I am in need of divorce tips, suggestions, etc.. Please.

[Acappella]

Update from last night when I posted this....I only intended to ask for (and am still seeking) logistical kinds of feedback...others who had protected themselves in a divorce or hadn't and are wiser now for it. I vented a lot and so didn't stay focused on logistics.  Of course, sometimes the best feedback is what I didn't ask for.  I am trying to focus, in between ventings, on working to have a plan..preparing irrespective of what I do or don't do ultimately.  There is no way I will stay with the way this relationship is now.  Just wanted to clarify up front here.  
P.S. To those folks who responded ...your responses here are such a life preserver.  I still feel trapped though not as much and I don't feel so alone in the world.  THANK YOU.  

Last nights post:
I am in my bedroom with the door locked and closed.  Mr. N is in full lash out mode.  Good news is I aint crying my soul dry over him nor am I playing his hate game as I have in the past.

I believe he is acting out in part cause he senses I am getting stronger and he is scared I am going to leave him. He is so right about my leaving. If only he'd admit not wanting me to go at least he would be human. If he would only admit that beneath the creulty is fear or sadness.  He won't. I used to cry and plead with him to stop and I asked him not leave! I can barely believe now that I did that.  He has never said with any emotion that he needs me, wants me.  Perhaps after a big fight once a long time ago?  Mixed up mixed messages.

I am so tired and I've got to get busy. I've got to start researching divorce options.  I haven't been divorced before.  We have moved 3 times in four years and he messed up my credit.  I didn't give him the opportunity to mess with my credit the first year and a half we were together.  Then I was working and he lost his job and he paid bills on time for a few months (i double checked ahead of the due date) and just when I thought he had begun to enjoy paying things on time vs the stress of getting late fees etc. he messed up my credit and just didn't pay bills and hid the evidence during the move to this city where he got a new job.  His sister is a lawyer who has rescued him from his mess ups with the irs and getting his car repossessed even though he had the money to pay. His mom had signed for the loan. He ruined her perfect credit.    She is 65 and still working to pay for her medications.  I didn't know that until recently.  He was in therapy for a while and I saw improvements.  Then we moved here and he hasn't started counseling again.  We used my good credit (40 years I kept it excellent).   So we are in debt without a home and just one used car between us.  He got his repossessed though he makes a good salary, more than twice what I ever have.  I had paid my car off and then sold it to move to this city.  

I have left men who treated me far worse and yet I am finding it harder than ever to leave.  I don't know what it is exactly.  I was so sad about what we could have given each other and how we could have grown together.  I was sad about not having the shared experience of a family, children etc.  I really understand a lot about this man I respect and like some of his qualities and I believe I understand much of the pain that led to his being so messed up (pain he won't go near).  I wanted to be a good team mate and stick through the tough times with him.  He works hard at his career and when he lost his job I stood by him and let him know that although I was scared I also saw it as an opportunity for him to look for his true self.  He did get a better job, more real environment.  I don't think while living with a woman he will heal anyway though.  My being here is in the way of both of our potentials to heal and grow.  My staying is mostly about feeling exhausted and my resources being depleted.  When I met him I was recovering from melanoma which I'd gone through alone and oddly enough I feel more tired now than I ever did then.

Anyway, if any of you have tips you can offer about how to go about protecting one's self (what is left of myself) during a divorce I'd appreciate your input. (I am not asking feedback be limited to that though or even limited to just feedback.) I am considering bankruptcy though I've avoided that for 41 years so I hate to go that route. With his salary and both of us working perhaps we could have paid off the debt.  I did a spread sheet before he lost his job and could see a light at the end of the tunnel.  Now, the move was expensive and my credit messed up and I have been unemployed for months ...we are in more debt.  I have no idea how this all works in a divorce. I've learned most everything the hard way and alone.  I am learning to reach out and take protective precautions.  I wish I'd found this site a few years ago.  

Thanks all.  P.S. We have no children.  That is good and I am so sad about not having the shared experience of a family.

