N parent's message to their children-

[October]

October, do you witness now and not intervene, or speak out?

portia

Yes and no. I try to intervene, but not very successfully.  I do not have a lot of power with my brother, but what I have I try to use as best I can for the boys.

[switzerland]

see below

[Anonymous]

Whatever you do, you must refrain from getting into a fight with them because that is exactly what they want and need. So, don't do it. Just let it roll off of you

I can't seem to master this yet.  

Although I do exercise more restraint now when compared to the past.  

Mia

Hi Mia,

Don't be sad, and don't get mad.

Try this technique:  When someone is nasty to you, first, you ask yourself:
"Does this nasty person really KNOW me?"
If it is an N, then, the answer is always going to be "NO" because they don't have the capacity for really knowing another human being since they can't even see themselves clearly. Right? Are you with me?

Then, you remind yourself that the nastiness directed at you is NOT personal because someone who doesn't even know you really cannot hurt you. Trust me on this one.  Its true!

Then, you should notice the tightening of their facial muscles.  Then, imagine that their other cheeks (down below) are even tighter. If you do this correctly, you should be chuckling a bit at this point, and feeling relaxed and joyful. (remember: feces=gifts. they are trying to hold it all in!   )

For added effect, you can also remind yourself that the nasty person is reacting out of their ancient reptilian brain.  I like to imagine that the nasty person has a crocodile head, and that he is just snapping away his jaws at anything that moves in front of him.  Nasty people are not using their higher and more evolved mammalian brain which is is where empathy, compassion, and other humanistic qualities lie.

Hope everyone can make good use of these techniques i have created for dealing with nasty nasty people in the world.  Whatever you do, never put your hand in front of their face. The croc jaws will snap. And don't try to wrestle with crocodiles unless you have been professionally trained.  

Stay cheerful!
Switzerland

[Portia]

I don't understand. What just happened here?

[Portia]

Hi October, apparently (I’ve been reading again), one of the most effective ways of helping children who are abused is to be a ‘helping witness’. If you try to intervene, thank goodness for you. You could be the one good factor that helps those boys learn (later when they think about it, hoping they do) that they don’t have to do what was done to them.

A helping witness is there to let children know that their fears, their anger, their confusion is valid. That beating children is never for their own good, that it’s wrong and that the abusing adult is making a mistake. If a child can see that another adult sees the child’s point of view, it can make that vital difference.

And in making that difference, you’re shaping the future for better. You have that power! I wish you luck with them. It must be very painful and difficult for you having been an abused child witness yourself...

[October]

A helping witness is there to let children know that their fears, their anger, their confusion is valid. That beating children is never for their own good, that it’s wrong and that the abusing adult is making a mistake. If a child can see that another adult sees the child’s point of view, it can make that vital difference.

Thanks, Portia.  I think I know how important this kind of witness can be.  Some time ago - maybe 2 years - I had a t who didn't believe what I said about when I was small.  He discounted it all.

So I rang my aunt.  My mother's sister.  I told her about this, and I said that I needed someone who was there and who saw it all to say simply, yes, these things did happen.  There was violence in this family and I saw it.  There were behaviours which were not appropriate, and this is what they were.  I said, perhaps a letter, or a phone call.

She refused to help.  She said it was a long time ago, and that my mum never did anything to her ( ) and that she didn't want to get involved.

I haven't spoken to her since.  The following Christmas I sent her a card, and inside I wrote that I am not ashamed of my mother, because she can't help being as she is.  I am ashamed of her, because she had a choice, and she chose not to help me.  But most of all I am ashamed of myself, for asking for help.

I am not going to be like this.  In relation to the boys, I make a point if I visit of always finding them to say hello, and finding them again to say goodbye, and giving them a kiss.  (Except the middle boy: we shake hands because he prefers it.   I try to spend time finding out what they are doing, and joining in for a while too.  And I sneak in cuddles when I can, though.)  I haven't seen them for a while.  Must go visit again soon.  They are such lovely boys.

