Releasing Wounded and Wounding Friends & Loved Ones

[mudpuppy]

Stormy,

The only response I could think of was to work your tookus off for about five years until you are above them on the ladder, then fire them all.
Sound like a plan?

mud

[Anonymous]

Hi again,

Just read your lip curling, dog snarling BPD solution on the other page, Stormy.

Is this not applicable with your current crop of N-innys?
Perhaps a variation on the theme?


mud

[Stormchild Guesting]

Hey mud, I wish it were.

But no, not really. Flamer Girl appeared to be a total phosphorescent nutbar and she had pulled the same abusive hissy fit stuff on just about everyone, but, of course, since I work in a very secret-keeping and hostile-ish environment, nobody talked about it. At least, not to me. I had to go around and ask, one person at a time. Once I knew she'd alienated everyone, I knew that I probably could try the growl trick without much in the way of backlash.

(I used something similar in grad school to keep potential threats away from me when I needed to walk home late at night... growl, talk to yourself, have arguments with the Invisible Man and lose them. Make potential troublemakers think you are nuttier than they are. Worked.)

Don't think I could snarl at my immediate supervisor when he tells me he never looks at my work and then presumes to rate me on it, alas. Not that I wouldn't enjoy it; and lordy, he deserves it. But I think it'd have something other than the desired effect, dagnabbit, rassafrassa rackafracka.

[Anonymous]

Hello everyone:

Sorry Stormy, re your friends/their response to your x, I do agree that you don't need friends like that in your life, as I said before.

What would have helped for me, would have been had my friend said: "Sorry you've been hurt.  It wasn't nice of _____ to do ______.  That was bad behaviour.  I care about you.  I support you and will stay with you in your pain.  I also care about _____, who is my friend too.  I will make sure _____ knows I think the behaviour was wrong.  We'll see if ______intends to make amends.   If there is hope for change, then I won't give up.  I will support _____in facing up to the behaviour, taking responsibility for it, and hopefully taking steps to prevent it from happening again, and in making amends".

For me.......that would have been good.  I could live with it.  But:  "How's the weather" doesn't swing it for me, when I'm suffering because of something someone else has done to me.

Maybe, Stormy, if your friends had said:  "We are sorry that you are hurt and for your pain.  We know X hurt you and behaves horribly.  We are here for you and will support you.  But we are also X's friend.  We will make it clear to him that his behaviour is unacceptable.  If he intends to do something about it.....we will support him in that because we do care for him".

Maybe, had they said that, you too might be able to live with it.  But they didn't.  They invited him to their home and avoided you.   They continued to deny his behaviour and your suffering.  That's not kind at all.

The practical example I gave my kids was that if A hits B, and both are your friend, then you can go to B and say:  "I'm sorry A hit you.  That was wrong and mean.  It hurt you.  I'm your friend.  I'll stay here until you feel better."  and they can go to B, later and say:  "B, I'm your friend.  Why did you hit A?  That hurt A.  It was wrong and mean.  I will stay with you and help you figure out what to do about it."

My hope was that my children learned a few things.

1.  That their feelings count.   They care about both people.  They are allowed to do that.  Their feelings are valid and important.
2.  Not to trust gossip (because I've always had this....problem....with gossip....can't stand it).  To go and be honest and truthful and wait for the other person to tell their side.  Gossip can be very distorted.
3.  Sometimes....people do things they regret.  Sometimes they will have the courage to do better with the support of a friend.

I do not believe people's bad behaviour is exusable.  For me, if I care about both people, I want to support both.  I don't end relationships simply because my friend behaves badly.  I end them, if my friend refuses to fess up, be accountable, show an attempt to correct the behaviour and the harm caused.   I don't think really bad behaviour should ever get a free pass.   I don't refuse to support my wronged friend.  That would be insane.  I support my wronged friend first.  But my friend who behaved wrong, might be the friend that needs my support the most.  And I feely give it, if there is hope for change and correction.  

I have a friend who's son murdered someone my friend cared about.

If we go by the.... end relationships with those who hurt others practice, my friend would be expected to end her relationship with her own son.
There are some grey areas when it comes to some absolutes, imo.

Sorry for the long shpeel.  I'm not always the best at the condensed version.    

GFN

[mudpuppy]

GFN,

I have a friend who's son murdered someone my friend cared about.

Not to turn this into a forgiveness thread, but there is an elderly pastor in our community who has spoken at our church a few times. He told us his amazing story of forgiveness.

