The conspiracy of silence surrounding the narcissist

[bomaguy]

I started to think that there is a conspiracy of silence surrounding the narcissist. Some of the people in the narcissists circle know he/she has a problem. A big problem. Some, particularly spouses and/or lovers, might have done some research and be able to put a name to the pattern of systematic abuse that narcissists, sooner or later, display. Narcissism!

But do we say anything? No. Not usually. We are reticent because we have all, to some greater or lesser extent, collaborated with the narcissist’s fantasy world. They have drawn us all in so successfully that we fear that if we do rebel and call the narcissist’s bluff publicly, others will think that it is us, the victims, who are in need of counselling (and we are! But for different reasons). Also, we are not 100% sure of ourselves and our feelings about the narcissist. Are we really being abused? Or are we just imagining things?  Their brainwashing makes us doubt our gut feelings. They are very persuasive.

Is this conspiracy of silence healthy? No. not for the narcissist, not for the spouse,  the children or the friends and colleagues of the narcissist. We are all afraid of the wrath of the narcissist or his/her inner circle of brainwashed adherents.
In a truly healthy world, the narcissist couldn’t operate. But the narcissist relies on deception and most of us are too easily deceived.

Should we expose him/her? Should we warn the latest targets that they are being targetted? That getting involved will lead to getting used, being denigrated, being destabilised, isolated from our friends and family.
It’s a dilemma isn’t it?

Comments very welcome.

[bunny]

I started to think that there is a conspiracy of silence surrounding the narcissist.

There may be silence but it's not always a conspiracy.

We are reticent because we have all, to some greater or lesser extent, collaborated with the narcissist’s fantasy world. They have drawn us all in so successfully that we fear that if we do rebel and call the narcissist’s bluff publicly, others will think that it is us, the victims, who are in need of counselling (and we are! But for different reasons).

Calling a narcissist's bluff publically is a pretty radical, high-risk thing to do. What would be the reason? To destroy this person's life?

Their brainwashing makes us doubt our gut feelings. They are very persuasive.

They can be, yes.
 

In a truly healthy world, the narcissist couldn’t operate. But the narcissist relies on deception and most of us are too easily deceived.

The narcissist is also deceived.

Should we expose him/her? Should we warn the latest targets that they are being targetted? That getting involved will lead to getting used, being denigrated, being destabilised, isolated from our friends and family.
It’s a dilemma isn’t it?

Exposing the narcissist to others doesn't work. The main reason is that people rarely, if ever, give weight to reports from people warning them. They have to see for themselves. This is human nature. Second reason is that it looks like the warn-er has an axe to grind so no one listens.

bunny

[dogbit]

You've said it very well.  I was just thinking this afternoon about my SIL with whom I've recently spoken after ten years.  First, she could not believe he was still alive...the thought his anger would kill him...and then she said she didn't know how I put up with it for so long.  I don't know why she didn't tell me25 years ago but I know she was scared of him also.  His mother was scared of him!  They probably thought they had died and gone to heaven when I took him off their hands...I think there is a lot of fear of retaliation which is not unrealistic.  And I think a narc does destroy your power of rational reasoning so somehow it is "your" fault.  

  Should we warn the latest targets that they are being targetted? That getting involved will lead to getting used, being denigrated, being destabilised, isolated from our friends and family.
It’s a dilemma isn’t it?

Knowing what I know now, I say yes, we should.  And if the person we are telling thinks we are nuts, they may think more fondly of us later on.  Bittles

[bunny]

Actually I have warned people about certain N's. Not in romantic relationships, I don't think anyone would heed that kind of warning. But on the job. I've issued many, many warnings. They were actually appreciated.

bunny

[cat]

I know I personally didn't discuss this with anyone as I was raised to "honor my father and mother".  To discuss this, or even raise doubts, would be dishonoring to my parents.  

In m own case warning friends/family about my nParents really did not work.  They had to see it for themselves.  They had to see it for themselves.  Additionally friends and family needed to get to know me away from the nparents.  

At that time they were able to determine the nparents were out of their minds!  Family and friends determined it on their own.  In the process, they were able to turn back to me and give some pretty sound advice.

Never knew what about there was a name for it until I read it in "Dear Abby" of all things. . .

Warning friends/family would seem to put my in a battle against the nparents and forcing them to choose friends.

Just my two cents.

[miaxo]

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Actually I have warned people about certain N's. Not in romantic relationships, I don't think anyone would heed that kind of warning.

