History: Born or bred?

[Hollow-cost Survivor]

If our life is greatly affected by our history, what happens if the effects of the N in our life is only "his-story"---and we don't make it "our" story? Sure it's in our history and it has a huge effect on who we have become as a result,
but can we choose to move forward with our own positive healing knowledge and story? Can this new awareness help us to re-invent ourselves as we were meant to be? Let's consider the missed-story (mystery) in the his-story. Can we then begin to be free to be you and me?

[Brigid]

Hollow-cost survivor,

If I am following your thread correctly, I would say we must consider his story as part of our story to come to the point of healing.  I have found that comments made recently by 2 cents regarding the development of the n personality and how that plays out in their lives and ultimately in ours, to be very useful toward letting go of some of the anger and beginning to move toward compassion.  I may not ever totally forgive my N H's behavior, lies, abandonment, etc., but I'm starting to see my role in allowing it to go on for as long as it did and see him as the pitiful creature he is.

I don't if this is even in the ballpark of what you were asking, but its what I "heard."

Brigid

[chutzbagirl - reply]

Hi,

Your user name always catches my attention because my Mom's N came to be as a result of her Mom , my Grandmother, being a Holocaust Survivor.  My Grandmother had my Mom shortly after being liberated from Bergen-Belsen, a concentration camp during WW II.  

I believe my Mom became an N because her Mom was suffering from severe Post Traumatic Stress Disorder and was unable to attatch to or effectively parent my Mother.  (My Uncle is an N as well.)  It's a very sad story.  

So, from my experience, the N was bred not born.  I'm sure there are lots of explanations for the various varieties of N out there.  

Take care,

Chutzbagirl

[Portia]

Bred mostly, genetic slightly. I think we all have missed stories. I grieve my missed stories, parallel lives. But I doubt that we are meant to be anything in particular, we decide what we are at any time and it’s our choices that define us. What do you think Hollow-cost?

[Hollow-cost Survivor]

Brigid,
Thank you for simplifying my post with your response. I appreciate and relate to your anger and work towards compassion. I find my emotions to be more sad and disappointed...with a mix of some anger--that's the suffering. Does this mean I am in an earlier stage of potential recovery, or am I feeling bad for myself? I mourn the time lost by ignorance and compliance. It's really tough to move through these discoveries to acheive a sense of self. I long for the day when I can be at ease with....

Chutzbagirl,
I appreciated your post and it made me think. If I read you correctly, and since you are a girl with chutzpa, one might assume you to be a healthier daughter of an affected N mother/affected grandmother. I'm so sorry for the pain of our past generations.  It seems that your understanding of family history (and possibly your mother's understanding, as well) has found the compassion amongst the chaos.  Have you always been like this, and what part did your mother's awareness play in you breaking the pain chain? Maybe it's helpful to know specific causes of the the trauma, intead of just being present in the aftermath.

Portia,
I often enjoy your input. Thank you. I most definitely believe our own choices determine who we are and what path our life takes as a result of those choices. Having said that, I also feel the struggle to determine
how to effectively deal with a heart that is sometimes saddened by my brain and its history. I catch my character flaws when dealing with those extremely difficult people in my life. I know this is an opportunity to thank them for the chance for me to grow in character but if I find it too difficult to accept and don't like myself in this process, it seems my only choice is to walk away---this too seems a failure to me....is this survival or does it serve all?
Hollow-cost Survivor

[Portia]

Hollow-cost about this:

I know this is an opportunity to thank them for the chance for me to grow in character but if I find it too difficult to accept and don't like myself in this process, it seems my only choice is to walk away---this too seems a failure to me....is this survival or does it serve all?

I wouldn’t thank anyone for harmful actions if those actions weren't done specifically to help me. E.g a therapist might 'hurt' me to shock me into some discovery - but the intention there is helpful, not harmful. If the intention wasn't to help, then no thanks required.

Thanking an abuser is worthless, unless the abuser is genuinely apologising and asking for understanding and forgiveness. If not, the thanking falls on stony ground, it is wasted. Icky, false.

Walking away can be survival. Walking away can feel like failure and it can feel like success. That’s the choice – your attitude towards the walking away.

If you don’t accept the reason for walking away, then it could be failure.

If you do see the reason, are able to accept the reality of a situation, then it could be success. But that doesn’t make success less painful and difficult to deal with.  

