respect

[write]

Certain people in my life are never going to love me, accept me, recognize me, and the more I'm "in their face" about it, the more I'm disrespecting both them and myself.

It's hard to make sense of this--at least, I suspect I'm not doing a good job--but I think any discussion of respect has to include this distinction between respect and attention. Someone can "respect" me (i.e., not infringe upon my boundaries) while paying no attention to me at all. And I can do the same.

The difficulty with this one and living in the US is the culture isn't like my own.

People can be all over me here, they love the accent & my musical talents, we have a wonderful time, I can think it's the start of a long close friendship-and two weeks later they have forgotten everything we discussed or arranged.

It's happened over and over again, and I'm learning now to have less to do with superficial people, to be more wary of someone who wants to be my best friend ten minutes after meeting me, and to ignore all the cues which in my own country mean someone cares about you: repeatedly asking after you- which here is often just a greeting & you're not meant to answer truthfully! being physically affectionate, giving gifts etc.

Don't get me wrong- not everyone's like this by any means, I have some wonderful friends here, and it's something some of my american friends worry or complain about too.

But the biggest thing I had to learn about living here was not to take it personally.

Of course in england people can be more negative and hostile, it takes a long time to 'belong' ...but I didn't get the 'mixed messages' which happen frequently here.

The other thing is- I am very gullible. I pay too much attention to what people say- too little to what they do.

Like with the church. I believe it when people talk about compassion and respect and taking care of one another, and I thought I had found a community which would cushion me during my long illness and marital breakdown. A couple of my friends have been wonderful- but there was no wider community, last time I went to church the minister never even asked how I was, the support group for people with bipolar never got set up, and the twice I was suicidal in the past year the church was the last place I felt safe to go and ask for help.

So I left. And I know over time I'll be glad about that. Sincerity is very important, especially for people trying to heal old wounds.

But it's been a painful-if necessary- process.

Thanks for helping me unravel all this. I really think it's the key to changing the way I do relationships and take better care of myself.

[mudpup]

I'm glad this thread got back on track.

Write,

Sorry you've met so many superficial Americans. Most people I know are not like that.

About churches. They're like any other institution or even people for that matter. Some are good, some are mediocre, and some are down right bad. It usually depends on the leadership. Apathetic pastors and leaders attract apathetic followers. An angry pastor attracts an angry congregation. Likewise for a loving one.
You would not have been treated that way in my church. You might have gotten sick of all the busybodies trying to help you , but you would not have felt alone or unsafe.
Which isn't to say its perfect. There are weirdos and evil people everywhere. That's life. Someone suggested putting them all in a cage somewhere. I would that we could.

If you don't mind me asking, just out of curiosity, how long have you been in the USA and are you on the west coast, east coast or somewhere in the middle?

mudpup

[Anonymous]

People can be all over me here, they love the accent & my musical talents, we have a wonderful time, I can think it's the start of a long close friendship-and two weeks later they have forgotten everything we discussed or arranged.

Of course in england people can be more negative and hostile, it takes a long time to 'belong' ...but I didn't get the 'mixed messages' which happen frequently here.

Write, I just wanted to add a comment on that cultural distinction.

I've often wondered why Americans seem to put such a premium on being "nice."  By "nice," I think people generally mean that sort of surface concern, warmth, and attention that could easily be mistaken for genuine feeling--except that it isn't genuine feeling.  One of the "nicest" people I know is my mother-in-law:  generous with hugs, asks after the extended family, tries not to speak ill of anyone.  Not bad in itself, of course.  Except that her concern lasts for exactly as long as it takes to ask the question or make the comment.  If you ever dared to answer, "How are you?" with "Well, not so good," I think she would die of shock.  More than that, the mention of anything remotely personal or serious makes her really uncomfortable.  She simply doesn't want to talk about it.

