Are you Pretty?

[Brigid]

Daylily,
Your post broke my heart.  I'm so sorry your mother couldn't see the beautiful person we "see" when we read your eloquent posts.

I hope your husband married you for more reasons than just appearance.  He probably truly values the wonderful human being you are and will continue to love you no matter what.  But you need to start loving and valuing you.  I do hope you are getting some therapy or would consider doing so.  That injured little girl inside needs to be healed and you need some help with that.

((((((((daylily)))))))))))

Blessings,

Brigid

[Butterfly]

Great topic!  Thanks for the idea, Formerly Guest2.

We are all familiar with the old saying, "beauty is in the eye of the beholder".  I thought a lot about the logic behind those words.  I used to agree with it.  Now, I define beauty differently.  I think beauty is really in the eye of the beholded.  I think if you feel beautiful, then you are beautiful.  Eventually, ppl will come to see how beautiful you are based on your projection of yourself.

IMO, beauty is the radiance one projects forth from oneself.

It doesn't make any sense to me to give someone else the authority to define my beauty.  That's a lot of power to give to someone else, IMO.  Just b/c someone doesn't think I'm beautiful doesn't have anything to do with my beauty.  In retrospect, just b/c someone think I'm beautiful, doesn't make me a beautiful person, based on their opinion.  I think physical appearance is only one compartment of the whole category of beauty.  So what if someone doesn't find me beautiful.  To me, that just means he/she is visually impaired.  They can only see in parts, not in whole.  Who has the shortcoming now??

Do you give the right for someone else to tell you when you are hungry, or when you are sad, or when you are happy?  And you wouldn't feel those things until they give you permission to do so.  That's silly, right?  Now, why should we allow others to tell us whether we are beautiful or not.  Why do we need their permission to define the very essence of who we are?

GFN, thanks for sharing the story about the beautiful girl who happened to be burned.  That was qiute a beautiful and inspiring story.  

Daylily,
Okay, realistically, you feel that you are not beautiful.  And it seems to me that no matter what other ppl tell you otherwise, you find it hard to accept it.  But, could you accept the fact that we truly see the radiance that shines forth through your words?  Which is a reflection of your beauty.  That beautiful part of you that we see so much of.  IMO, physical appearance is just one small part of the whole picture.  Why let one part overshadow the rest of your beautiful parts?  It breaks my heart to read what you shared about you looking down or looking away from others, as if to think it's your fault for the way you appear physically to others and thus feel ashame about your physical appearance.  How can it be your fault if others can't see the other parts of you?  Personally, I think it's their fault for seeing only one part.  Maybe, it's them who needs to be ashamed.

Butterfly

[Formerly Guest2]

“Earn love”? Love is reciprocal. Value me and I will value you. Be honest with me and I will be honest with you. Tell me your secrets, show me your vulnerabilities – this is what builds trust and love.

INTJ - how about you?

Yes I'm INTJ.  The description for INTJ did ring true.  I do need to always  understand why.  And I married someone who not only does not want to discuss why something happened, but will not even acknowledge that it did happen!

Yes of course, you are correct about love, at least as far as I know.  But what do I know anyway?  I've never even seen a healthy relationship at close range!

I have never dared to be good looking because then I would be competing with my mom.  Now in her seventies, she is still very preoccupied with her looks and does not miss an opportunity to make comments on my or my sister's clothes, hair, my sister's weight, makeup, etc.  Not nice comments.  If they are complementary, they are along the lines of, "Finally your hair looks like something.  You must have used that product I told you about.  See?"

I feel I have never been allowed to be pretty and I am going to be old before I even get a chance.  I'm in my 40s.  I've had 2 kids and now the body will never be the same.  My husband is looking at perfect women on internet porn sites.  No one is looking at me and it seems no one ever will.   My mom is not relinquishing the title so I will never be crowned!  My husband used to think I was attractive, I thought I could at least count on that, but now even that is gone.  Drat those hoes!