Why does the walking away seem like failure?

[chutzbagirl - reply]

Hi Hollow-Cost,

I've become more aware of the reality of my family's illness and its origins over the course of the past nine years.  I always knew something was wrong but unconsciously blamed myself for my Mother's unhappiness and thought it was my job to be the "perfect" overacheiver to help make my Grandmother happy.  I think my "self" was submerged before I was verbal.

I have had to completely detatch from my N Mom.  I always told myself that if her illness ever directly affected my kids she was out.  Well, a year ago January she made it clear that I needed to turn away.  I know, although it doesn't always feel like it, that I'm making the right decision for myself and my family.  When I become afraid that I'm too unloving or unforgiving my sponsor, husband, friends, and counselor remind me that she would chew me up and spit me out.  I have forgiven my Mom.  I pray for her and want the best for her.  However, protecting my sanity and getting healthy is the best gift I can give to my children.  (Some days, when I'm dealing with anger I do write her nasty letters I'll never send and call her horrible names.   )

I still love my Mom and grieve her illness.  I believe she lives in an emotional hell.  My Grandmother died about 5 years ago.  Fortunately, she was able to attatch to me when I was born and became my "Mom". Even though she was still frozen in grief, at least I felt loved by her.  Good thing for me or I would be sick past hope as well.

I have always felt compelled to seek truth and seek God.  I believe this has saved me.  I will go for truth at any cost because I have lived the insanity of my Mom's N lies.    

I hope this gives you a better understanding of where I come from.  

My family and I are off for a little road trip.  I'll check in when we get back.  

Best Wishes,

Chutzbagirl

p.s. I know I've misspelled Chutzba.  I did it on purpose because I like to break rules now and then - my Mom always corrected my spelling.

[Anonymous]

Hi portia,

Thanking an abuser is worthless, unless the abuser is genuinely apologising and asking for understanding and forgiveness. If not, the thanking falls on stony ground, it is wasted. Icky, false

.

You don't have to thank them for their intention, only for the result. If you can stand another biblical reference; one of the proverbs says, If your enemy thirsts give him a drink of water, in doing so you pour hot coals on his head. Thanking a difficult person for the growth they cause is not so much for them as it is for ourselves. To me its a recognition what they meant for evil has been used for good. And its a way to shame them; whether they are capable of shame is another question.

This does not apply to someone in a situation where only harm is being done, of course. When someone is vulnerable and defenseless and only pain and damage come from the abuse it is not a time for thankfulness. But at some point when we have recovered and when we can appreciate 'what doesn't kill me makes me stronger' as that old knothead Nietsche(sp?) said, I think thankfulness can be a very good response to evil. Its kind of like spitting in its face and defanging it at the same time.
Thats the way I look at it anyway.

mudpup

[Portia]

Hi Mudpup, I don’t mind biblical references, no worries, I’m not a – er- Bible-basher? Not in the sense that it irks me, it doesn’t. It’s a book. It’s the interpretations and actions that are based on belief only, and not based upon independent thinking. ‘Blind faith’ irks me I guess because God/the Gods/fate/chance/nature/take-your-pick gave us brains to think with and it seems daft not to use them, not just daft, perverse. Anyway, thanks for talking to me, hope we can talk more now I’ve said that? But I don’t believe in ‘evil’. I think people do evil acts but I don’t think people are inherently evil, I don’t believe any child is born evil and to believe that I think is very harmful. If we view people as evil, that seems like a label which is absolute - and which prevents us being interested in learning more. If we don’t learn about what makes people do evil things, how can we progress.

About thanking and shaming: I was relating only to Hollow-cost’s words.

I know this is an opportunity to thank them for the chance for me to grow in character but if I find it too difficult to accept and don't like myself in this process,

If Hollow-cost for some reason feels it is ‘correct’ to thank his/her abuser(s) but he/she doesn’t want to thank them, can’t accept it, well I say don’t do it. I get the feeling Hollow-cost means genuinely thanking them and I would advise against that if he/she doesn’t want to. If it feels bad to you, don’t do it. Don’t do anything because you think you ‘should’, do it because you want to.

About shaming people with NPD: their psyches are drenched in shame. What appears as shamelessness is the opposite. If you shame someone with NPD, you’ll get narcissistic rage in response and a barrage of defences which are designed to shore up their incredibly weak and shame-sensitive egos. Yuk.

