A string of unfulfilling relationships...

[Plucky]

Hi Selkie,
I've been away and just read most of your thread.  I wanted to respond perhaps before I thoroughly understand because I am concerned that you have been hurt, and that you are not sure whether you will return to be hurt again.

Most of us up here on this board can relate to your issues.  We all have been taught that we do not deserve true love and a healthy relationship, that our self worth depends on whatever sick relationship we can get, that if we reject the screwed-up 'love' we have we will not have any love at all.

While many of us reject that message intellectually, it is very hard to reject it emotionally.   That takes time and repetition.  Maybe as many times and for as long as we took to learn it in the first place, namely, our entire childhood.

I want to tell you what on some level you altready know to be true, but cannot believe it, cannot feel it in your heart.

You deserve to be treated with care and compassion.
You have qualities that many others can appreciate.
You have not done anything wrong.  You are not a bad person.
Your ex is an abusive person who only wants you because you allow him to abuse you.  That is not love.
You will find love from friends and others out there when you look in the right direction.
But that love is not necessary, because you wil learn to love yourself, and that will be enough, if you choose.

Please don't go back for more.  Hasn't he been clear what he is about?
Plucky

[mum]

(((((Selky))))))
Wow, you have been through the ringer. I just read your update on this thread, and your other questions about what is an N?

One thing struck me for certain: when I was married to my exN, he often twisted my head around so awfully, that I thought perhaps he WAS a victim of me....
But the truth is NO ONE in a healthy relationship does that stuff to either party!  Sure people disagree and get angry, but love, true love does not pull the kind of abusive stuff your ex has. And it is very clear that he has twisted your head to the point of thinking....what? that you deserved to be assaulted?

Drama, that need for it, (in my experience) only meant I was not aware of what true love really looked and felt like....and was a sure sign that I did NOT love myself.

I will echo what plucky said: what you are experiencing IS NOT LOVE.
Love will only come to you when you begin to love yourself.  PLEASE get away from the predator....love yourself enough to see what life might be like if you loved yourself...catch a glimpse, please.
Stick with therapy.....get involved in your own life...without the drama of men...or all the men will share similar qualities (or you will find them boring...also not love).

Bless you.  Keep posting, and let us know. I'm cheering you on (on the road back to YOU).

[write]

a narcissist is totally vulnerable: not in a way they understand or construct like the rest of us do through relationships, but the n doesn't 'get' what makes a relationship work. They've come to understand relationships through their early life experiences and abusive situations- that life and relationships are a form of competition, a battle, and unless you win...you might not even exist.

For them it's a fight to the death.

I think I understand now- whenever I engage with a narcissist- to replay my own childhood- I can't ever find fulfillment or acceptance through that relationship because whilst I am ready to concede my difficulties or weaknesses...a narcissistic personality has been conditioned not only to fear such concepts...but they don't exist within them.

Whatever the conditions which produce a npd...the last thing on the agenda is honesty and a real human response.

So I have been round and round in circles trying to connect- with someone who can only view me as a weaker person, or else a threat.

The only thing I can do right now is withdraw from romantic relationships, and build myself up so that I am no longer vulnerable, I'm happy to be alone and have a strong sense of myself.

I believe I attract npd people ( or other personality disorders ) because I am so conditioned to bridging the gap between what I want and what actually is...
where other people would walk away as soon as the situation seems wrong or abusive, I stay and try and 'put things right'.

But that's not love. All of a sudden I understand myself and my situation.
I've so often ( because of my childhood and later experiences ) seen love as a form of suffering...

I need to take some time out and adjust to a new way of relating where everyone is on the level and looking for the same thing.

And I have to accept a period of mourning for all the horrible relationships, and a period of being on my own for a while.

[Sallying Forth]

Hello All,

Well here I am, two months later at the end of this relationship.  It has been a roller coaster of a ride which resulted in me being physically and sexually assaulted.  This only happened last night so I am still reeling.  I have phoned my counsellor and she is phoning me back to make an appointment to see her.  The only reason I am going to go to counselling is that I am not sure I can keep away from this man on my own because I still love him (I am addicted to him rather) and I know I will crave him when the dust settles.

