Parenthood?

[Rojo]

Hi, folks

I was just re-reading CC's post a while back about starting a family.  I must have read that post and all the follow up posts about 5 or 6 times now...it's just such a beautiful dialogue.

Whenever I read/hear about someone bringing a little one into the world, it always brings me happy emotions and a big grin.  However, whenever I think about doing the same thing myself, I become filled with dread and feel the urge to run for my life.  Panic!  Panic!  

I know this is all horribly wrapped up in an equally horrible childhood ruined by my Nparents.  Even though I've moved leaps and bounds away from all that insanity, including across the world, this is the one portion of my life that I'm just completely stuck on.

Here into my 30th year in a wonderful 10 year marriage, I'm beginning to feel as though time is starting to run out for me with regard to motherhood.  Hubby is 40 so he's understandibly in a now or never frame of mind - either way, he says he will be happy.  Sooooo, I guess it's all up to me to decide.  Panic!  Panic!    LOL!

I've spent quite a bit of time thinking about the roots of the fear/panic response to the concept of motherhood.  I guess the best way I can articulate it is that I'm only just beginning to feel free.  I'm only just now beginning to have the childhood that was obliterated by my parents and I think I'm plain and simply terrified of loosing what I've worked so hard to achieve....peace, quiet and happiness on my terms.  The latter on it's own is rational and understandable.  However, juxtapose it with the problem of limited time as described above....then I reach a seemingly no win situation.  I can't imagine having a child for another 10 years because there's just so much I still want to do but cannot do with a child in tow.  However, waiting that long to have a baby makes for an unwanted repetition of one of my more painful childhood experiences in having a grandfather instead of a father for our child due to the enormous age gap and a risky situation in me having a first child at around 40.

Methinks the baby boat has been forever missed.  I'm a rockstar at heart but I just aint Madonna.  

Any thoughts?

PS.  I think you're all wonderful.

[October]

Hiya Rojo

I am now 43, and my daughter is 10.  I remember when I turned 30 being in a similar position to yours, and wondering whether it was the right time for me or not, and whether to go ahead or not.  As you will realise, it took me a year or so to finally decide, and then went ahead.  In some ways my daughter was and is the best part of my life, and I would never be without her.  In other ways her arrival was a catalyst to the end of my marriage, as I finally realised just how selfish and self obsessed my husband was, and just how bad his drinking really was.  Fortunately that does not happen to everyone.

What I would say is that I was undecided for a long time; I had a good career and a good home, and I was never sure it was the right time, and then something changed within me, and all of a sudden it seemed as if there were prams and babies everywhere I looked.  This was a real change, and it was very clear that it was time for me to start thinking seriously about a family.

I would say that if you are unsure, give yourself some more time.  There can be nothing worse than bringing a child into this world and not being sure that you really truly want that child.  You may well find that things change for you as they did for me, and that your indecision becomes an equally strong decision to go ahead.

Either way, you can't make a wrong decision, as long as you do what is right for you.  That way, if and when your little one comes along, that will be right for you and for the child as well.

[rosencrantz]

Hi Rojo - I'm 50 with a ten year old son.  

I was surprised to discover that my body clamoured for a baby from when I was 30.  I met my partner when I was 35 and we had a baby when I was 40.  The time was finally right from every perspective - my body was as happy as larry and there were no complications of any kind.

From what you say, the last thing you should do right now is have a baby.  If a baby came along you would resent its effect on what you have achieved.

Maybe you will lead a very happy life without having a child.  That's OK.  If you don't feel driven to have a child, don't have one!!  They change your life totally and irrevocably.  I just absolutely needed to have one!!  After that, my body stopped clamouring for babies and was content to drift off into the menopause.

The statistics on older mothers are misleading - I looked into it very carefully when I was considering what tests to have.  Be proactive in finding out about the latest research when the time comes, and you'll be OK.

