Author Topic: Once an Angry Man  (Read 6608 times)

Resolution

  • Guest
Once an Angry Man
« Reply #15 on: June 15, 2005, 02:23:40 PM »
Mudpup

Yes you're right, I didn't have any tin lids with this woman and yes again, it was easier for me to disengage as she was not a family member. As to whether my parent(s) were N's.....I'm not so sure that they weren't....maybe boarderline......he was a total shit and a bully to boot!

Anyway, I get the gist of what you're saying and agree that not 'one size, fits all' as a solution. I do however have a controvershal view with regard to the dynamics of a Nacissistic relationship, be it parent or partner. I believe that the person with NPD only exists in a relationship (over time) because their spouse or partner insists upon it. And I don't think this really varies much whether it's a parent or lover...I really don't!

I've read and listened to many people over the years on the subject of NPD and most of the time, I hear and see the same thing jumping up at me. Namely the victim, the spouse, complaining about the persecutor, the NPD'er, doing what they're doing to the Victim! And always I ask......why do we, they, I, actively participate, engauge, in this activity? In the full knowledge of knowing what absolute shits these people with NPD are, why do we time and again seek to re-engauge with them? Because in some form, we need them!

Without us, the person with NPD can not inject their poison. They can't continue to destroy our lives. So I dissagree with you mudpup on this issue. I believe that having indentified sufficiently that your family or partner has NPD, you must remove yourself from the situation, immediately! To stick around only encourages them to hurt you more. And in deciding to stick around, you are deliberately giving them the green light to do it to you!

I know what I write sounds easy, but is so hard in real life. I know what I've written has been so by many before. But once we identifiy the peak of our summit and have past it.....then what I wrote previously applies and is the only way forward for us all!

Anonymous

  • Guest
Once an Angry Man
« Reply #16 on: June 15, 2005, 02:40:05 PM »
Quote from: Resolution
I believe that the person with NPD only exists in a relationship (over time) because their spouse or partner insists upon it. And I don't think this really varies much whether it's a parent or lover...I really don't!


The person with NPD had these problems before meeting the partner, and will have them after the partner is gone. However, if you're saying that within a relationship, the narcissistic-victim dynamic may continue due to the victim tolerating it, you are right.

Quote
ask......why do we, they, I, actively participate, engage, in this activity? In the full knowledge of knowing what absolute shits these people with NPD are, why do we time and again seek to re-engauge with them? Because in some form, we need them!


I would amend this to, "because in some form, we need to replay the drama".

bunny

mudpuppy

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1276
Once an Angry Man
« Reply #17 on: June 15, 2005, 02:56:53 PM »
Hi Resolution,

I'm not sure we disagree on much of anything really.

I have chosen to completely cut off contact with my brother and don't really see any other way, so I endorse your solution.
And what you say about allowing them to inject the poison is true as well.

The problem is our brains and our consciences. They are so easily manipulated and conditioned that for someone who has been trapped in a relationship with an N for a long time it becomes hard to even understand there is any other life than being victimized and trying to either get it to stop or change the victimizer. It seems to be the essence of codependency and denial.
Quote
I believe that having indentified sufficiently that your family or partner has NPD, you must remove yourself from the situation, immediately!

And this seems to be the nub of the prob. Until someone knows what NPD is none of their life makes sense. They usually see a pattern of pathologies that are just confusing and inexplicable, often fooling the victim into thinking he is to blame for the pathologies of his persecutor.
The victim, thinking in a somewhat rational, cause and effect way, says to himself 'if I do A then the perpetrator will do B like a normal person would'.
When that doesn't happen and the domineering member of the relationship does C instead, and does it in a rage, blaming the victim for his rage, it is utterly discombobulating. Only until someone understands what is truly going on in an Ns mind can a logical framework be put on it.
Once that occurs then I agree the victim no longer has an excuse not to take steps to remove themselves from their persecutor.
But the time it takes to disengage and the length of time the effects of the damage remain will vary greatly between individuals.