I'm so sorry Selkie.  ((((((((((((Selkie)))))))))))

I've been through coercive sexual assault numerous times with my h. I do know the pain and confusion that brings.

The only way out is through knowing yourself, trusting yourself but first finding your true self. Then you will not be attracted to men like this and best of all they wont be attracted to you.


Again, I'm sorry you've been these horrible violations.

[Chicken]

Hi All,

Thanks so much for your responses,

write:  I am glad you understand where I am at.  Yesterday I was very weak, confused and distraught, today I feel like I am a lot stronger.  I know for certain that I will not return to this man, I can't say that I won't crave him.  I am just not there yet, but I am beginning to understand the gravity of my situation.   
I know I have what it takes to pull through this and find the kind of love I know I deserve, it will take a lot of research, counselling and thinking and maybe even crying!  I have never recieved the proper kind of love, and it all started in my childhood I am sure of it.  Manipulation, punishment etc is something I'm incredibly comfortable with, the sexual assault I experienced two nights ago was "my punishment" (in his words) for my behaviour.  It made me feel sick because I felt like a child again.

I too, equate love with suffering, my relationships have always carried a great deal of anxiety, so much so that when If i am in a relationship, I am afraid to book a weekend away for fear i may be on one of my downward spirals when it would come around, and then I wouldn't feel like going.

Thankfully, this disease has not spread into the friendship department.  I have been blessed with countless good friends all along the way throughout my life, friends that I can count on and who love me and care about me deeply.  There is never any complexity within my relationships with my friends, and I thank my lucky stars for that.

Mum:  The messed up thoughts! (as you spotted on my other thread!) -now this is where I am going to find it most difficult in my recovery.  I am still very confused.  I don't know where i end and he begins!  I'm not sure what are his traits that are projected on to me and If I am doing that to him or who owns what or who is what, I don't know if I am the one who has caused this, yet!  I will come to the bottom of that.  I have a feeling we might both be that, I don't know. 
This kind of twisted thinking thing is part and parcel of these kind of relationships though (which is very evident in Spyralle's thread about her exN) , that's why they are so head-wrecking!

write: I generally take a long break in between relationships.  I cannot even bring myself to look at another man unless the one I have is out of my system, I am just like that by nature.  So I am have a long open man-free road in front of me now, to get cracking on what it is that you are doing... 

Sallying Forth: The sexual assault is a first for me.  I have experienced physical abuse in previous relationships.  I am definately going to bring this one to the attention of my counsellor (she returns from holidays on the 15th)
Two nights ago, as well as raping me, he began by pulling my hair so hard that my head still hurts two days later! I remember misinterpreting that as passion!  In the past when he behaved in a controlling way, I found myself happy because this proved that he loved me.  All this messed up stuff.  I need the counsellor to tell me what love really is.   

Thanks again for all your replies!

[spyralle]

(((((((((((((((((((((Selkie))))))))))))))))))))  I really feel for you so much....  By the sound of it your parents are the same as mine.  Narcissistic mother and withdrawn father.  I too have been in a series of damaging relationships, with people that allow me to re enact my childhood stuff over and over, each time thinking that 'this time it will be different'.  Of course our hopes are always shattered in the end....  and still we blame ourselves and try to make some sense of what happened with completely "twisted thinking".  You are so right about that.

I was in therapy a few years ago as I was training to be a counsellor and had to be there as part of my course.  Of course I came to realise then that perhaps my family were not as 'normal' as I had always tried to make them out to be.  I was in a relationship with another N at the time.  He once kicked me wearing the new boots I had bought him and then wandered off singing.  Anyway to cut a long story short my therapist asked me "What would he have to do to you to make you see him for what he is"  I wasn't able to answer that question....