We're all living longer and mothers are having babies later all the time.  It's true that you may have less energy (so keep fit if you want to plan on the possibility of having a baby later in life) but there are always upsides.  My husband may 'feel' that he is old enough to be a grandfather but he can now make choices about how he divides his time which he never could do when he was fighting up the corporate ladder.  And also we have fewer financial worries.

And it certainly keeps you young!  I may feel exhausted but I don't feel 50 and my obligations to my son save me from having to put myself into the line of fire of an elderly Nparent.

There's very little, however, that's romantic or sweet about having babies - that might be what it looks like from the outside but from the inside it's all blood, sweat, tears and exhaustion.  And every new mother says "Why didn't anyone ever tell me?"  Well, probably they did -but you weren't listening!!!  

So do what your INSTINCT tells you is right.  Go with the flow!  Enjoy your wonderful marriage and your peaceful life.  You don't owe anybody anything.  And you just never know what ten years might bring.    
R

[Rojo]

Hi, October and Rosencrantz

Thank you sooooo much for your thoughts, which were most validating.  October, you made me laugh when you mentioned suddenly seeing prams and babies everywhere after turning 30.  That is totally what's been going on with me.  I went to a big craft show shindig earlier in the year and boy oh boy, everywhere I looked there were pregnant women and babies en masse.  For me, it was like one of those slow motion scenes in a movie where speech is slowed to a slur, everything looks larger than life and some poor sod just can't seem to run away fast enough.  Kinda like Night of the Living dead but this time they're all pregnant, armed with diapers and are closing in on a new recruit.  (dramatizing of course but you get the idea   ).

The last thing I ever want to have is a situation where I resent my baby because of my decision to have a child when I'm not ready.  And, I'm definitely not ready.  I guess it boils down to the old saying, "When in doubt, leave it out."  R, when you mentioned the resentment aspect, it really touched a note with me and brought back a lot of memories.  Nmom held a thinly veiled resentment towards my birth.  I was a "late lamb" who ruined her modeling career, which was supposedly "really beginning to take off" before I came along.  Then, I refused to breastfeed from birth and was consequently labeled as the "difficult" (as in defective) one.  She somehow managed to suffer through all the sacrifices I brought though and loves me anyway...  Barf!

It was also very comforting to see that you folks have had children later on and have done so well, in spite of the resulting challenges.  Very inspiring.  You know, after reading your posts, I had a look at myself in the mirror, literally, and dang it!  I look and feel a hell of a lot younger than 30 and hubby seems half his age.  We can wait.  I guess I've been letting myself get bogged down by the old societal idea of time and so forth.  You're right, things are changing, referencing living longer and having children later.  Hubby and I need to further discuss his now or never approach to the topic.  While I totally understand his feelings, they create too much pressure for me right now and there are actually a lot of benefits for him in waiting a little longer (eg. he has more he wants to do career wise).  I, on the other hand need to better internally process the relationship I had with my grandfatherish dad.  Thinking more clinically, it was his behavior, not his age that was the problem.

Also, I think I've been subconsciously hearing Nmom's voice, which has, up until about 2 years ago pestered me relentlessly over the years about having children.  I quote "You owe it to me to have children!".  (Who let the nuts out?!!!)  Even though I know she's not well, and everything she says has an N motivation, methinks I still allow her enough power to creep into the old subconscious.  Note to self:  arm subconscious with N neutralizing kryptonite bazooka.

Thanks you guys.  Really.  With all these powerful emotions going on, it's so easy to get into a situation where one can't see the forest for the trees.  This board is a real blessing.  

Rojo

[Anonymous]

Hiya Rojo, glad you have found a way through this one for now.  As I was reading your message, I thought about another way to make up your mind about something.  Toss a coin.  This isn't as flippant as it sounds; you toss a coin, and say heads I do, tails I don't, and then you find out what happens to the coin.  Then that 'tells' you what to do, and at that point you tune into your feelings and find out whether you are relieved or disappointed.  Then you follow your feelings, rather than the coin.  

C

[October]

Then you follow your feelings, rather than the coin.  

C

Sorry, that was me, October.  And I hope it didn't sound as if I was being flippant about this issue, it is a very important one to get right.