When X N is dating someone I feel that I should warn her but I never do. I don't think it would come off too well since I'm the ex wife.  Fortunately, the women catch on b/c none of his relationships seem to make it past three months (over the past five years).

It's hard to watch him victimize anyone.  I'm just thankful that so far the women have been able to see through him early on in the relationship. Let's hope that continues to be the case.

[Stormchild]

Mia - they get worse, and we get wiser, over the years. So don't blame yourself for being fooled.
I'm glad you can rejoice when these ladies escape        
but then, you're a good 'un and it shows        

[mum]

Yeah, I deal with this one all the time.
My ex's father was a real N, angry, drunk, abusive and stupid to boot.
He was a walking mass of pain.  He spread his negative energy everywhere he went.  He died in his fifties from smoking, drinking and being angry.
My ex was well trained in this "art" of being a loving man   .
The deal was this: everyone knew this man was bad news but his family was in this group denial, or group FEAR of this little crotchety man.  My ex MIL is now such a screwed up mouse, she walks a mile each day to a PO box rather than have the mailman "know where I live".  OY!

I'm not sure it's a conspiracy of silence as it is an agreement to put up with it rather than endure the pain of speaking up.  My children are currently in this position with their father.  They are terrified of him....but of what?  
I did not have N parents, but I hear the pain in the posts of those who do, and I can relate, because my children are there, right now.
Picture a ridiculous buffoon (like the Wizard of Oz) scaring everyone by blowing angry all the time, with his tricks (the  B**tch lawyer) scaring those he is supposed to love into trembling silence.
I hope they find a voice soon....as I cannot be it (to thier father or the courts) anymore.

[dogbit]

I know I personally didn't discuss this with anyone as I was raised to "honor my father and mother". To discuss this, or even raise doubts, would be dishonoring to my parents.

Yes, I feel the same way.  I talked with my pastor about this and he told me that honoring your parents could also be called respecting your parents.  Meaning, you would extend courtesies to them that you would to anyone.  I guess parents are different from ex-spouses or ex-significant others.  By the time we figure out what is going on, they are not likely to have more children so that is not an issue.  But they could be grandparents to our children.  That is where it gets dicey.  My n-mother sent a pillow to one of my daughters when she was a baby.  It was embroidered.  Nothing special but pretty.  My daughter used it as her lovey...needless to say, lovey grew more delapidated each year.  When my daughter was four, I took all the kids to see grandma.  My daughter proudly marched in and said, look grandma....This is the pillow you sent me.  By that time, it was a mere shadow of itself and really was just a rag.  Grandma immediately went into a tirade of why did you do this to a gift I sent you and why don't you (me) bring your children up right.  My daughter never forgot this but was also able to tell me that she didn't think she liked grandma very much.  I told her that that was just the way grandma was and lovey didn't mind at all.  The point is, my daughter caught on right away.  She caught on because she was allowed to see the truth in what had happened.  Isn't this kind of a way to tell and break the cycle?  And not be dis-respectful?  Honor is kind of a do or die word.   There has to be a middle ground....bittles

[Brigid]

Bombaguy,
My soon-to-be x-FIL is both a major N and an alcoholic.  The family didn't know about the N part, but they certainly knew about the alcoholism and it was totally covered up.  He owns a very large business in town and the fact that he was an alcoholic was known to very few people.  When he would go away for treatment, there were a handful of people who actually knew where he was.

The fact that his children and his wife could not talk about this very major problem in their lives is the reason that they are all screwed up to this day.  My FIL also never took any responsibility or was remorseful (if you're an N you wouldn't) for his behavior or the affect it had on his family.

My N H just lied and hid his behaviors so no one knew what he was doing.  He learned from the master how to survive and prosper and keep your family in the dark.  

I have thought about warning my H's girlfriend about what she is getting herself into (she is still married and might ultimately decide not to leave her husband--if she's smart), but she would never believe me and paint me as the jealous, spiteful wife.  I owe her nothing and could only wish her a lifetime of misery and pain being with him.  It's not a dilemma for me.

Brigid

[Stormchild Guesting]

Hi bomaguy

There is a very interesting book... make that two interesting books... that touch on the issue of denial and silence from very different perspectives.