[seeker]

Hey there Acappella,

I hope things have quieted down since you wrote this post and that you are safe.  My heart goes out to you.

Let me say right off the bat, I've never been divorced either.  But I wanted to reach out to you right now.  Therefore, this is all "if I were in Acappella's shoes, what would I do?" kind of thinking.  Take it with a grain of salt.  You are really smart to plan before heading straight to divorce court. [Big Hug.]

First, take a deep breath.  I'm not being facetious.  You are in the heat of battle and are probably feeling overwhelmed with the constant up and down chaos.  And in the spirit of stabilizing your head, go somewhere safe and quiet where you won't be disturbed.  I often go to the park or library just for some downtime from family living.  Books are my best friends, so I'm at the library a lot  

I would then grab the yellow pages and look up women's shelters, women's services, etc, not necessarily to move out (but if you are not safe, please consider it!!), but to look into options and find out about resources.  I would look for people who want to help without pushing their agenda on me.  That is, some well-meaning folks might automatically think you want divorce right now, move out right now, etc.  while I read some ambivalence in your note.  

As I talk to people, I will try to stay attuned to my feelings and reactions to what they advise me to do.  If I have a strong gut feeling like "NO, I don't want to do that" or "YES, I really need to think about that" or "I don't know if that will work" listen to those feelings.  Intuition is really a valid guide.  If the advice fits, you will feel it.  (I have a different situation in my life which requires me to "shop" for similar services and I've learned who to accept on the "team" and who to cut.)  You will get advice, and it's your responsibility to make decisions that you will live with.  (I don't mean to harsh here...just want to emphasize that you are in the driver's seat).  

Perhaps through your previous journeys, you are aware that some people get a little bent when you don't take their advice.  I wish more people (esp. friends, not nec. professionals) would understand that advice is information to be sorted through our own filters, and that our decisions are based on what will work for us, not a reflection on the "correctness" of their decisions.  One size doesn't fit all.  I also point this out, because you are probably in a fragile, sensitive state right now.  It might be helpful to say to folks who are directive in their advice, "you know, just the fact that you are willing to share your experience and insight is so valuable to me.  You have helped me so much in giving me options."  Hopefully, this will help you keep friendly people on your team and they won't feel rejected or invalidated themselves.  Their emotional support is just as important as the information they have to offer.  But being only human, some folks can go sideways in sensitive situations.  Don't let this dynamic push you away at first.  If you just want someone to listen while you think out loud, just let them know.  They'll be forewarned that you don't want to be blugeoned with advice/orders.  Hey! this whole post is "advice" but if you hit the delete button, I'll understand!  

Apologies for not remembering from your posts if you are Catholic or not, but I don't think it will matter.  You might try looking up the local Catholic Charities organization if you feel you want to try everything to save the marriage before finally deciding.  (Your call!)  They have marriage counseling services.  Contrary to public press or youthful conditioning, many churches are NOT judgmental and want to help.  They have seen many, many people in a world of hurt.  They are not there to feel superior or judge you.  But again, this is a matter of finding a good fit.  

You have had to dig and research on your own before.  I really hear you.  All of the above is probably stuff you've thought of, but I'm hoping that just receiving it from someone else gives you some encouragement and "company".  Perhaps there is a divorce support group in town that you could attend right now to find real live in-person companions on the journey to give you a shoulder to lean on.  

I hope this helps.  I'm not the most qualified person to flag you in as you try to land the plane on the aircraft carrier during a storm, but I'm waving my arms and flashlights wildly to let you know you're on the radar.  You've still got plenty of fuel and you're going to make it.   Stay safe. Hugs, Seeker

[Acappella]

Your response means so much to me Seeker.  Thank you.  I am at a loss for words (can you believe it?! ).  Oh yikes here come a few after all.....Those book friends of yours are smart for sure and I am certain they don't know how lucky they are.

[Anonymous]

acapella,

I think you need an attorney. You have too much to lose. Also I would recommend the book, "How To Do Your Own Divorce In ___(whatever state you live in)." It's published by Nolo Press. Even if you don't handle the divorce by yourself, it's a good book on the legal process.