(((((Rojo)))))

[Anonymous]

Hi Rojo,

Of course no one can decide about you having a baby except you. I will say that if you are concerned about giving up peace and quiet and being able to do whatever you want to do, you are correct, you will have to give up those things. Is raising a baby one of the hardest things to do that there is? Yes. My memories of those early years were that they were brutal, very difficult, and put a strain on our marriage. They were also the some of the most special and rewarding and meaningful times of my life that I will never forget. It is not something that can be explained very well with words and will rock your world in ways that you can’t even imagine. My whole life changed the day my first daughter was born. There is nothing like it.

[Simon46]

That last one was me.

[CC]

Hi Rojo!

I am glad you are giving this so much contemplation as it is SUCH a big decision.  As I mentioned before, it took me three years to "talk" myself into even going off the pill, while my poor best friend has tried every fertility trick in the book for the last five years.  

I can certainly understand your apprehension with your Nmom basically indicating you "owed" her children.  Interesting how opposite our Nmothers are, though similarly controlling.  Mine was the opposite, dislikes most children and was glad to hear me say several times in the past how I didn't know if I would ever have children.  I now see how her aversion to children was probably inherited by me..until I began to examine WHY I had an aversion.

Though I am now 9 weeks preggo I still question "am I doing the right thing?"  I still have that fear, almost a sense of impending doom... that I can never go back.  Then I have other moments, where I feel confirmed, when I feel like everythings going to be okay.. and its not going to be "bad" as my mother made it out to be, and how I had preconcieved it for so many years past.  I even think on some level.. I may be able to give, receive, experience joy and love like I never did as a child.

When you mentioned how you had fought so hard and long to have peace in your life.. THIS IS EXACTLY WHY I put off having children so long!!!  I have been happy in my life with my husband, and it took soooo long to get there, and many years of therapy to get to the point I am with my family - which is not necessarily a happy situation, but it is based on my boundaries.  The fear is of losing that happiness and peacefullness, as you mentioned, is why we hesitate.  Will the presence of the child change all this???  And, I realized after months of contemplation that I felt secure enough in my marriage that we could handle it, I could handle it, and it might actually bring us to another level.

I discussed my anxieties with my husband several times over this period too.  He reassured me, and was patient.  But he also revealed to me that on some level he was saddened that I had not expressed wanting to have children even though he had never told me that in the 9 years we were together! He told me he never wanted to pressure me and that the decision had to be because I wanted it.

It could be coincidence, but I think that while we have always had a good relationship, we have been getting along better than ever since I got pregnant. there seems to be less tension between us. I am wondering if on some level he may have been resentful before.

I wish you peace in your decision making.  By the way, you have plenty of time.  I am 36, will be 37 when I give birth.  You will know in time.  There is no pressure.

Thanks for the post!

[Acappella]

Congradulations Rojo on your resolve and for feeling it all out.  30? Yeah you've got time - many years in fact.

And CC 9 weeks already, wow. That is so wonderful.  Hang in there.  Woman have been told that the whole child bearing thing is supposed to be sweet and loveable and all good.  There is a lovely article in Oprah's December issue written by a mom of twins who openly writes about the process of bonding. It was not instant nor accompanied by harps etc. as I grew up imagining unconsciously it should be.  

Ultimately if a woman gives birth and decides she doesn't want the child I believe she should feel no shame in giving up the child.  NONE.  What an honorable and painful thing really to do.   Carrying a child should be considered civil service in a way as important if not more so than serving in the darned army. Ok I'm really getting all sudsy on my soap box not.  Woah!

I love the coin toss October as I see it as not at all flippant (good pun there though - flipping a coin...did you intend that?). I see it as a really good way to feel out feeling forced by the perceived decision making forces around us.  As soon as a decision is made for us we sometimes only then get the distinction between the "it" and us.  