I've been to England a few times, once for an extended stay, and I felt very comfortable there.  It seemed that, in general, people made a clearer distinction between social contact and friendship.  In other words, they didn't ask unless they really wanted to know, and they weren't nearly so lavish with the praise (which is something that kind of drives me nuts about American culture, but that's another story).  Take that for what it's worth, of course--I didn't even try to "belong" there.  But I do see the differences you've mentioned, and I can understand how a transplanted Brit could find it difficult and dispiriting to try to read American social signals.  I was born and raised in Pennsylvania, and most of the time I get it wrong.

Wishing you a good day,
daylily

[Anonymous]

Hi Cat,

Since this thread is repectful again, let me take a crack at your question about how to respect disrespectful parents.

Hmmmm............ I have no idea. My mom has assisted my brother throughout his war on me and I am really at a loss as to how to deal with her respectfully. We haven't spoken in over two years. I never really blew up at her when she was repeating false accusations about me or telling me to kiss my brother's rear end.
 I was too astonished that she would behave that way to be truly disrespectful, but I can say I zero respect left for her.
Maybe somebody else can help us out. I have no answers for you.

mudpup

[mudpup]

Hi write and daylily,

A question occurs to me.
Are there less people who truly care for others in America or does it only seem that way because there is a culture of niceness in the USA?

Lets try a mind game.
Lets say twenty percent of the people in each of two countries are truly loving, caring people.
In one country the remaining eighty percent are aloof or hostile.
In the other the remaining eighty percent are superficially kind and caring.

Is it possible the plain spoken, genuinely hostle and aloof country would seem to have more caring people because the decent people stood out in stark contrast to the snots;
while the superficial country would seem to have less decent people because so many people seemed like niceness hypocrites?

Personally after all the genuine open hostility I've been subjected to the last few years a little phony tea and sympathy sounds pretty refreshing.  

Just a thought.

mudpup

[cat]

Mudpup - glad the thread's back.

Been struggling with the words honor and respect.  Churches that I've gone to say honor. . .so I checked on the definition in Webster's.  

Honor:
1:good name or public esteem : REPUTATION b : a showing of usually merited respect
2 : PRIVILEGE
3 : a person of superior standing -- now used especially as a title for a holder of high office
4 : one whose worth brings respect or fame
5 : the center point of the upper half of an armorial escutcheon
6 : an evidence or symbol of distinction
7 : CHASTITY, PURITY
8 a : a keen sense of ethical conduct : INTEGRITY b : one's word given as a guarantee of performance
9 plural : social courtesies or civilities extended by a host <did the honors at the table>

Respect:
1 : a relation or reference to a particular thing or situation
2 : an act of giving particular attention : CONSIDERATION
3 a : high or special regard : <paid our respects>

Going by Webster's - HONOR to me - is showing merited respect.  MERITED.  By being someone's daughter or son - does that alone make it "merited".

Respect though - different animal. . .paying particular attention to a situation or thing.  Goodness gracious - - I think we all pay attention to a particular thing or situation the N parent puts us through.

Very confusing topic - and tough to figure out what's right.  Ultimately, in terms of the parents - I think everyone would like to do what is right.  But then again, when the parents haven't done what is right, what is right? ? ?

A vicious cycle.

[longtire]

cat, your post touches something in me.  I guess I identify with feeling confused about things which seem like they are obvious to others, but never got explained to me.  So, I'll do here what I do with myself when I feel confused.

cat, what do you REALLY want by getting the "right" answer?  Do you want someone to tell you that you have done enough and it is OK to stop trying?  Do you want someone to tell you that there is nothing wrong with you, that you have done all you could in a difficult situation?  Do you want someone to tell you it was never your fault?

I'm sorry if I misread and am justing projecting onto the situation.  I feel such a searching in your post and would like to help (if able).

[write]

4 years/ 3 moves/ all Southern states.

I feel remarkably calm for having been able to acknowledge all this, and it's not triggering any panic or free-floating-anxiety or specific fears.