Like you, I gave up on therapy.  I reckoned that I had pretty much worked out why I did what I did but that didn't help me stop doing it....  So I thought I would work on my problems myself...  It is now 10 years later and you know the story.  I was really glad to read that you had decided to go back into counselling.  I have too only this time with a different therapist.  This time it's a woman.  She asked me yesterday what had attracted me to my ex.  That was a really hard question for me...  He is certianly not Brad Pitt!!!  I had known him a long time and had always thought he was an arrogant *****r..  But I remember having a conversation with him one day and something just clicked in my head, then off I went into oblivion...  It seems that that was the time when I recognised him as something familiar.  Imagine being able to stop at that point and simply say "No thanks".... 

Selkie, everything you say is so familiar to me...  One of the many things I am learning here is that this sort of twisted thinking exists and how it happens.  Before I just thought it was so...
The sexual assault is a real worry.  I so know where you are coming from when you said that you misinterpreted it as passion... Please sustain your strength in not succumbing to his calls.  I badly know the feeling of wanting them so badly.....

Write said:
a narcissist is totally vulnerable: not in a way they understand or construct like the rest of us do through relationships, but the n doesn't 'get' what makes a relationship work. They've come to understand relationships through their early life experiences and abusive situations- that life and relationships are a form of competition, a battle, and unless you win...you might not even exist.

For them it's a fight to the death.

That makes a lot of sense to me when I think about my ex that is exactly what it was like.  If it's a fight to the death we need to get out of the game xxxxx

I was talking to my therapist yesterday about real love.  She said it was a place where you could just 'be' ....Imagine that xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

Spyralle x

[Chicken]

Hi Spyralle,

your post was so touching and apt that it brought a tear to my eye.  I honestly believe that with each bad relationship we are having, it brings us further to the truth, and forces us to deal with our undealt with issues.  You got to learn the hard way I suppose or else we wouldn't learn or listen at all.  It seems we both brushed our issues under the rug for far too long.  I know your situation has gone on for so much longer and thus your mountain to climb is going to be far bigger and loom for far longer than mine.  It will make you a stronger person at the end of it.  The relief you will feel when you are free of this weight will be immense. 

my therapist asked me "What would he have to do to you to make you see him for what he is"  I wasn't able to answer that question....

God, that's really amazing, because I would reply "He would have to be violent with me" as I know I wouldn't return if it escalated to that, and that would be my way out.  I am relieved that he was violent with me in a wierd kind of way as it helps me not to look back.  It's a shame I would stay up until that point though.  Why would I settle for everything but the final physical blow?

Like you, I gave up on therapy.  I reckoned that I had pretty much worked out why I did what I did but that didn't help me stop doing it....  So I thought I would work on my problems myself...  It is now 10 years later and you know the story.  I was really glad to read that you had decided to go back into counselling.  I have too only this time with a different therapist.  This time it's a woman.  She asked me yesterday what had attracted me to my ex.  That was a really hard question for me...  He is certianly not Brad Pitt!!!  I had known him a long time and had always thought he was an arrogant *****r..  But I remember having a conversation with him one day and something just clicked in my head, then off I went into oblivion...  It seems that that was the time when I recognised him as something familiar.  Imagine being able to stop at that point and simply say "No thanks"....  ....

This really brought a smile to my face!  I suppose this is what I want to achieve from counselling in a nut shell.  I will be honest with you, when I met this guy, which was only two months ago, (but it feels like a year ago as the relationship was so intense and progressed triple the time it would take for a normal relationship to progress) I knew he was bad news.  As you can see from my first post on this thread.  At that point the addiction was there.  I could have said "no thanks" but I went right ahead and you know the rest. 

I really think it would be amazing if I could say no to someone like this from the onset.  I would be so proud of myself.  I do think these people will always be a temptation for me, they will always come knocking at my door just to test me to see if I can still abstain.  I really liken it to alcoholism or some other form of addiction.  It's something I will have to learn to live with. 

Please sustain your strength in not succumbing to his calls.  I badly know the feeling of wanting them so badly.........

It hasn't started yet, I think it's because he is trying to contact me so bad.  When he finally gets the message and the dust settles and the phone stops ringing, then I'm sure the self doubt will begin and I'll second guess myself and my decision.