Just think it wasn't long ago us humans just popped out children cause we could.  I feel bad for my mom in some ways and women who just got the pill option and yet were subjected to shame for using it.  At one time children were a major source of labor for the family farm.  Ahhhh, evolution!  (that is my positive spin on it anyway)  I personally am quite thrilled to see such care going into the process while you do have time. And CC's pondering too.  It gives me hope for future generations that there are people finally take such consideration.

Rojo, have you considered volunteering and have you been up close and personal with children...baby sitting relatives children, working at a school?  I know that isn't the same as having a birth experience etc. and I still imagine it could help clarify if and when you consider the option.

[Nic]

Hi all,
I reflected about posting or not posting on this topic.  And obviously have decided to post in an attempt to expose feelings for which I've come to realize I feel shame.
I've never wanted children and have married a wonderful woman who is of the same opinion/choice as me..I suppose that's a good thing.  At first we did become pregnant but my wife lost the baby.  i remember feeling elated when she told me she was pregnant.  After she lost the baby neither of us felt very badly about it mainly because we hadn't really planned on having a child, it wasn't a goal.  I was however happy in a macho kinda way that I could..you know ,do it!  Neither had we planned on not ever having a child ever because we did not use any form of birth control odd as that may seem in the late 20th century.
My wife and I like other people's children..but somehow and because of all kinds of things, we both did not envisage becoming parents.  It just was not a part of our makeup.  It bothers me when other people see how good we both are with kids.  "Oh Nic, do you have children?"  "no.." I would answer, followed by " You'd make a great father!!!!" said with much emphasis.  My wife has always been fair with everyone especially children and yet no kids in the picture, although in her first marriage she did raise two wonderful kids and taught them well.
Yes it's an age thing but it's more also.  Having had N parents who thought they were the best at everything and who robbed me of my own childhood, i've never really put the finger on a possible hidden reason why i've never wanted any of my own..on purpose that is.
My N brother and N SIL have two children who can do no wrong, my parents constantly reminded my brother and I growing up how horrible we were as well as anyone who would listen..all of that has so completely turned me off the parenting thing.
I've seen wonderful parents, i've seen happy kids and i've seen friends adopt and have their first child with such enthusiasm..and yet all the hubbub surrounding the event just makes me queezzie..always has.
I can remember other children, friends growing up going on trips with their parents, going through crises that were handled so much more sanely than in my own family.  I remember thinking, " your family is a piece of cake , you should try mine for a while.."  I remember being jealous of the great relationships most of my friends had at home.
I suppose being put down, laughed at, being humiliated in public serially and in an uninterrupted way during most of my life didn't help.  My parents together devalued me so much that maybe I just couldn't picture myself ever growing up ENOUGH to have the same thing they did..even a child.
I've also seen people, my own brother having kids for the sole purpose of agrandizing himself and capitalizing on having procreated and that makes me sick.  My parents blamed my brother and I for everything that went wrong in their lives..we were at weekend camp and boarding school as soon as we were potty trained.  It just wasn't my parents' thing either..but successful people need to look successful in everything don't they?  My brother for instance is a terrible father, ( yes! in my opinion..) I see him mirroring my parents in almost everything he does..I guess you either beat 'em or join 'em.  You can have kids out of selfishness ( narcissism) just as you can avoid having them for the same reasons.
I have taken a good long hard look at myself and have determined that i've chosen not to have children because I was afraid to have them.  Although there is a very good chance I would have been a good father, i'm too scared to risk it.  Is that selfish?
I simply could not handle it, after all that's been done to me by the two Ns who adopted me, i simply could not take it if I unconsciously or worse consciously inflicted that kind of pain on a child.
And so, I'm very nice and attentive with other people's kids, loving even and I enjoy them very much.  However, and this is weird, sometimes I'll see a child doing something I did when I was 5 or 6, craving attention for example, or being cutsey in a manipulative way and I panic.  Because I flash back to when I craved attention and how that was met with beratement and humiliation  by my own parents.  When that happens I feel very very guilty and very ashamed.
And when i'm in that situation I realize that I've let my parents take up one more awful moment of my time and I'm left once again alone to climb out of the hole.  What a number they pulled on me...I'm handicapped when it comes to even considering becoming a parent and that's why I think I shouldn't have kids.  My upbringing has annihilated that possibility.  I will not experiment with a baby's life like they did because there's at least a 50% chance i'll screw it up.
Kind of like castrating rapists..just in case..as a deterrant.   And yet far, very very deep inside myself I think I could have been a good father.
Not to be..
P.S.  I've never shared this demon of mine with anybody other than my wife.  I hope you (pl.) will not find it too repulsive. I think it's normal to have children for normal people..I guess i'm not normal in this sphere, sadly so.
Nic