He had a lovely daughter who had an unlovely boyfriend. This unlovely man became very jealous at one point and murdered the pastor's lovely daughter.
The pastor visited the bum in jail after his conviction and actually forgave him, in tears of course.
But he didn't stop there. He continued to visit the bum until he felt compelled to testify on his behalf for an early release.
He then took the man home to live with him and try and redeem him.
He remembers lying in bed, terrified the guy would get a knife in the middle of the night and do the same thing to him he did to his daughter.
But the guy was redeemed. He's never been in trouble again. Has gone on to lead a decent life. But that wasn't the point for the father. He forgave him for his own peace of spirit not the murderers.
I'm not saying try this at home. If the guy who murdered my daughter was sleeping in my house I'd say there was a much better chance of me stabbing him in the middle of the night than vice versa. I don't know how he forgave him. Well actually I know where he got the strength, but I don't think I could do it.
Your friend's son just reminded me of what I think is a pretty amazing story, whether you think he was right or wrong.

And now back to our regular programming.

mudpup

[Stormchild Guesting]

That's pretty awesome, mud. I don't know if I could manage it.

I did disarm my sibling, years ago, in the middle of the night, completely out of its mind on some chemical, after it had slashed the palm of one of my parents, remember. Then I called the police and had my sibling taken away.

I was then and am now damn near certain that I prevented at least a double, and maybe a triple murder that night. My parents and myself.

Would I have forgiven my sibling for killing them if that had happened and I had escaped the same fate? I honestly can't say. I do know, however, that if my sibling had killed me that night, it wouldn't have caused my parents a moment's discomfort, except the kind my mother used to exploit, in order to get sympathy from onlookers.

That realization affects the point of view a little.

I suspect I'd be more like Ted Kaczynski's brother, who figured out that Theodore was the Unabomber and then - turned him in.

[Stormchild Guesting Again]

GFN, yes.

If my friends had had the decency to believe me and validate my pain - and - to confront the mutual acquaintances who abused me in their presence,

I'd never even have needed to start this thread.

thanks,

Storm

[Anonymous]

Stormy:

I'm sorry your friends are so deep in denial and so cowardly.  I think that's what it boils down to.  ((((Stormy))))

Mud:  That is truly an incredible story.  That pastor must be close to saint hood.  His example does indicate that we never really know what we'll do until we actually face something.  That goes double for friends.

The friends I thought would do heroics on my behalf, didn't... and those I never suspected had it in them, came through like superman/woman.  Go figger??
 
GFN

[Brigid]

Stormy,

Look ma no asterisks

Good for you     Did you find a support group to help you deal with this

Stormy, Muddy, GFN, Bunny and anyone else who may have weighed in on this,

I think we have used such a broad spectrum of examples of transgressions that it would be hard to lump them all together.  One friend hitting another among children is one thing, a murderer killing a daughter is a whole other thing and then everything in between.

I think it is a good lesson for children to learn to take responsibility for bad behavior and also that of forgiveness.  I look at children as in the process of building their character and they can be forgiven for making bad choices as long as they admit them and take some level of responsibility.

I think that when adults make choices to behave in hurtful, harmful ways, they are demonstrating a strong lack of character.  They may like my H, admit that their behavior is unacceptable to most people, but if there is no ceasing of the behavior, no taking of responsibility for the harm it caused, and feeling entitled to that behavior for their own happiness, there is obviously a total lack of character and I would need to end a friendship with someone who did this.  The fact that my former friends did not see this, IMO shows their lack of character.

I hold people to standards of behavior and treatment towards me, to the same standard I hold myself.  I try to remain sensitive to someone having bad times, bad days, complications within their own lives, etc., which may make it difficult for them to respond to my needs.  But eventually there needs to be give and take, and when they only take and do not ever give, I give up.  It is too hard to always be supportive and never be supported.

I don't think we necessarily disagree on this topic, but I just think we are talking about very different degrees of negative behaviors.

Brigid

[Portia]

Dearest Storm. Can I slip in a quick thank you to GFN, Mud, Longtire, Bunny? I've been absent but wanted to acknowledge them for support current and past and.... Thank you Storm for that space. Now for you, my heart hurts.

I know you've seen it, but this para was you talking almost about your parents, to me.

What floors me is that they are absolutely incapable - as a couple - of seeing the split between their own experience and perception of abuse when it happens to them, and their expectation of acceptance and support, and their utter, total refusal to believe that abuse ever happens to me at the hands of a mutual acquaintance, or to accept and support me in any way when it does.

We seek out the same abusive relationships, wherever. Like a treadmill.

I almost laughed:  

I wonder how much charity is really disguised (and not very well, at that) condescension?

 better than/worse than/anything 'more than' or it's only me this happens to (note any lack of personal agency) etc and I start to wonder. I didn't laugh. I sighed. Big sighs.

that if my sibling had killed me that night, it wouldn't have caused my parents a moment's discomfort, except the kind my mother used to exploit, in order to get sympathy from onlookers.