Do you want someone to tell you that you have done enough and it is OK to stop trying? Do you want someone to tell you that there is nothing wrong with you, that you have done all you could in a difficult situation? Do you want someone to tell you it was never your fault?

I think that's exactly what I wanted- not realising that I will only believe it when it's me telling myself! ( if that makes sense )

My therapist asked me similar questions earlier this week, encouraging me to examine how I feel, not look outside myself for reassurance. And especially- not to look for that reassurance from npeople or other difficult people. I don't know whether I thought I could reprogramme my life by doing that & finally get my parents ( one of whom is dead ) to realise I'm ok...but that's in a way how it feels, and that I've approached several relationships this way, making myself vulnerable and then waiting for them to come and take care of me...

I've been thinking up some new 'relationship rules' for me for the future, will post again later.[/i]

[cat]

Longtire - I think you hit the nail on the head with your last post.  

My sister and I have coped by each of taking turns taking time out from parents. . . and then feeling guilty that we're not respecting or honoring them.

Your thought swere very insightful and helpful.

[Anonymous]

Another point to consider:

Let's say we all agree that respect is basic consideration and treating a person with enough consideration that the treatment is at least humane.

Then let's say that people who perpetrate horrific deeds do not deserve the least bit of respect.

Does that mean then, that we should give them no basic consideration, treat them with so little of it that the treatment is inhumane?

Wouldn't that make us exactly like them?

[Anonymous]

Guest wrote,

Let's say we all agree that respect is basic consideration and treating a person with enough consideration that the treatment is at least humane.

I'd say thats a pretty low bar for the term 'respect'.

Then let's say that people who perpetrate horrific deeds do not deserve the least bit of respect.

Does that mean then, that we should give them no basic consideration, treat them with so little of it that the treatment is inhumane?

Wouldn't that make us exactly like them?

There seem to be a lot of potential definitions in here.
What is inhumane to you might be perfectly fine to someone else.
Lots of people think hanging rapists by the neck until dead is perfectly humane, as long as they get a tasty and nutritious breakfast beforehand.
I'm not sure how respectful it is though.

The moral equivalence argument is pretty slippery ground.
Lets take an example of false imprisonent.
Say a criminal keeps an innocent person locked in his basement for twenty years.
Now is society exactly like him if they choose to punish him by locking him in prison for twenty years? Unequivocally no, it is protecting itself from a predator.
If someone breaks into my house and is trying to kill my wife, am I exactly the same as him if I deprive him of his life? H#%l no! I would have neither the least amount of respect for him nor any desire to treat him humanely.
Respect and humane treatment are sometimes luxuries when the horrific deeds you speak of are being done, in my opinion. Afterward when the danger is past the perpetraters of horrific acts are entitled not to be cruelly treated. That is about as far as I'm willing to go to extend respect or humane treatment to them. If you are stating that basic consideration for horrific deeds means not being tortured or lynched then I guess I agree with you. If you're saying much more than that then I guess I don't.

mudpup

[Anonymous]

Isn't it funny how we do that? "How are you today?" We expect to hear "Oh, great, and you?" "Just fine." It is superficial most of the time, but I think it's just more of an acknowledgement that you "count"...

But if you really count, wouldn't someone want to know how you really are doing?

I'd rather just have someone wave and say 'hi' to me. Ask me how I am if you want to know; don't if you don't... life's too short to spend it pretending.

I was born in the States and grew up here, but I have never in my life been comfortable with this kind of interacting myself. I felt completely at home - for the first time in my life! - only when I lived in England and Europe, in my 30s. Where people waved and said hi if they didn't know you well enough to ask how you were; so when they asked, they meant it.

And no, I'm not at all a stolid, serious, sententious type. Far from it!

Hang in there write, you aren't alone with this, even some of us Colonials mind it       .

[Anonymous]

There seem to be a lot of potential definitions in here.

Agreed.

Afterward when the danger is past the perpetraters of horrific acts are entitled not to be cruelly treated.