One other point is, a lot of people have parents or partners with less severe manifestions of Nness, so complete disengagement may not be warrented in those cases. They may feel they receive more from the relationship than it costs them.

Sorry your parents, especially your father, were such buttheads. I'm glad you've attained this level of freedom from their influence.

mudpup

Anonymous

  • Guest
Once an Angry Man
« Reply #18 on: June 15, 2005, 10:21:32 PM »
Quote
I believe that the person with NPD only exists in a relationship (over time) because their spouse or partner insists upon it.


Yes, when the spouse or partner doesn't know fully about the dynamics of narcissism.

Quote
In the full knowledge of knowing what absolute shits these people with NPD are, why do we time and again seek to re-engauge with them?


I don't know if this is true. I think most people here, who have the 'full knowledge' do not engage with our exNs. We've learnt not to.

jophil

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 83
Once an Angry Man
« Reply #19 on: June 16, 2005, 01:20:25 AM »
I agree that when we become aware of the extent and depth of the NPD's disorder we are then well placed to choose to connect with them in a limited way or not at all.
However,the issue is not as 'black and white' as the Poster suggests . The issue is smeared and clouded by several factors. NPD is not a disorder which either exists or it does not. Like all diseases it can be found in varying degrees and all N's have some symptoms from very mild right thru to very severe. Most people who marry an N do not understand what they are dealing with for these reasons.
The idea that we can just walk away from an N is naive. Even if we could, the damage that was inflicted upon us does not go away along with the estrangement.
I agree that the victim( if an adult) does have the choice to stay and play, or walk away. However what are we to say to children who have N parents?
 
If this problem had an easy solution we would have found it -

mum as guest

  • Guest
Once an Angry Man
« Reply #20 on: June 16, 2005, 01:31:52 AM »
Quote
I think most people here, who have the 'full knowledge' do not engage with our exNs. We've learnt not to.


True, and then some of us have "disengaged" only to be brought back into some engagement again and again because of shared children with an N.  I think Mudpup hit on something here a while back....
I can disengage emotionally, and do so with great effort regularly...but:

Quote
However what are we to say to children who have N parents?

yes, there's the rub: what do I say to my children, about their N dad who has legal rights to see them?

You are right, Jophil,  if it were easy, we would know the answer already....

Resolution

  • Guest
Once an Angry Man
« Reply #21 on: June 16, 2005, 07:08:47 AM »
I'm working at the moment to design a method of assessing an individuals N score. Of course we all have Narcissistic traits, but I feel that this could be put together and better understood in a form of psycometric test. This would enable individuals to have a more definitive and graphic understanding of the person that may or may not, have NPD.

Consider it based upon 7 topics with each having a 0- 100 bar graph. I'm designing twenty questions per 7 areas and these scores would be cumulatively added to a final score out of 100. I'm using the DSMV4 criteria as the bases of my headings.

Lets say whilst they score very high out of two of the 7 headings....over 90 percent, but relatively normal, say 50 percent, on the rest. Adding everthing together, would give a final score of beneath 90 percent, say....70. This would mean that they're quite Narcissistic, to the power of 2, but not suffering from NPD. Armed with a better break down of what the two headings they scored over 90 percent in means, would again give the victim a better understanding of what life is going to be like with this person.

The end result of this is an attempt to show and individual whether they are dealing with someone who has NPD or just scores quite high on the scale. It will be a system that doesn't entail the participation of the targeted person....it can be completed by the victim so to speak. It will better explain and give answers to a great many people who are searching for answers and thus remove speculation.

Are we dealing with a bastard/bitch, or are we dealing with NPD? There's a big difference and one that needs greater clarification>

jophil

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 83
Once an Angry Man
« Reply #22 on: June 16, 2005, 09:48:25 AM »
What is the difference between a bastard/bitch and NPD that needs clarification? It seems to me that they are all are destructive.