Bunny

[CC]

Acapella,

I am sorry to see you in so much pain but at the same time I see strength in you more than since I've known you (Echo.).

I certainly understand your fears.  I've never been divorced, and I can't imagine haven't to contemplate leaving my husband.  I did leave a fiance that I lived with for three years however.  I would say though that you are beginning to follow your gut, and your gut knows that this man is not likely to willingly change, or even if he did temporarily, it might not prove to have longevity.

As Seeker suggested, couples counseling is always my first thought... but didn't you try this before?  Maybe I am confusing you with someone.  The problem as we all know is that most Ns are capable of snowing over the therapist.

My N mother went to some counseling several years back to deal with grief about my dad's death and worked a little on herself.  It didn't last long, and the result was this:  She is now able to identify in herself that she is emotionally immature, but the behavior has not changed.  She can be reminded that she is hurting me (or someone else), and will apologize... but the behaviors continue because she doesn't know any other way and can't (won't) change.  The moral of the story?  A true N is incapable of EMPATHY.  Acknowledgement is helpful, but as someone else suggested, is an N ever truly capable of healing?  That's even assuming they want to! She continues to use, manipulate, lie, hurt, and control, even if she feels bad about it later (which I don't think she does other than in principle - it is more for fear of losing those that are her admirers).

So, the options become, if we are comparing it to an N situation, as I see it:

1. Accept this man for who is is, love him unconditionally and learn how to distance and protect yourself with boundaries.  But true intimacy will be almost impossible. If you bring children into the marriage with him later, you will be doing so knowing you may have to protect them or teach them how to protect themselves from his N behaviors. Can you experience peace within yourself under these circumstances?

2. Accept this man for who he is, and love yourself unconditionally.  Acknowledge that you cannot change him, and decide you want to experience true intimacy and peace elsewhere.

3. Decide not to decide now, but take a moving-forward action: remove yourself physically from the picture (since there are no children you are lucky to have this option) and take time to be apart and decide.  Go to counseling together, and apart.  Use your intuition to see if his behaviors change if he promises to.  Learn how to distinguish between geniune change and manipulations.

I think a big part of why this is harder for you than past relationships is probably age.  I know that I would have had more strength to "bounce back" at 25 than now at 36.  Our lifestyles change.  We get comfortable in our 30's and later.  We are mature, we are homey, we're not out clubbing like we used to. We fear "will I ever meet someone again?" or fears about that the pickins get more slim as we get older (with age comes more "baggage"?)

The good news is - because of the experiences and maturity.. we become less needy, don't we? Especially us here, because we are healing.  When you met your now husband, you were probably needy of him in ways that were subconscious.  I think what you are experiencing now is that you might not need him like you used to!  It doesn't mean you don't love him, but you might recognize that some of the love may have been immeshed with need.  If you leave him,  you probably won't feel the "need" to replace him, because of the growth you've done.  You might find peace within yourself - and healthier people will be drawn to you automatically.  It is under these circumstance that I met my now husband, whom I am happy with and when we have problems is healthy enough to work with me (sincerely).

So, that is a lot of lip service for me to be giving considering I've never been in your shoes.  Please take it with a grain of salt, or tell me to go to hell. whichever you feel, I won't be offended!  

Whatever you decide, I am here and supportive. A very big decision indeed. Good luck with your ponderings.

[Acappella]

Thanks Bunny, I'll check out those books.  I had heard something about Nolo being good but I didn't know what they were about.  Sounds like an excellent start.  

While I am there I think I'll browse the shelves for Cliff notes for life...now there is an idea, eh? Oh those are only written after the story is over?  Drat.

[Acappella]

Hi CC,

thank you for your oh so thorough and warm response.  thank you also for noting what you notice about me.  I have made myself invisible for so long.  

I am fighting off some kinda bug or something (in addition to my husband's funky behavior) so I am hoping to feel even stronger soon.  

What you said about your mom's "progress" is very much like what I am experiencing with my husband.  