[Acappella]

Hi Nic,

I find your desire to not have children SOOOOO NOT REPULSIVE.

You are treating them (and yourselves) like the human life that they/you are rather than a biological right or imparitive, a concept.  You are, obviously my opinion, treating your life and theirs with respect.  

Repulsive?  Repulsive are some of the results of us humans not having time for quality caring for one another and for the world we live in.  I am repulsed by many things such as children being kept perpetually in a basement because neither their parents nor society had a sense of responsibility for caring for them or could somehow not afford to act upon what sense they/we had.  I was in just such a foster home. I am sad sometimes about the impact of my own "upbringing" and some others AND I am repulsed by what I witnessed, such as a girl with a metal plate in her head because her dad threw her against a wall and who was so drugged she barely moved.  Sorry don't mean to be so graphic AND that is a reality that I truly find repulsive.  

By the way, perhaps you and your wife are "so good with children"  in part because you choose to spend time with them.  

Your caring for yourself and your wife and respecting one another's choice is a model for parents and non parents and for any children who get to witness that.  

Your choice requires foresight and courage and is trail blazing for future generations.  Maybe someday every child will have plenty of adults with plenty of time to share with them.

[Anonymous]

Nic, I wholeheartedly "echo" Echo's thoughts    with regard to your expression of not wanting children.  As I have mentioned, and still (embarassingly) feel, I felt that way for  a LONG time.  I have had many people tell me I'd be a great mom, too.  I know that, in my heart.  I think you know you would be a great dad, too.  I see it in your posts.  but that doesn't mean we should be, does it?  Where does it say its a requirement?  Believe me, I have reached this decision with much reservation.  and, partly, came to the conclusion out of fear (my age, time running out, now or never) etc.  I don't remember how old you said you were.

I can relate to your anxieties and even mild irritation when around certain children.  I could only tolerate most other people's children in small doses.  And, I've been told by many people who have children of their own that they even are annoyed by other people's children... this is human!  Heck, I still don't even enjoy being in a room full of women talking about their own childbirth experiences (and I'm pregnant!)

I really beleive this has a lot to do with our upbringing - being raised by toxic parents.  Our perpective has been tarnished.. it is inevitable that we fail to see much joy in having children when our own childhood was hardly joyful.  How can we envision something so significant that we've not experienced?

I am glad you posted.  It makes me feel a little more human, as I still have guilt about these feelings that creep up even as I am forming a life inside of me.  I am sorry to hear of the loss of the child that would have been yours.. but I believe everything happens for a reason.  

The original poster of this thread, Rojo, said that she had fought hard and long to find peace in her adult life.  I'm sure this is some of what you feel too.  Yes, a baby will probably change at least SOME of that!  I'm ready, (I think?) but some of you may not be.  

Hugs

[I_am_mine]

...I will say that if you are concerned about giving up peace and quiet and being able to do whatever you want to do, you are correct, you will have to give up those things. Is raising a baby one of the hardest things to do that there is? Yes. My memories of those early years were that they were brutal, very difficult, and put a strain on our marriage. They were also the some of the most special and rewarding and meaningful times of my life that I will never forget. It is not something that can be explained very well with words and will rock your world in ways that you can’t even imagine. My whole life changed the day my first daughter was born. There is nothing like it.