I was talking to my therapist yesterday about real love.  She said it was a place where you could just 'be' ....Imagine that xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx.........

    I try to imagine it, I can't help but think there would be some catch, but that's because of my experiences.  I know true love exists, it would be amazing to have some

xx Selkie xx

[spyralle]

Hi Selkie,

Isn't it good to read stuff from other people that makes you feel less alone with your problem.  That is how I have felt posting here.  Just to know that people have actually experienced the craziness and are still around gives me hope...

Your relationships sound just like mine have been.  Dive stright in and just get lost in the intensity of it all.  It's like being covered in magic stardust.  Once you are in the stardust you close your eyes to everything except those wonderful feelings.  The ones that tell you that this is the right one and that this time it really will work out.  Whilst posting here i have realised that there were massive warning flags for me which I just brushed away because the intenseness was overwhelming.  My ex said everything that I needed to hear.  He also exposed his vuknerability, which is like a drug to me.  I would be the special one who would make it right for him.  When a found out he was married a few weeks into our relationship, he wrote me a letter.  What I took from the letter was the story of a lonely little boy who had been abandoned by his mother and the rest of his family.  He had been married three times.  In my head none of these women understood him like I did and none of them could ever love him the way that I would.  Actually I should have read that he had walked out on three wives at a whim, had three children two of whom he doesn't see and had left nothing much but devastation and a string of debts in his place.

So my thinking was already pretty crazy even before he went to work on me.  On the night he gave me the letter, I told him everything about myself.  I kept nothing back at all.  i basically gave him all the ammunition he needed for the next three years.  And even as I'm typing my brain is trying to convince me that in reality he was a nice person.  At the beginning of this thread you talked about your vision of being crushed.  It's that feeling of knowing somewhere and just ignoring it that i think is the key.  There needs to be an antidote to the stardust and I'm sure that is within us somewhere.

I would so love to just be....  The catch for me is I'm not sure that I know how to....  You are right about there always being a catch.  i guess with a narcissistic mum there usually is one...

You are right about the phoning too.  You are strong enough not to take his calls because he is calling....  it seems to be that validation that we need that we are worth calling.  Even if it is from somebody sick and twisted.

Keep believing...

Spyralle x

[Passing By]

In answer to one of your earlier questions, Selkie, the most paramount purpose of going to therapy is to develop a healthy relationship with yourself.  In my opinion, all of our relationships in life reflect and point to how we feel about ourselves.  And so, you might find, as you go through the process of therapy, deeper and clearer truths will be revealed to you about how you perceive life, love, relationships, men, women, et cetera.  All of these truths play and important part in how you operate in your life.  I am talking about something deeper than, I don't like myself very much or I don't feel I deserve love.  I believe most of us would be shocked if we were ever to really discover what we truly believe about our  selves and other peopel.  The unconscious prejudices and preconcieved ideas that rule our life.  In fact, I will say to you that if you feel bored or distracted in therapy or that it is not working, that in fact, it is in deed "working" because it is stirring up feelings in you that are uncomfortable.  If you are used to being treated badly, it is very hard to determine what is going on using your feelings, because a lot of times we are so disconnected from the way that we feel that we cannot get a grip on whether we're coming on going.

So I think the most important things to do now is not to leave this man alone, or get yourself out of the relationship or try desperately to figure out what's wrong -- I think it is to feel.  Feel exactly what you are feeling right now.  Look at it.  Decipher is.  Try to determine where it is coming from.  What are it's routes.  Dismantle yourself, and you will begin to see the core of your problems.

Best of luck

[vunil]

Hi, Selkie--

I just discovered your thread and was really confused in the beginning why everyone kept calling you chicken!  I thought everyone had lost their mind or Selkie meant chicken in some language I didn't speak or something. 

Anyway...