Thankyou for clarifying this as this is what I meant.  Ofcourse, while a horrific deed is being perpetrated on us, or others, we must self defend, and save those who are innocently being harmed, first, imo, hopefully by using as little force as necessary.

Ofcourse, "not to be cruelly treated" means what?  Does that mean treated with basic respect?

The reason I ask is what if the perpetrator happens to be one of your loved ones?

After they've behaved horrifically, perpetrators remain someone's son, daughter, wife, mother, brother, sister, husband, father, etc.

If we treat them cruelly, disrespectfully, etc, don't we also harm parents and loved ones of perpetrators by doing so?  Those people must stand by and watch their loved one being treated with disrespect and cruetly?  So in the end, we end up behaving in a similar way as those we wish to stop, punish, or correct?

[Portia]

Write,   hello, how are you (serious question)? This is Portia. How am I? Oh fine thanks!

I think everyday etiquette is just great. It stops us from murdering each other. It makes us all feel like we belong and we’re a part of a society. It’s superficial but very important. Good manners = a kind of respect. Good manners = acknowledging that other people actually do exist (which is a pretty good feeling for kids of Ns). If we don’t do that, we all start feeling terrible and take to expressing that feeling through destruction of our immediate environment, and stuff . So I like etiquette.

But we can’t expect more than we give. Everything is give and take - reciprocal. If I ask how you are and you spend an hour telling me and never ask me how I am, how do you think I feel? (This is me talking from past experience with people who just love to talk but never listen.)

Re-spect is to look back at, consider.

Write specifically:

to be more wary of someone who wants to be my best friend ten minutes after meeting me, and to ignore all the cues which in my own country mean someone cares about you: repeatedly asking after you- which here is often just a greeting & you're not meant to answer truthfully! being physically affectionate, giving gifts etc.

Someone who wants to be your best friend 10 minutes after meeting you? I’d wonder what scam they were running. People who do that are after something. If someone repeatedly asks after me, gives me gifts (shock!) I think they’re softening me up for some deed. Opening up the supply vein.   Oh yuk, sorry.

Ordinary people simply do not behave like that. Ordinary (good, self-aware, self-confident, self-respectful) people aren’t overbearing like that. IMO this has little to do with countries. In my country (England) if someone treated me like that I’d be very suspicious. They’d be trampling all over my boundaries, or I’d be allowing them. I’d refuse gifts. I’d shrink from physical contact (I have yelled at sales people on the street “don’t touch me!” because that’s my boundary, cultural issues or not, I really don’t care).

The things you describe Write, about ‘caring activities’? I would judge them to be ‘taking advantage of’ activities. But then I have no friends! Hmmm. Apparently most people have about 4 or 5 people who are friends (‘they’ did a study). Finding those 4 or 5 people is hard work; most people you meet (er….95%-96%?) will not be ‘good friend’ material because that is simply how it is.   Apparently.

[mudpuppy]

Hi guest,

This is the kind of discussion I appreciate. Nice and friendly, nobody taking offense over a simple disagreement of philosophies.

I'm having a hard time understanding exactly what you are saying. A definition problem again maybe.
I said a person who commits a horrific act should not be treated cruelly, and defined that as being neither tortured nor denied due process of the law.
It almost sounds as though you are saying once the act is in the past this perpetrator is entitiled to the same respect and consideration as people who have commited no such act or possibly even the victim of the act, and that to do anything less is to be just like the perp.
If that is what you are saying then I disagree utterly.
Once a person has demonstrated the willingness to commit a horrific act they have forfeited many rights, including the right to equal respect and treatment from others. They may regain that right after many years of redemptive behavior, but to accord someone who has done something awful the same consideration as those who haven't, is to truly harm the parents and loved ones of the victim.
It is unfortunate that the parents and loved ones of predators are harmed by the reaction to what the predator does, but I'm afraid that is one of the unfixable facets of life. The alternative of pretending like nothing happened is worse.
If I misunderstand what you're saying let me know.

mudpup