[Anonymous]

Hi Portia,
Blind faith is indeed blind. God says to Isaiah "come let us reason together." So He expects us to use our brain as well.
I don't think any child is born more inherently evil than another. But I do believe we all are born with the capacity for evil AND for good. And I think we ALL dip into some of each during our lives.

I get the feeling Hollow-cost means genuinely thanking them and I would advise against that if he/she doesn’t want to.

I agree. I didn't mean she should walk up and say "Thank you for sticking your thumb in my eye, could you please do it again?" More like "Thank you so much for being such an immortal horse's ass that I have learned to avoid people like you for ever."
NPD and shame. I absolutely agree with you. However some people apparently believe Ns are so screwed up they don't know they're screwed up. I am not one of those people. I have seen their self knowledge.

Anyway, thanks for talking to me, hope we can talk more now I’ve said that?

Portia, of course we can talk. I love your point of view and your posts. It takes a pretty small person to stop talking the first time someone says they disagree. I'll just keep talking until you do agree. Just kidding.

mudpup

[Portia]

Thanks mudpup.

I have seen their self knowledge.

I know these people are mean and cruel and dangerous, but we can afford to be compassionate about their illness/disorder – preferably from a vast distance and only when we’re healthy and strong enough (this is theoretical for me.)

When you’re up close, protect you and yours, I want the healthy to survive because that’s our only hope! When we have a safe distance, then we can pity?

I'll just keep talking until you do agree.

I like it, thanks for the smile on my face  

[Hollow-cost Survivor]

I catch my character flaws when dealing with those extremely difficult people in my life. I know this is an opportunity to thank them for the chance for me to grow in character but if I find it too difficult to accept and don't like myself in this process,
Hollow-cost Survivor

Mudpup and Portia:
I guess I was not clear in my post and I'd like to add to your comments about "thanks to abusers". The thankfulness, although genuine, is not directly TO them, but rather, FROM them to me. They have given me an opportunity to grow and see something I might otherwise not have seen. The difficult experiences in our lives are always opportunities to grow, if we choose to see the lessons for ourselves.

What I find difficult to accept and don't like about myself is NOT about thanking these people, but rather, the character flaws I notice in myself when dealing with these difficult people. I often find myself acting and re-acting in ways less than dignified, with upset and fear and hope for strength. Usually, I become very fragile and lose pieces of myself again...until I search for myself again. I get real tired of doing this and I need to find my strength solely by depending on my trust and faith in myself and my own character and abilities. It is very important to me to maintain the character traits that I find respectful and honorable. This is the way in which I cannot afford to disappoint myself. If I cannot maintain my composure in a dignified manner, regardless of their behavior or comments, this is when I must walk away. My failure, it would seem to me, is my lack of ability to maintain this respectable composure, therfore finding my only other option to be to walk away. Maybe I'll learn more about compure and discipline"when I grow up"...I'm only a teenager at 51.

Thanks so much for your thoughts,
Hollow-cost Survivor

[Anonymous]

Hi Hollow,
I think we're all on the same page. I wasn't actually advocating you tell all the horse's asses they are horse's asses. More of a metaphorical thing as you say. I believe even the biblical reference I made was mostly metaphorical. It simply means, don't hate your enemies, I believe.

As for keeping our composure. I think I pointed out in another thread Ns are professionals on their turf, we're just amateurs. Walking away gets us off of their field of play and back onto our home field. Its pretty tough to ever play them on their home ground and not lose some of yourself.

mudpup

[Chutzbagirl - reply]

Hi,

For what it's worth, I think the expectation to always behave appropriately when dealing with an N is unrealistic.  Unfortunately, the person I tend to act the most innapropriately with is myself.  I have expected myself to take the lies, lack of love, unbelievable selfishness, bizarre behavior, etc...and give love in return.  

One time, while watching the "Passion of Christ" I got down on myself for having to turn away from my family while Christ was able to love his enemies to the end.  Then I got a very clear message - of course I can't love my enemies "perfectly", I'm not God.  I'm just a broken little person that needs a lot of healing.  I certainly can not become whole while allowing N's the freedom to continually tear me down.  That's what they do - tear people down while building themselves up.  (Although they are not really building themselves up in a healthy way.)

Chutzbagirl

[longtire]

Besides, you are responsible for taking care of Chutzbagirl, no one else!  If being around N's is bad for her then you can't let her do that.