Brigid

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 793
Once an Angry Man
« Reply #23 on: June 16, 2005, 10:04:56 AM »
Resolution,
I think that knowledge of what conditions someone is dealing with, with another individual certainly has its benefits.  When my T told me that my xH was an N it turned on a light for me and started me on a journey to an eventual understanding of the man who had so abruptly left me.  However, the knowledge can only go so far in helping me and will never take away the fact that he is the father of my children and for the rest of our lives, we will be connected at some level.  

Most of us here already know that we were dealing with n personalities.  I think most of us have disconnected from those who we can and have limited contact with those we can't.  While I think an assessment tool might be useful for professionals, I'm not sure that it would make a great deal of difference for those of us in the trenches.  It still comes down to how we heal ourselves from the affects of the relationship, how we deal with the relationship into the future, and how to avoid any further n love relationships as we move forward.

Brigid

mudpuppy

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1276
Once an Angry Man
« Reply #24 on: June 16, 2005, 10:28:31 AM »
Hi Resolution,

I'm just bein a smart ass, but what are you going to do, get down on one knee and say........
"Will you marry me? Oh by the way I have this test I'd like you to take so I can tell whether you're only a bastard/bitch or a real case of NPD?"

Seems kind of hard to work it into the conversation.

Maybe you could use it as an icebraker at parties....
"Hi I'm  Resolution, would you like to take my 'Are you just a bitch or a total flaming lunatic' quiz?"

Sorry, not trying to offend. The concept just brought up some amusing visuals. Amusing to me anyway. :?

***************
Jophil,
 
Just a suggestion, but I have a feeling a long rant to disgorge some of what you're holding in could possibly do you a world of good.

Take care all.

mudpup

mum

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1036
Once an Angry Man
« Reply #25 on: June 16, 2005, 10:31:53 AM »
Hi, Resolution.  Just trying to figure out what your idea is: Do you think these people would "take" the test if we say: "I would like to find out if you are simply a bastard or if you have a personality disorder.  AND I would like you to be honest when you take it."?
Highly unlikeyl.  And if we (those who know them) give our ideas on what the scores are....how valid is that?

Brigid: like you, having N explained to me, as what my ex is.....really helped ME.  HE will not go to any therapist, as why should he? There is nothing wrong with him....just the rest of the world!

Portia

  • Guest
Once an Angry Man
« Reply #26 on: June 16, 2005, 10:39:53 AM »
Hi Resolution, I think this is of limited value, but it's on the net and being used. Have you seen it? I think it's for fun, unless you want to take it seriously :wink:

http://www.4degreez.com/misc/personality_disorder_test.mv

Btw the last time I did this (ages ago) I was everso mildly Schizotypal which didn’t surprise me. What the heck. :D

Resolution

  • Guest
Once an Angry Man
« Reply #27 on: June 16, 2005, 10:56:05 AM »
Lol, very funny Mudpup  :lol:

On a serious note though, so many people want to know: is he...are they...is she...etc. There seems to be a large number of troubled souls guessing at what is or isn't the case in their circumstances. Being able to successfully profile the person at the center of their problem will I hope, give some definitive answers.

The victim answers the profile questions, not the person who's causing the grief. Profiling individuals for jobs is something that happens all over these days. Change the criteria to that associated with NPD will not be that difficult to do and should lead to some positive results.

As to the difference between being a bit of a bitch/bastard.....this doesn't mean that being one means that you have NPD. There is supposed to be about 2/3 percent of the population with NPD. To my experience, there exists and damned site more bitches and bastards than that  :)  My point is that coping with the aforementioned is far easier than coping with a person with NPD. NPD is super league material whilst being a bastard is somewhat less. At best they're a younger version of full blown NPD waiting in the wings!

Also a number of people are reading into bad behaviour coming from a person and immediately labelling them with NPD. Often this isn't so, and I'm convinced that many people are ending their relationships because others convince them quickly over the net that their partner has NPD when they don't! This is something I haven't seen on this site but have on a number of others. On these, people are very quick to hang rather than listening and learning!

So a profile is something that you the victim would complete without ever asking any questions from the person concerned. You would answer them with the full knowledge of what you've experienced from them and it would be you who'd complile the report by totting up all the answers.