When you mentioned how talk therapy seems to just go over the past, I thought of something that in the end seems really true to your experience-- one of the benefits of therapy is that you can catch your reactions as they happen in the relationship.  So, your therapist can work with you while you go through the seduction, preabuse, abuse, then return stages.  It's really helpful to have that.  Something about the cycle of abuse is so addictive it's hard to intellectualize later (or admit to!).  It's interesting that you seem to seek out therapy only for the bad cycle of the abuse, not for the intoxicating "fun" cycle-- I did the exact same thing!  Therapy seems unnecessary when things are going well (or really "well" because it's just part of a bad cycle).

Have you read about the cycle of abuse?  On-line there's tons of stuff on it, and there are a lot of books. I recommended one to some others: Men who hate women and the women who love them.  Yes, awful title, but it is a classic exploration of this cycle.  I have been in it, and you just got out of it (I hope!  You may jump back in-- let's hope not).  It is very compelling.  Of course, it's not compelling at all to someone who has not suffered abuse as a child and who has a healthy idea of how all this works.  Alas, we weren't all that lucky.  My parents actually planted the cycle in my psyche by beng rejecting and then loving, rejecting and then lovng.  Until there was the utter rejection and abuse, then unfair punishment, I wouldn't get the attention and "wooing" and love as we had our "reconciliation."  The only time I got attention was in the midst of some Crisis and Pain.  And always the transition from rejection to affection was based in nothing real, so I had no idea how to "make them love me"-- it became a compelling fantasy to try.

Sound familiar?  Probably it does   Anyway, now is the time for reflection and reading.  You have an addiction, and luckily there is a lot of research on the addiction.  With your therapist you can get through this, but no more flower-crushing men for awhile, ok? 

And to answer your first question:  You aren't in the remotest of remote likelihoods an  N.   I don't know if he is one, but he is likely one, and he is something worse:  an abuser.

[Brigid]

We seem to be back to the recurring theme of the "bad boys."  Why is it that those of us who were raised by n parents end up being so attracted to these edgy, dangerous and seductive men?  That is actually a rhetorical question, as I have pretty much figured that out in therapy.  For those of you who still are attracted to the bad boys, I am a testament to the fact that good therapy can cure you.  I used to think that I would never want those nice guys in my life for anything other than friends--that he must have an element of danger in order to instill passion and chemistry.  WRONG!!  Now that I have my head screwed on correctly (at least for the most part), those bad boys are now just that--bad boys who are bad for me and anyone else they come in contact with.  Now that I am healthy, I attract men who are are healthy and we are attracted to each other.  It has been an amazing epiphany for me and I am so happy with the new and healthy me.  My therapist is also amazed and pleased with my progress and I think will soon be kicking me out of his nest to fly on my own.

Have faith, find strength and courage, continue with therapy, take advantage of other support networks if possible, lean on your friends when needed and keep posting here.  You are wonderful, beautiful women who deserve to be loved by someone who is worthy of you.  I keep you all in my prayers.

Hugs,

Brigid 

[vunil]

Wow, Brigid-- congratulations!  I would love to feel confident I was in your place.  Being very pregnant means I don't attract anyone but I'm hoping when I get out there to attract (and be attracted by) nice men.  What a wonderful gift that would be.

[Brigid]

Vunil,
Well, sweetie, you get to look forward to the love of a baby for now, and you're going to love that.  My babies are all grown up, but I look back on that time with such fondness. 

The good news is, those great guys will still be there when you are ready for a relationship.  I hope you can find a really wonderful one to help you raise that beautiful baby you are going to have.

Many blessings,

Brigid

[vunil]

Wow, Brigid, thanks! And I'll transfer this wish to Selkie, too.  Wouldn't it be nice for all of us to have companions we aren't ashamed of and that our friends don't hate   Ones that don't make us want to post here about all the b.s. they pull on us daily.  That would be peachy.  Just visualizing it makes it seem more possible.

[bunny]

My therapist is also amazed and pleased with my progress and I think will soon be kicking me out of his nest to fly on my own.

Congratulations on your progress!

If therapists kicked patients out when they got better, the patients would backslide and get worse, so they wouldn't be punished for improving. And therapy is useful even when things are better. Have you ever mentioned to your therapist the idea that he's going to kick you out of the nest?

bunny