One is "Vital Lies, Simple Truths", by Daniel Goleman. He's the guy who wrote the book, "Emotional Intelligence". V L, S T is about denial... from the individual level, how we are hardwired to lie to ourselves about some things (!), all the way to the level of international affairs. With visits to family, task group (work), and various sized social groups en route. It is a real eye opener.

The other one is "The Gift of Fear", by Gavin de Becker. Ostensibly, it's a book about how to evaluate and deal with risks from potentially violent crackpots, stalkers, etc., but really, on the most basic level, it's a book about learning to tell yourself the truth even when it's ugly. Or especially when it's ugly. Learning to allow yourself to SEE the truth.

I think you might find some answers in these guys' writings, plus some good (growth-inducing) questions. Every time I read these two books, I learn something new, that I can actually use in my life.

[Jaded911]

Oh boy, this one hit close to home.  I have been playing this one over and over in my head for the last couple of weeks.  This might be a long post so I apologize up front.

My ex N and I had dated for almost 3 yrs when he called it off.  It sent me searching for answers to his behavior and such.  I stumbled upon NPD and I literally sat for 4 hrs reading the same article over and over.  It was like someone had plucked his name out of the article but it was chilling how he would do or say things that were written in the NPD article.

When we broke up I had concerns for his daughters safety.  I had threatened him shortly before we broke up that if he did not seek help for his anger for his daughters sake, I would take the necessary measures to make sure her safety was maintained.  When we broke up I called her school and I asked that they make sure that her safety was monitored.  I asked that if there were any abnormal bruisings or such could they plz report it to the proper authorities.  I also explained that I was not making accusations but that her father had been physical in the past and that I needed to make sure that someone was monitoring her safety.  By law they have to inform the parents of calls of such nature so they told him and I bet it couldnt have been more then 5 minutes later he called me.

He made every threat imagineable and he cussed and he ranted and blah blah.  I told him that if I ever caught wind of him hurting her I would personally make sure that it would be his last.  I wrote his parents a long email explaining how his behavior had been.  I told them he had broken a couple of my ribs and I pleaded with them to force him to get help.  I told him and his parents that if he did not produce a receipt or some kind of proof that he was seeking help for her and his temper I would report him to the proper authorities.  

How stupid and naive could I have been?  Thought I was reaching out to people who cared about their son and their grandaughter.  What I did was put them on full allert.  Instead of going to his house and jerking a knot in his tail, they went to his house and immediately began their damage control.  Within 2 days I was served a summons to court.  He had tried to slap a restraining order on me.  A couple of months went by, we went to court and he dropped all charges.

As we were walking out of the courtroom he asked if we could talk.  I should have ran as fast as I could but ya know what, I did not.  We talked and we ended up getting back together.  I talked for hours with him about his actions and what NPD was.  He confessed he had always known something was wrong and I asked him to put his faith and trust in me and I would stand by him as long as he continued to make progress and such.  Oh he confessed this, and he confessed that, and he told his parents all about his N and blah blah.  Mind you he is a spittin image of his father so you can only guess what came next.

His mothers reply was "if she thinks she is going to get a pat on the back she has another thing coming.  That trouble making BIT** is never to step into my house, and I mean FOREVER!!!!!"  Well she didnt mean forever, she meant until she could devise a plan to get her lil pooky back under her spell.  His parents plotted and they plotted and they laid their seeds once again.  

A yr passed and I had realized how much of myself had been lost in that hell of a year.  I was accused of running off his family, his friend (long story on the friend but its a soap opera story at that).  I had enough, he got physical again and broke tons of my stuff.  As I was packing my stuff up he threw a bunch of my perfumes (dolce & gabbana included, grrrr) and shattered about 20 bottles of it.  I was cleaning it up so I could get the hell out of dodge and he came at me again.  I swung that broom without a second thought and I busted him with a right hook after I hit him with the broom.  10 stitches later and a huuuuge reality check for me at the police station, I realized that a lion is a lion no matter how hard you wish them to be a kitty cat.

I reached out and I told many people on his side.  Know what, I did nothing but make small waves and they perceived me as the nut instead of him.  Not that it mattered because he got it honestly from his parents but good grief.  If someone would have told me that my son had done the stuff that he did to me, I would have kicked his ass so hard as I was packing my grandaughters suitcase to take her to a safe and loving home.  