I treat my body as an object and I don’t particularly value it. I have trouble with this. How about you? What messages did you get?
Oooooh Portia!   Look after your body!  Your body is not just a sack of skin carting your brain around!  It is you!  There is no big wall between your body and your mind.  They are closely joined.  Get thee to a naturalist and cleanse thy vessel!  Also, don't you like that endorphin drug you get when you exercise?  They say it is as close to chocolate as your body can make, and it's all freeeeeee!

I do not want attention from strange men.  That makes me nervous.  I do want to feel cherished above allothers by one person and admired by a few more, whom I respect, from a short distance.  Maybe I am looking at this backwards.  When I see couples where the guy obviously loves his wife, he is looking at her lovingly and touching her.   I am so envious!  I guess in my twisted mind, I think that if I were better looking, my husband would do that.  But maybe he never would.  Looks are nto the issue.  But can I please feel sexy once before I die?

[Formerly Guest2]

I was treated as an object in childhood.
Portia, what does this mean?

[formerly guest2]

Oh Daylily, hugs and hugs!   (((((((((((((((((you)))))))))))))))))

Thank you for sharing that.  it must have been so hard.  Such cruel things are done in the name of beauty.

There is so much in your post that has me in an uproar, I am not sure I can respond well.  If my post does not hit the spot, please just take away that I am feeling for you and think that all the things you think are wrong, are wrong, and many more besides.

I am not at all attractive
Don't be too sure about that.  It is amazing, but when we look into the mirror, we see what is in our minds, not what light is reflected from our faces and bodies.

she used to cry because it was so difficult to be my mother--and believe me, that was entirely about the way I looked.  Sounds like she went to great lengths to convince you that you were ugly and then blame you for not looking like...what?  Are you biologically related?   Don't you have any looks in common (not that you would want that) with your mom?  This sounds really fishy to me.  

 Otherwise, I was a pretty good deal--obedient and high-achieving.
I guess in that context obedient got extra credit.  Is it still on your list of your good qualities?

I withstood incredible bullying and taunting as a child, to the point that one little monster actually walked up to me on the playground, announced that her father said she could hit me, and did.
That little monster is probably in lockdown right now.  Let it go.

My mother would not intervene; she said I had better get used to it. This is so wrong I am not sure how to respond without using any curse words.

I am afraid of people in general, but women in particular. I believe it is only a matter of time until my husband leaves me for an attractive and fertile woman, and I can't say that I would blame him.
I have the same fear.  It has subsided some since I recognize that I feel I cannot compete with any woman because my father ignored me totally in favor of my sister.   I was angry and could not understand.   I attributed it to a mysterious invisible attraction that all women had, that I did not have.   If another woman tried to step in, I bowed out.  Even now I still feel that way somewhat, and do not even try to compete on my merits with any woman anywhere.  All I can do that I know is effective is to make my husband afraid of what I might do if I find out he cheated - leave, take everything, tell his mom - and I have had a lifetime of threats and nastiness to learn this from.  Oooops!  Back to you.

Give other women a chance.  Not all of them are faithless Jezebels who will snatch your hubby without a backward glance.  You may not realize it, but you are objectifying these women also by thinking that.  They are not multifaceted individuals with issues and strong and weak points like everyone else, but a fertile pherenome-emitting critter who will emerge from the depths of the ocean and drag down your hubby, never to be seen again.  You can tell who is who.  Get some support from your sisters!  Don't lump them all together in the gutter!

In recent years, I've also come to believe that my attitude toward my appearance has affected how I feel about medical care. I haven't been to the doctor or dentist in years, mostly because I'm both ashamed of how I look and indifferent to myself as a physical being. In other words, I find it rather difficult to take care of this body I hate so much.

Do you believe in God? In nature?  Do you think that God made such a giant mistake with you?  Did mother nature flub up in your case?  You are a woman, by definition.  You are a part of the definition of womanhood, like every other woman on earth.  You are woman!  