And age...in some ways well I am more needy.  I need less quantity and more quality I think.  And I tire more easily and I don't travel so light. I didn't own stuff when I was young.  I am talking REAL baggage.

Your option list...for me 2 is the only option I feel now and once I have my own place and a job I like if he wants to go to couseling together I might.  If I did I imagine it would only be to help him work to understand what happened and perhaps for a healthier friendship for us if we were to remain friends.  

Yes we went to counseling together and separate.  The therapist was good in that

1)  he called it like he saw it (karate mind was his description in addition to Narcissism regarding my husband's tendancies).  And

2) he was compassionate.  He stuck to the topic of feelings and didn't let my husband bully him nor distract him with stories, facts, chit chat etc. at least from what I saw.   The therapist knew how to get to my husbands insecurities and pain and once there be kind despite my husband's sharp defenses.  For me it was the first time in my life I'd ever felt so  acknowledged and protected.  When the therapist called my husband on his spewing anger at me and punishingness I was shocked.  I thought it was invisible.  I didn't trust my own feelings and didn't know/feel I didn't - when our therapist spoke up and nailed right then and there I realized what feeling I'd been missing.  My husband was shocked too.  He thought it was invisible.  He had convinced himself.  The therapist also helped point out when I wasn't listening and/or wasn't speaking up.  I just read some of Richard Grossman's excellent articles and in one he describes inroads made between a therapist and all walled off patient that are then patched over detoured again by camaflage, by defenses.  (This is begining to sound like a road runner cartoon).  I suspect that patching began to occur near the end.  We had started therapy at my insistence when my husband was suffering greatly at his job (some a result of his bullying and hiding/posing/not communicating and some because the culture was condusive to that sort of thing....unhealthy in general).  Also we were having terrible fights.  He is in a kinder gentler job situation which appears less condusive to his being overwhelmed.  I refuse to have the kinds of fights we used to and am stronger.  So far my assessment is only big time pain is a motivator for him.   I cannot be a provider of that pain any more.  Only in leaving perhaps. I wish he was inspired by a feeling of a potentially better life.  He doesn't appear to be.  

Thanks again.  

The weekend is starting and I am shoring up for more of the same as last night.  Yeeesh.

No time to spell check....

[Anonymous]

Get yourself a good, junk-yard-dog divorce attorney.  And follow his/her advice. And do it ASAP, before you move out or make any decisions (unless you are in danger, of course).

[Anonymous]

Hey  there Seeker,

I hope things have quieted down since you wrote this post and that you are safe. My heart goes out to you.

Thank you seeker. I can really feel your kindness in what you say.

[Big Hug.]

Thank you again.  

Instead of calming down...we blew up.  My husband somehow discovered this site.  He didn't tell me directly.  I made sure not to check the auto log in option.  I erased history stuff regularly.  I have said everything to him that I have written here anyway.   He was really cold and crewl again tonight and I started to cry (damn it!) and he blurted out ..."you're outta here anyway."  "I found out about the voicelessness forum."  "It all sounds intellectual to me anyway."  "You are probably mad at me for reducing you to having to go to those lengths for 'support'."  He didn't get it.  I am not ashamed of posting here.  I can see that if I'd met my husband or not I would have been better off finding this avenue for connecting. I know it has limitations.  Hey this is a process.  I am hearing a vacant echo across a cold and dark canyon right now in my head.  "I know" "I know"  "I know"  "I am not perfect"  If anything I could thank him as it is only because of our problems that I reached out...couldn't afford therapy so I dug deeper and broader.  hardship/necesity  is the mother of invention or whatever.  Last comment he made was "You don't sound now like you did on that forum."  Why do I let his lack of sensitivity lead me to feel duplicitous about myself?  I instantly felt like a fraud.  My reaction is to run like a damned gerbal on one of the wheels until I die just to "prove" I am worthy of love.  Arrrrg. I imagine he has a similar wheel and he hates me for disturbing his run.

First, take a deep breath. I'm not being facetious. You are in the heat of battle and are probably feeling overwhelmed with the constant up and down chaos.

