aren't. Simple as that.

I won't attempt to define femininity. I'll probably get myself in trouble.

mudpuppy

[Bliz]

This is all good stuff and I really enjoy hearing it.

The mother jealousy issue.  I forgot that was a real problem when I was younger.  I always thought my mother was beautiful in ways I would never be.  We are both short and petite but she was blonde with an even smaller frame than myself.  She is much more into all things feminine than I am.  I like to dress up now but didnt for years.  But she has the manicure and the whole nine yards.  I guess I have my hands into too many things. The painted nails bug me.

Thanks also for the male perspective.  Nice to get one a little healthier than my own family which seems mostly into domination and one upmanship of each other and woman.  so sad.

My goal is to be comfortable and feel that feminine glow no matter what I am wearing or the circumstances. This doesnt mean giving up my power.  I really have to watch it in relationships because as strong and independent as I am, I must be conditioned on some leve,l that I still have to subjugate my feelings, issues, prioritites to the man.  Not too healthy but I am working on it.

[October]

When I was little my dad told me that my mum was 'highly strung' and my grandma suffered from 'nerves'.  The subtext was that women are insane, and to be sane you have to be male, and follow the male role models, not the female ones.  .

[Bliz]

Your post saddened me becuase I could see alot of my own upbringing.  It took so long to feel good about myself and that it was okay to cry and express emotions and be feminine .  I will never foget the lecture I got when my folks realized  I was on birth control at 19.  Never mind that I got out of high school a virgin, which I am sure was rare, and did have high morals. They basically gave me the cow/milk story and I felt like a slut after that.  

It is so sad the marks words and actions leave on us as children.

I am worried for my nieces tonight and maybe I should put it on another thread but will start here and see how it goes.  I took them to dinner which was somewhat insignificant except for me once again realzaing how quickly they change in a couple of weeks time. It becomes more claer that the older two, 13 and 15 are teenagers and we adults just arent cool.  I long for the day which wasnt that long agao when the older ones too lseemed happy just to tag along.  

WHat really saddened me was they fought over that darn front seat all the way up and back. You may remember their father storming out of the car last week when we picked him up and I was already sitting up front.  This is something my brothers have fought over since I can remember.  It is so insane and now their children are doing it. I am sure this is just a glimpse of the highly competitive and critical way they are all the time. Maybe it is normal but it scared and saddened me.    

The oldest niece hit the 9 year old over it and it just broke my heart.  Are these girls going to be narcissists too?  Even if that is true, there is nothing I can do about it, which makes me even sadder.  I worry they will have all or some of the problems I have had growing up nar.  I know I cant  protect them but I  had to share my sadness.  

In the melee I let it slip that their Dad got mad at me over the same issues. I wish I hadnt said a thing and hope nobody repeats it. Is this all so crazy or what?  

Since reading up on narcissim and this site it is almost like I know too much.  I can see how I walk on eggshells with people including and  especially the nar brother.  I have alwasy tried to avoid that around any of my family and others but I am seeing more clearly how it happens along with the triangulating and other dysfuncitonal patterns. I guess knowledge is power but right now I feel a little overwhelmed and saddened.

[Anonymous]

Bliz,

I know how it feels to worry about nieces (and nephews). It's really frustrating and sad.

One question, were the girls fighting in a really mean way, or were they just being obnoxious? A lot of teenagers and their younger siblings will hit  and bully each other. It's not necessarily abnormal. I can't tell how ugly the situation was, and whether the younger one was being seriously abused or not. You are allowed to say things to your nieces or their parents if you don't like their behavior. I would pick my battles, yes, but sometimes you can speak up.

The fighting over the front seat is truly ludicrous and immature. I'm sorry that your brothers never got past being such brats.


bunny

[Bliz]

Hi Bunny,
I thought it was pretty mean spirited, not the usual bickering.  I am used to that.  In that way they were pretty quiet.  I was a few steps back from the car as they were waitig for me to unlock it.  Next thing I hear is the nine year old screaming pretty loud and the 15 year old obviously extremely mad.  

I have seen her anger before.  SHe is psssively quiet most of the time and then it comes out. She is on strattera (sp), not that it matters, but the side effect was she lost a lot of weight.  She was a pudgy, somewhat sweet little girl and in a few months time she became very thin and into all the usual teenage things. NOt that it is bad, but it concerns me it came from a pill.  

I know her Dad who is all about externals and perfection was constantly concerned about her weight and not too subtle about it.  The 13 year old is wound tighter than a drum, very good in school and in many other activites and I worry about her too.  Her tolerance for mistakes, imperfections in herself and others is so low.  I realize there is nothing  I can do but be there as an aunt.  

Part of it scares me because of the things I want through, alcoholism, eating  and weight issues, the whole growing up Nar thing, losing my power and voice.  I guess like a parent I want to protect them and cant.  I just want them to be happy and well adjusted.  I hope I am a good role model in that way.  That you dont have to be pefect and drive the perfect car, wear the perfect clothes, have the perfect husband or bf or life, to be happy.

[vunil]

What an interesting thread.... It is bringing up a lot of stuff for me...

I seem to have had the same upbringing as many did here, where girls were somehow less valued, or evaluated on a different scale. Sort of-- glad you got the A, graduated from grad school, won the race, but why don't you lose 5 more pounds?  Even now, pregnant, my mother quizzes me about how much weight I've gained (so that she can disapprove of whatever the number is).  It is a primary obsession.

I am successful at work, which like everywhere is male-dominated, but so much of the bs sexism stuff does eat at me.   It's a lot of the same stuff as in my family, so it pushes buttons-- women are too emotional, women aren't scientific/good at math, the important thing about women is how they look.  On the surface, especially when I was younger, you would never have known that this bothered me-- I was cutesy, often sexy, and used all of that to my advantage.  But you pay a price for that kind of capitulation.  Or is it capitulation?  Sometimes it was fun...


But have any of you women ever noticed how much more the appearence of women is commented on at work (compared to men)?  Have you ever had the experience that you're talking about something important at work and the man you are talking to interrupts you to complement your hair or outfit?  It happens all of the time, even in meetings (!)  and it's clear what the message is.

In the end it leaves me pretty conflicted, deep down, about all of this stuff.  To give into femininity whole-hog without in the back of my mind knowing I am "playing a role" is really tough for me because it feels like giving into my family, to the sexist mores at work, and just to that basic idea of feminine meaning not-strong, not worthy of sitting at the big table.

this is really big stuff;  thanks for bringing it up.  There is no question the stereotype (feminine = not to be taken seriously) exists, and it is definitely something N men (and women) use against women.