If you would like to start taking better care of yourself, start small.  Just do one thing.  If you can find a good Gyn, that can be a good start, and you can talk about lots of things.  Maybe that would be a good woman to trust.  Or maybe your dental issues are more pressing.  

I have the same thing.  I didn't go to the dentist for 5 years.  Finally I went and it feels so good.  The doctor and dentist don't care if you're a beauty queen.  They only care about hygiene.  Shower and brush and go.  What motivated me, was that I wanted to be healthy and live long for my children.  You can find a reason.

About the husband.   If he has not been complaining, why do you think he is going to up and split?   I do not want to be scary, but isn't it statistically more likely that once you start dressing and looking great, that is more of a risk because you are changing and your husband may not like it?  

Maybe you feel like the marriage is bogus because you did it for your mom.  Back up and start all over with the courtship.  Lure your husband to you for the right reasons and let him lure you.  Rewrite your love story. You deserve a love partner so don't keep trying to give him away!

You have a long way to go so just take teeny, weeny steps.  Get a haircut, because then you will not have to do anything new every day, such as put on makeup.    Nothing too radical.  Then make appointments with the doctor.  Then the dentist.   Buy a pink top.  Listen girl, if men can dress up and be attractive women, I know we can!

Ok I can see I'm in radical rabid fixit mode.  I'll shut up and let others speak.
Formerly Guest2

[mudpuppy]

Listen girl, if men can dress up and be attractive women, I know we can!

Tears in my eyes funny.
Mostly because its so true.

Incidentally daylily, what Formerly Guest2 wrote is true; about how you appear to yourself  may not be how you appear to others. You may only think of yourself as unattractive because that was what was drilled into your head by your crazy jealous 'mom'.
I've known some very physically attractive women who were convinced they were ugly by the sick people who raised them.
Besides as others have said, you're beautiful inside. It shows.

My wife is very pretty, but thats not why I love her. Its because she has a beautiful soul. If she were disfigured, as the gal GFN knew was, I wouldn't like it, but I'd still love her, I'd probably love her more.

Good looks might create lust.
A good heart creates love.

And no I didn't get that off of some smarmy greeting card. Sounds like it though, huh? Its so saccharine I could hardly bear to write it, but it sounds pretty accurate.

mudpup

[Stormchild]

"Adults are such cowards.  They just give me frightened looks or avoid eye contact.  They can't handle the way I look.  But children.......children come right out and ask:  'What's the mattter with your face?'.  They're so honest and not afraid to be honest. "

And they know how to see beauty, no matter what it looks like.

Daylily, you are a tall and shining angel, with wings that brush the sky and a beauty that seizes the heart. Now. Here. Already. We see it. We know it. Believe us.

[daylily]

Thanks, everybody.  I didn't mean to hijack the thread, and I hope I haven't.

By way of gratitude, or explanation, or something, here's a poem I wrote earlier this year.

Why I Won't Send a Picture

However you imagine me, I am
different. Leave it there, and think
of Julia Roberts in Valentino:
a grosgrain ribbon halving her
from smile to hem.  I’m like that
white flame between the partners
who tango, what twists and shimmies
in brazen, satisfied solitude, then
disappears on the downbeat.

I could tell you I’m Amish,
invent an elegant lie about the soul
and who can expose it.  I won’t.
Instead, I’ll tell you what happened
when I tried my wedding gown on:  
I sobbed, I have no right.  I couldn’t
wait to molt.  My mother whispered
gussets, soothed that seams could hide
under soutache.  I wore it anyway,

But I never look at the pictures.
I keep a pillow on my bed
sewn from the original sleeves
(which did not conceal enough).
Sometimes I pet the satin and think
of our graceless box step, how I swayed
toward his reassurance, how I hold
myself a little apart from him,
even now, because I want to stay
upright when he proves me wrong,

or right.  Either way, I seem to fall.
Look, if you must have an image,
at anything that twists away
from what tries to hold it:  a flag
and its pole, a child and her mother,
a war and its soldiers.  I will write
tomorrow, send you a list of ten
books I love.  It will have to suffice
that I'll tell you everything about how I see.