Again, thank you and you are so right.  I just took a deep breath.  The way you say things I really get you are not facetious.  I have been told to take a deep breath by my husband and I felt like a dog being told to lay down.  Not that he intended it to come out that way and still I don't feel that the way that you write it.

And in the spirit of stabilizing your head, go somewhere safe and quiet where you won't be disturbed.

Due to cold weather, a closed library and a having to sign a lease to live where we are at and other reasons I am home now.  I am working to create that place inside myself and here on this site. I feel weird now that he could be reading this and I am trying not to let him cause me to recoil from here.  

I would look for people who want to help without pushing their agenda on me

.  Very wise Seeker.   At least if I am going to be pushed I want to select someone with an agenda I share to pushed by.  Coaches push and it is done in the best cases with clarity about the team agenda.

As I talk to people, I will try to stay attuned to my feelings and reactions to what they advise me to do. If I have a strong gut feeling like "NO, I don't want to do that" or "YES, I really need to think about that" or "I don't know if that will work" listen to those feelings. Intuition is really a valid guide.

Emotionally brilliant Seeker.  thank you.  

erhaps through your previous journeys, you are aware that some people get a little bent when you don't take their advice.  I wish more people (esp. friends, not nec. professionals) would understand that advice is information to be sorted through our own filters, and that our decisions are based on what will work for us, not a reflection on the "correctness" of their decisions.

Wow.  Awesome insight.  

 

Their emotional support is just as important as the information they have to offer.

The former makes the later so much more palletable.  

But being only human, some folks can go sideways in sensitive situations.

Yup.  I zig zag myself.

Don't let this dynamic push you away at first. If you just want someone to listen while you think out loud, just let them know. They'll be forewarned that you don't want to be blugeoned with advice/orders

. I get sad here as my husband and I did that for a while.  I'd got so happy when he announced "I just need to vent for a while."  Direct communication is like sunlight and fresh air.  I asked him to please say what he wanted and he did on a couple of occassions.  I recall a few times in four years he announced what he wanted and needed.  I felt safe when he did.  

Hey! this whole post is "advice" but if you hit the delete button, I'll understand!

Are you kidding?  I know I can hit the delete button either on the keyboard or in my head and I am savoring this...is there a savor button?

Apologies for not remembering from your posts if you are Catholic or not,

Cut it out.  Apologie not called for here.  Your caring is so obvious.    

many churches are NOT judgmental and want to help. They have seen many, many people in a world of hurt. They are not there to feel superior or judge you

. I respect religions in that they speak to the collective good and I feel that is too often ignored in our individualistic society. And they have been picking up the pieces of broken souls and inspiring love and healing forever.   I so appreciate the values that religion supports.  I am sure that Jesus and/or the concept of him is great.  Maybe I am in deep trouble with this and yet I don't feel I can't go that route.  Religions I've looked into are so specific and I am seeking something more universal.  I guess it isn't mutually exclusive the specific and the universal.  Ok, I am rambling and turning this into an apology ...I feel sad about it and I am just not feeling I'd ever want to pick a faith, (just one) as they say.  

All of the above is probably stuff you've thought of, but I'm hoping that just receiving it from someone else gives you some encouragement and "company".

 I really appreciate the way you articulated some things, especially the response to advice and agendas and the air craft carrier metaphor. I've rushed by reactions with advice given before and reading your insight I slowed down and noticed what I experienced in the past.  

Perhaps there is a divorce support group in town that you could attend right now to find real live in-person companions on the journey to give you a shoulder to lean on.

 I have spoken with five therapists all of whom say there are none around here.  One said groups have fallen out of style.  Yeeesh. I found this site through seeking and I'll keep it up.  

I'm not the most qualified person to flag you in as you try to land the plane on the aircraft carrier during a storm, but I'm waving my arms and flashlights wildly to let you know you're on the radar. You've still got plenty of fuel and you're going to make it.