Rojo, Simon's experiences echo my own.  Many compromises have to be made, your freedom to come and go as you like is gone, you only get peace and quiet on the baby's schedule, which will probably not be when you need it most.  I also understand the strain on the marriage part - there is such an incredibly awesome series of adjustments and changes, and sometimes both partners don't adjust at the same rate, or in the same way.  

Simon's very correct when he says having a child cannot be explained very well in words, and will rock your world in ways you can't even imagine.  Simon, you must be a very involved dad to make these observations, as, traditionally, some dads (and moms, too) don't invest enough time/emotional energy/bonding, whatever you want to call it, to be able to identify and realize what's going on when they have a child.

I left this til last, because to me, it's the most important thing - "They were also the some of the most special and rewarding and meaningful times of my life that I will never forget. ".  My experience is the same, I have never had a more satisfying, fulfilling experience in my whole life. However, it is frequently a thankless experience, you don't necessarily get a lot of positive feedback!  My younger 2 boys are in high school now, my oldest is 20 - I have no idea where the years went and how they grew up so fast, but I know that for me, having children was the right thing to do.  I'm just hoping that I did (and keep trying to do) the right thing for them.

On the other hand, Nic - why do you feel shame for making a decision not to procreate?  Shame?  I'm so sorry you feel like that, it's not necessary that you feel such a negative emotion about making a very important life decision.  You stated your reasons very clearly, and your feelings are definitely valid.  I agree with Echo - your feelings are SOOOOOOOOO NOT repulsive!  To me, it would be much more distasteful if you felt you didn't want children, but had them anyway - because of societal or family pressures, conforming to the "typical" 2.5 child family with the white picket fence, or as you said of your brother, for the purpose of aggrandizing yourself and proving you can procreate.  I've known people in that situation, and my thought is "why didn't they have the courage to trust in themselves, and think of how a wrong decision will affect the child's life, long after the parents are gone, the child/adult will be living with the consequences of being a "trophy" child."

Nic, I don't feel it's selfish to decide not to have children, I think it shows great compassion, not to create a new life for the wrong reasons.  One can be "complete" without children, and I admire you for knowing yourself well enough to have the courage to identify your reasons and stick with your decision.  IMHO, it is courage, rather than shame.

Rojo, it's too major a decision to make unless you're really sure.  There are always those little doubts, but you're intelligent and intuitive enough to be able to separate the "little" doubts from the "big" doubts.  IMHO, there's nothing wrong with delaying having children, or deciding not to have children.  Rather than selfishness, I think it shows sensitivity to the "potential" child.

Nic, I just have to add (and I hope this doesn't aggravate you too much), you sound like you would be a good father.  Your own horrible childhood experience, your obvious empathy and sensitivity, and you seem so responsible and mature.  But I respect your decision, and wish you could let go of the shame, because truly, there is no shame attached to your decision.

Sorry about the run-on post - I have some very strong feelings about the decision to be a parent or not to be a parent, and I can see justification on both sides.  I guess my feelings are less about the adults involved (altho their feelings are extremely important) than about the children who have no choice or decision-making power.  It makes me so sad to see people with "trophy" children, or, like my Ndad, someone who has children just to make little copies of him/herself, or to have someone to control, or someone to receive Nsupply from.

To everyone who actually gets to the end of this, I thank you for your patience.  I hope nothing I said sounded judgmental, or offended anyone.  If I did hurt anyone, I'm truly sorry.

bobbie

[Acappella]

being raised by toxic parents

And I feel some of their toxicity was envirnomental and I don't mean just passed on within a family, I mean nature and culture too.  Meaning it wasn't long ago all of us humans, no matter what country, class or advantage died at half the age we do on average now.  It wasn't long ago that children died more often than not and from natural causes more often than not (still true in many places of course).  While people once connected in small groups perhaps more than we do now, historically haven't we been very ignorant, relatively, of ourselves as a species, a whole group with universal needs etc.?  Who had the time, means or inclination to emapthize with humanity?  A select few compared to now.  I know my own parents had nothing compared to what I have in terms of sources of social empathy, including this forum.