[mudpuppy]

Daylily,

That was not written by an ugly woman.
It was written by a very beautiful one.

mudpup

[Bliz]

Day Lily,

I too am tormented by your mother's treatment, the way you were treated at school etc.  I hope you will take all the caring that is here and lock it inside your heart to give you strength everyday.

I believe beauty really is an attitude.  It is not always about the right dress, face, hair, makeup.  I can see it in myself.  When I feel confident I glow. I look like a whole nother person when I am scared, down, depressed, angry.

 I hope you will start letting that light inside you shine to others and yourself.  I think you will more see the beauty that you have and also see more beauty around you.

As striver for fitness,  I hope you will tend to yourself with the right doctors, dentists etc.  They can help with confidence by assuring you have health which will also make you feel better about yourself.

[Formerly Guest2]

Thanks, everybody. I didn't mean to hijack the thread, and I hope I haven't.
Yes, go ahead and take the thread.  Take it wherever.  I liked your poem.  Tell us if you do anything like get a haircut or buy a wonderbra.  Tell us your outrageous stories so we can shout down your mom and cancel out her malignant influence on you.  (If that is ok with you.)

Whaaat!  My new name is uncreative?  If you must know, I was going to be "the poster formerly known as guest2" but it wouldn't fit in the box.  So now I'm thinking.  Sea snail?  red-eyed tree frog?  caiman? so many possibilities.

Until I feel my real muse, I remain,
Formerly Guest2

[Anonymous]

mudpuppy, what's wrong with you , there ain't nothing wrong with the name "Formerly Guest2".  I could become crocodile or alligator if you would like .  Isn't GFN an acronym for "Guest for Now"?

daylily, my heart really goes out to you.  I don't know if you are pretty and just don't realize it or if you are not, however I do know that you are beautiful, and beauty which is more than skin deep is so much better than just being pretty.  Like GFN I've known people who were disfigured from accidents.  I volunteered as a teenager in a rehabilitation hospital where people who had accidents stayed for months to get therapy.  The courage and self-worth of some of the people there were a total inspiration to me.  We love you ... just the way you are .

LM

[Anonymous]

Hi all:

Yes, go ahead and take the thread.

FG2............generous, sharing.   More signs of beauty.

I mentioned this in the other thread but maybe I'll double mention for the heck of it!!

How about the name:  "Spunky"???

It means:  spirited and is an informal synonnym for brave.

Daylily:

That was a lovely poem written by a lovely woman.   It makes your beauty so much clearer.  

...how I swayed
toward his reassurance, how I hold
myself a little apart from him,
even now, because I want to stay
upright when he proves me wrong,

or right. Either way, I seem to fall...

Sway back Daylily.  Hold closer to him, not apart.  Big question coming up.   Answer if you feel comfy, if not, that's ok.

Has he given you reason not to trust him?

GFN

[Formerly Guest2]

How about the name: "Spunky"???
It means: spirited and is an informal synonnym for brave.

Also for other things!
I think I'll keep looking.
Plucky doesn't sound too bad.
I'll try it out.

Plucky

Hmmm.  A bit peterpannish.  But cute....

[Original Guest2]

FG2............generous, sharing. More signs of beauty.

Thank you.  I am storing up all the nice things you all say in my heart.  They replace the holes left when I stop pretending that my childhood was normal and rip those experiences out and discard them.

People were talking about touch on another thread.  Does anyone remember whether or how much they were touched (good touches) by an N parent?   I can remember my father touching me only at the end of our summer visit when I basically forced him to hug me.  My husband never touches me.  If I didn't have kids I'd never get a hug.  I can't help feeling repulsive.   Has anyone ever had an affair?