For those of us who've been their and done it so to speak.....it would just be confirmation of what we already know and feel. But for those unsure who are constantly seeking assurance....I think it could be the platform by which they could decide things with confidence.

longtire

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 564
Once an Angry Man
« Reply #28 on: June 16, 2005, 12:19:50 PM »
To be fair, I think any N profile test should also contain a self-evaluation for co-dependency. :)  I have been thinking about the earlier question in this thread about why we stay  or continue to choose relationships with people who act this way.  There is the obvious that people who have NPD/BPD, etc. are expert manipulators and suppressors/liars.  However, in the light of knowledge, enough clues get through the cracks in their defense that it is OBVIOUS to us in hindsight what has been going on for so long.  The clues are there, we just aren't aware of them at first.

I think there are two reasons why WE didn't see see these problems with our N's/B's earlier.  The first is that we weren't looking for them.  It has been discussed on other threads here how society and relationships operate from an assumption of honesty.  That is why lying is so effective.  If we haven't been taught or had to learn that some people lie regularly and don't seem to suffer any conscience about it, then we don't look for it because we are not aware that it is a common possibility.  Once learned, it is a lot harder to suppress awareness of these problems in others, though it can still be done. :) :( Suppressing is more difficult long term than not being aware of it at all in the first place.

The second reason is that we may actually be seeking people who act this way, even if it is unconsciously.  This has also been discussed here in other threads.  We seem to have a drive to repeat situations from the past to "solve" them or find ways to fix them.  If nothing else, this behavior may seem so "normal" that it doesn't raise any red flags to us.  If that is how you were treated growing up, or you never learned to value or stand up for yourself, you may tolerate this behavior because you don't expect any better.  Hope for better maybe, but not really expect or demand better treatment.

To really escape from the cycle of getting involved with people who treat us badly, it seems like we need both pieces.  As others have posted, it is not enough to be able to recognize an N if the unconscious drive to be around them keeps us unaware of it to try to work out those childhood issues.  That can actually lead to serial N relationships.  It takes both pieces working together to really break this unhealthy cycle.  So, it seems to me that the damage done to us by our caretakers when we were young was the failure to teach us to take care of ourselves, both by spotting unhealthy people and by expecting and insisting on good treatment from others.  In some cases, people were actually taught that they DIDN'T deserve good treatment from others or that EVERYONE acts this way, so there is no use looking for anything else.

This to me is the core of the damage that was done.  It was not the neglect, harsh words, physical abuse, emotional abuse, or sexual abuse.  Those things hurt, but were "only" the symptoms.  The REAL betrayal came in not teaching us to expect good treatment and to be unaware that not everyone we meet would be able to treat us well.  Parenting that did not lead to us learning to insist on good relationships and spotting bad ones was flawed.  It doesn't matter as much how far over that line the abuse or neglect was.  It could be an inch or 1000 miles over.

The good news is that whether is was an inch or 1000 miles over the line, there are just two things to learn to heal that damage.  I am not minimizing the hurt, pain and the hard work of facing all the abuses from the past and moving through them.  That certainly may be worse for someone 1000 miles over the line than for the inchers (like me).  It also may be harder to see the line if you are 1000 miles away than only an inch.  Stepping back over the line into what we TRULY deserve is the same in both cases.  It is the journey to that point that is different.  I think that is why we can all share our experiences here and have it feel so relevant, even when our background differ so much.  It is the same journey, different paths.  I'm not sure if this is profound, but if feels that way to me.
longtire

- The only thing that was ever really wrong with me was that I used to think there was something wrong with *me*.  :)

Portia

  • Guest
Once an Angry Man
« Reply #29 on: June 16, 2005, 12:21:07 PM »
Quote
mildly Schizotypal

Correction! mildly Schizoid :shock:  Still am :D but only mildly.

Actually on a revisit, that test isn't as daft as it might be. And if you want to spot your potential axe-wielding Sociopath (is that more dangerous than a Narcissist?), this could help.