I just watched the movie "Winged Migration."  Have you seen it?  On the DVD there is a feature in which they talk about making the documentary.  If you've seen it then perhaps you will understand that your metaphore is more beautiful to me than I can express.  If you haven't seen it I have a feeling you would appreciate it.  Especially where they talk about the making of the film.  It took 6 teams of people working 4 years to make the film.  The film is beautiful without explanation also.  The bigger the screen the better in this case.  I can't begin to express the sort of empathy and team work and working with the world as it is which the making of that documentary exemplifies.  They in no way confuse movement with action.  

Redundant yes and Thank you seeker.  Thank you.

Again I am too tired to spell check and since I didn't go to half of junior high nor did I go to much high school, last I was informed my spelling was at a 6th grade level....right about where I left school so in proper context it isn't laziness or lack of caring...I just haven't caught back up with where I left off.  Hope it isn't too annoying.

[guest - acappella]

Now I really can't go back and do a spell check later ...arrrrg.  Oh well, that was me Acappella in the last post.

[hope2003]

The reason your NH made you feel duplicitous is that N's are masters.  

I am sure that you can find your divorce support group right here or with another on line forum.  As you know, I am getting divorced.  I know that there are others out there that have divorced a N, and you have already seen that those who haven't divorced a N still have an understanding of the dynamic.

[annabelle]

Acappella,

Congratulations on your decision.  I don't have experience divorcing an N (yet), but am starting the process by moving out in 3 weeks - I just secretly signed a lease for my own place, to move with the kids.  I'm not filing for divorce immediately bc I want to file in the state I'm moving to, so I don't have to be stuck in the state I'm in currently.  You must be a resident in the state I'm moving to, for either 6 months or 1 year - I have to look it up again.  Anyway here are steps I've found helpful and empowering and safe................

1.  Make the decision to leave.  

2.  Tell family or friends.
 - this one is very tough, as you need to know the decision was YOUR decision, and as people have written, friends and family can be pushy, lack full understanding, etc.  And, you, only you, will be living with the consequences and new life from your decision.  Part of empowering yourself is to make the decision on your own.  Researching on the net, in books, and here on this wonderful message board, helped me make the decision more than talking to friends or family.  

3.  Accept help readily (once you tell family or friends).  
This is so hard, often - especially bc it can be embarrassing with regard to what you put up with for years (it can feel embarrassing to you, but HE'S the one who should be embarrassed, not you - easy to tell this to someone else, but difficult to follow)  I was very reluctant to tell my family, as they never liked my husband (gee, maybe they saw his behavior from the get-go and love me?!)  But, they have been soooooooooo gracious and helpful without being judgmental - i.e. everytime I tell my parents why didn't I see, etc. they say, "the past doesn't matter, just the future."  Ask for help.  Accept it.  You are not weak, just rich with resources and lucky.

4.  Talk to an attorney who specializes in family-law.  You don't have to hire one, just make an appointment for an initial consultation - even a consultation over the phone.  You need to know how the steps you take in your escape plan will affect your future rights, etc.  Again, I've found this difficult to do, bc I never thought I would be someone who would be talking to a divorce lawyer (but as my parents insist, it's not degrading or humilitating, it's smart and practical - and it's so much the norm these days.)  So pick up the phone!   If you don't want your husband seeing the phone number for an attorney on the phone bill, use a friend or family member's calling card, or a pay phone.

5.  Think of yourself first!  (What, am I speaking a foreign tongue?)  We're so unused to doing this, as the opposite is the norm in our N-relationships.  But once you start thinking of yourself, keep it up.  I've experienced so much guilt with my decision - about hurting him, etc. but I have to keep reminding myself it's him or me (and my kids).

6.  Last, but not least, come up with an exit plan without consulting him - have a complete plan, then tell him when it's a done deal that you'll execute it, or tell him once you're out the door.

Good luck, Accapella, stay strong!

Annabelle

[Alan]

http://samvak.tripod.com/5.html


In my divorce, I am following his suggestions.  We all know most Ns cannot be trusted.

And definitely get representation.