I think what is so hard for me to deal with is that I lost so much from this relationship.  I sacrificed so much to stand by my man.  What a joke.  It took me awhile to realize that it was STAND BY YOUR MAN, not LET YOUR MAN STAND ON YOU.  To this day I am still the scape goat for him.  Sad thing is, whats their excuse for him for the previous 35 years before I came into his life.  It is just easier for them to sweep this under their rug.  Heck, why wouldnt his family?  His behavior is normal to them, they are N and he learned it from good ole millionaires mommy and daddy.

[Brigid]

Shortly after my H walked out (and went to live with mommy & daddy whose arms were wide open even though he was never asked to leave and he was the one having the affair), I had a conversation with my MIL.  She, of course, did not want to talk about her son's behavior, but just wanted to have idle chit chat.  Mind you I was in the middle of major depression, anxiety, devastation and still trying to figure out what the hell had happened.  When I confronted her about taking him in she said what else could she do and wouldn't I do the same thing.  I said empatically that I would NOT do the same thing and if my son had run away from his wife and children so he could have an affair, he would either have to get his ass home and work it out with his wife or find his own place to live.  

I did not know about the N issue at that time, but told my MIL that I wanted to have a face-to-face meeting with H's family to discuss how I was feeling about everything and confront his father about the role he played in the demise of our marriage.  Needless to say, FIL would have nothing to do with it and will go to his grave claiming that he was a wonderful father and denying that his alcoholism and what I now know is extreme NPD caused any dysfunctions in his children (with my enabling MIL backing him up).  Although from what I have heard from other family members, my MIL knows her son is a mess, she is totally distraught over his behavior, knows she contributed to it, but can't discuss it or admit to it.

I finally gave up on the idea of meeting with them and just had a very long conversation with his only somewhat normal brother and told him the whole story of what had happened.  To this day I have very little contact with anyone in his immediate family (nor do my children) and they continue to live in their world of denial of how screwed up they all are.  Interestingly enough, all the extended family are very close to me and totally understand the mess my H's immediate family is.

Brigid

[October]

I have tried telling members of my extended family about my Nmum.  I have even used the word 'narcissist' and 'sociopath' once or twice.  Mostly what I get in return is blanking out of words like that, and a return to 'your mother loves you really' or 'she thinks the world of you.'  Meanwhile, from dad, when I tiptoe ever so carefully towards the subject, I get 'she will never change' followed by a list of complaints about how badly she treats him.    

The family myth is very strong, and nobody wants to believe it is a myth.

I think there is no need to spend time wondering whether to tell or not, and how, and when.  You could paint it in red letters ten feet high opposite their front door, and they would not see what it says.

Fantasy thoughts about what to paint opposite the front door:  

MY  MOTHER IS AS CLOSE TO INSANE AS YOU CAN GET AND STILL BE OUTSIDE:  SHE IS A SOCIOPATH:  SHE IS A NARCISSIST:  SHE IS EATING EVERYONE ALIVE, AND YOU ARE LETTING HER DO IT!!!!

(imo)  

[daylily]

But do we say anything? No. Not usually. We are reticent because we have all, to some greater or lesser extent, collaborated with the narcissist’s fantasy world. They have drawn us all in so successfully that we fear that if we do rebel and call the narcissist’s bluff publicly, others will think that it is us, the victims, who are in need of counselling (and we are! But for different reasons). Also, we are not 100% sure of ourselves and our feelings about the narcissist. Are we really being abused? Or are we just imagining things?  Their brainwashing makes us doubt our gut feelings. They are very persuasive.

I think one of the biggest problems with "speaking out" about narcissists is that the condition is virtually untreatable.  These people do not change; they see no need to change.  Therefore, the person who speaks out becomes a troublemaker, a danger to the family, a nutcase.  If there are other, valuable realtionships in the system (say, with a sibling), those relationship could be irrevocably damaged.  It's a tough, tough call.

My mother is quite old now, and I've come to the conclusion that confronting her would be futile, exhausting, and--most important--fruitless.  For me, I feel that my primary duty is to myself, not to the rest of the family.  I put my energy into establishing and maintaining boundaries, doing what needs to be done to preserve my own mental health while also doing what I perceive as my duty towards an elderly, ill parent.  My siblings have coped largely by disengaging from her, which leaves me holding the financial and logistical bag as far as her care goes.  So it's a difficult balancing act to be responsive to her legitimate needs without letting her consume me.

I've thought a lot about "speaking out," and decided it's not worth the effort for me.  But I think it's probably quite different if the N in your life is not your parent.  As with everything else, it depends.

Interesting thread.  Thanks for starting it.