That realization affects the point of view a little.

Angry angry bitterness and the clear, shining truth. What do you, Storm, do with it, if you feel it too? I don't know what to do with mine. I don't want to be bitter, even the word, bitter, sounds sharp and hurtful. But how can I just accept it? That she does not care whether I live or die? That she would take some kind of enjoyment from my death?

I must write my Will I do have that little control of my life, er,   actually my 'stuff'. I know it hurts (((Storm))). I'm sorry. P

[Anonymous]

Hi Portia:

But how can I just accept it? That she does not care whether I live or die? That she would take some kind of enjoyment from my death?

As if I know the answer?  But I'll try....suggest and you can think about it, ok?

What if.....you decide it doesn't matter?  Her enjoyment doesn't matter.  Her taking (trying to take) doesn't matter.  Her not caring doesn't matter.
None of her stuff matters.

What if you somehow let go of all that you expected of her and form new non-expectations?   Sort of....expect nothing and you won't be disappointed?

I know this isn't usual but it might be a way to let go??  I don't know.  It will take effort and definately a rearranging of thoughts.  But it might be worth the trouble??

((((Portia))))

GFN

[Stormchild Guesting]

that if my sibling had killed me that night, it wouldn't have caused my parents a moment's discomfort, except the kind my mother used to exploit, in order to get sympathy from onlookers.

That realization affects the point of view a little.

Angry angry bitterness and the clear, shining truth. What do you, Storm, do with it, if you feel it too? I don't know what to do with mine. I don't want to be bitter, even the word, bitter, sounds sharp and hurtful. But how can I just accept it? That she does not care whether I live or die? That she would take some kind of enjoyment from my death?

Dear P:

Mostly, what I do with it is - keep telling the truth about it, and try to see the truth around me, even when painful - fight lies and abuse and denial. Those are the things that damaged the people who damaged me. Those are the things to fight.

It's a derned small army, though.      

[Anonymous]

fight lies and abuse and denial. Those are the things that damaged the people who damaged me. Those are the things to fight.

OH Stormy how true!!  And the army may be small but they are such courageous buggers!!!

GFN

[Stormchild Guesting]

((((((((((GFN))))))))))

[Anonymous]

Hello All:

I had a similar circumstance crop up at my part time job yesterday.  

Preface:

I work part time at a gym.  My autistic son does some volunteering there, you know helping wash towels, folding etc.  Well I went to some trouble to get some other disabled people to work on other shifts to help volunteer as well.  Everyone wins.  The people who work the front desk do not have to do this task, and these folks who otherwise would have nothing to do, get something productive to do.

Well the guy who is over the Membership Desk goes and hires a "friend".  He is working a shift after I do.  Well we had a meeting last week and this oaf begins to complain about the "volunteers" being slow.  What the real problem is, is he is a small time N with big ambitions.  He is to GOOD to wash towels and fold.  So he complains because the has to do this on his shift.  So he complains about our special folks being to slow.  He does this complaining with other people who have children who are disabled at this meeting.  My son is also present.  

Well needless to say, the momma claws came out big time.  I told him in this meeting:

1.  What time is your shift?  ( He always comes in late) If  you would
     come in on time maybe you would not have so much back log in the
    laundry to do.

2.  These folks who are volunteers are overseen by me and I assure you
    that their job is always done.

The next day I told my immediate supervisor that this person was

1.  Not be be around me
2.  That I really did not care who he was friends with, I could care less
3.  Washing towels and folding was part of his job and it was to bad
    he felt he was to good for that
4.  He was not to tell me what to do he was not my immediate supervisor

My immediate supervisor told me she also felt he was getting "to big for his britches".  She related to me that she told the Memebership Director of my complaint.

I am at the age that I really don't care anymore.  If you are going to act like an " n....sshole around me, you will pay.  

There is another woman who works the desk with me and is very well connected and she is also going to see the Director of the Gym and tell him that she cannot belong to an organization that condones this kind of behaviour.  This might matter inasmuch she belongs to numerous boards, also has a disabled son that helps me, and was hired specficially to help with the fund raising this Fall because she knows so many people.  This little N is going to pay.  

The moral of this story.  If you have people around you that are acting inappropriately at your expense, your children's expense, they have to be called on it.  If they do not contribute to your well being, if they are a millstone around your neck because of their Nnss, what do you care WHAT they think?   I have come to realize that their "specialness"  is not a requirement for me  to feel good about myself.  

Sorry for the rant folks, but this budding N is going to get nipped.

Patz