[seeker]

Hi Acappella,

I wish our list of "emoticons" had a little happy face that blushed...I'm glad you are receiving helpful posts.  

It may depend on where one lives if groups are "out of style".  They might be because people feel they are getting support on the Internet.  But our local paper lists a group for just about every issue you can think of!  My thought was that you could find a new buddy to just be with you as you gather your resources.  Anyway, it sounds as though you are rallying your resources as they appear.  You go, girl!

Why do I let his lack of sensitivity lead me to feel duplicitous about myself? I instantly felt like a fraud. My reaction is to run like a damned gerbal on one of the wheels until I die just to "prove" I am worthy of love

I'll bet everyone on the board identified with this jewel of a quote.  Ack!  "Duplicitous" is a pretty loaded word to lay on your self.  Of course you will act differently in a safe place with safe people than in an unsafe place with unsafe people.  You are not different, the situation is.  His comment isn't a reflection on your integrity, it's an attack on your integrity.  The next time a comment like that comes flying at you, just give it a good bash with your invisible baseball bat.

No one has the right to ask/force you to take drugs, have sex, break the law, color your hair, spend money you don't have, get a boob job, jump off a cliff, hold a lighter to your arm, etc etc to prove your love and/or make yourself "worthy" of another.  The N in my life is a master of "IF you love me/us/whoever, you'll do what I want."  This isn't love, it's power.  A mutual loving relationship is a win/win deal.

Anyway, you wanted help with logistics.  I was hoping some women's groups might be able to help with protecting your finances and cleaning up your credit, since I imagine many of the people they help may not have ever had credit before in their lives, etc, in addition to the pointers that are coming through other posts now.  One site I visited about abuse actually listed financial abuse among other varieties!  

Thank you for the film recommendation   I'll try to find it.  Also, since we exchanged thoughts about religion, you might like a little book called 7 Paths to God by Joan Borysenko when you have a quiet moment (later!   )  Just the introduction alone is terrific.  "God doesn't mind if you come by land or sea, by foot or train, by the appreciation of beauty, or the dedication of your life to others."  It's great at recognizing how spirituality works for/in different personality types.  I am drawing a distinction between spirituality and religion/dogma here.  I understand your earlier comments and feel pretty much the same way.  

May the Force be with you!   S.

[Acappella]

Hi Seeker,

A mutual loving relationship is a win/win deal.

Bingo.  

I need to get that win/win feeling more so I know intimately what I am aiming at and so I am less starved for the win/loose crumbs I currently subside on.  

That makes a lot of sense ..what you said about the internet possibly effecting local in-person groups.  Sittin here typing my self silly and wondering where'd every body go?      

Thanks for the book recommendation.  I'll check it out.  

Hi Annabelle,

thank you for your good tips.

I asked you in another post if you were seeking professional input regarding getting divorced/leaving with the kids and I see here in your post that it sounds like you are.  Good.  

In addition to the Nolo book recommended here I am going to look again for other groups/support where I live though I didn't find anything during my first search.  

As for your 6th point - I goofed this up.  I agree with your advice more than ever now.  I was starting to do that here on this forum.  I am very frustrated and sad that my husband has apparently read my postings....he admitted to doing so just a couple of days ago.  I don't bug his phone conversations with his family nor his therapy sessions while he was in them!  Moreover I have been up front with him anyway. I am only wanting this degree of privacy in response to his not being open.  His rules...the very game I am working to get out of.  He never came to me and asked any questions of me yet he said he started poking around because he thought I was acting strange.  His story didn't make any sense when I asked what was strange about my behavior.  Moreover, is he suggesting I was acting sooooo strange that he couldn't ask me what was up directly?  Ok, this tirade is pointless other that to say I am annoyed that I was so nieve as to be even slightly open with him about posting on a forum for support (was that nieve months ago not recently - recently I was covering my tracks better) and I am sad as I was really looking forward to getting support here and now I feel I have no privacy from him here.  He doesn't even get that the only reason I need this privacy is because he refuses/cannot be open about himself.  Arrg.