[Anonymous]

S

thank you very much for the technique

Mia

[Portia]

October, I remember this i think from way back when you talked about it? It rings a bell anyway, or I could be delusioning myself about that

She refused to help. She said it was a long time ago, and that my mum never did anything to her and that she didn't want to get involved.

I wonder what your mother didn't do to/for her. Good grief. Mustn't go raking over old ashes, thinking about childhood for goodness sake. Better brush it under the carpet. Button our stiff upper lips. What FEAR these people hold. Don't want to get involved indeed. It's this sort of incredible obedience to the social norm that has people just following orders. I know it's not their fault. I know they're only protecting themselves from thinking about their own childhoods. i realise she is very fearful of the wrath of some parental figure. But education and knowledge do not destroy people. Ignorance is not bliss!

I'm sorry October, for her denial about your past.      
Do you think your feelings about this aunt and her denial may have been triggered here? Just occurred to me, could be wrong.

I sent her a card, and inside I wrote that I am not ashamed of my mother, because she can't help being as she is.

i don't imagine she (aunt) can help it either though, do you? Not on her own.

I am ashamed of her, because she had a choice, and she chose not to help me.

She may not have had a choice. Her own past may be tragic too. It's possible?

But most of all I am ashamed of myself, for asking for help.

You weren't really though, were you? or were you? I'd be a variety of emotions but not ashamed, I don't think, not sure?

I am not going to be like this. In relation to the boys, I make a point if I visit of always finding them to say hello, and finding them again to say goodbye, and giving them a kiss.

Good for you, good for you October. Giving them respect. I applaud you here. Whatever you can do, it matters so much. We can fight against endless repeating of the past.

[Portia]

Hi Mia and switzerland

And don't try to wrestle with crocodiles unless you have been professionally trained.

I think becoming aware of and cleaning out the effects of being raised by N parents, or being manipulated by an N partner, counts as professional training.

Those who have been brainwashed to feed the crocs and now know how to avoid them are probably in a darn good position to educate and protect others from the effects. Just my opinion.

[October]

Those who have been brainwashed to feed the crocs and now know how to avoid them are probably in a darn good position to educate and protect others from the effects. Just my opinion.

There is a story about the Buddha that I read somewhere (sorry, forgotten where) which tells of how he met a starving tigress one day, with her cubs.  She was so hungry that he gave himself to her to be eaten, in order to save the lives of this tiger family.  So she ate him.  

I think this is the kind of level of sacrifice that N parents would regard as only right and proper.  But to anyone else it is rather extreme.  

[jophil]

"Brainwashed to feed the crocs" - what great saying Portia.
I was thinking about how 'regular folk' would interpret a lot of what is written on this forum. I think that they would never even begin to grasp what WE understand instinctively by your statement above.

Johnimo

[October]

You weren't really though, were you? or were you? I'd be a variety of emotions but not ashamed, I don't think, not sure?

Yes, I am ashamed of asking for help.  That is the N/perfectionist in me.

She should have been able to say no without me overreacting.  That is also Nish behaviour on my part.  And I ought now to be able to forgive and forget.  I may do this later in the year.  C is due to get confirmed, and I will invite this aunt.  Perhaps that will be one way to move forward.

[longtire]

"Brainwashed to feed the crocs" - what great saying Portia.
I was thinking about how 'regular folk' would interpret a lot of what is written on this forum. I think that they would never even begin to grasp what WE understand instinctively by your statement above.

"regular folk" = "blissfully unaware" vs. "regular folk" = "deliberately unaware"
I can understand that someone who didn't have to learn these things to survive would not go to the trouble, so I can make some allowances for the first.  They usually come to understand more as they get more information.  The second is people who convince themselves they are unaware because they are afraid to face the truth.  Like October's aunt.  I don't have a lot of sympathy for people who take this selfish approach.  Part of my brain realizes that they are just afraid and take this approach to protect themselves.  Ironically, it renders them unable to have true relationships with the people closest to them.

[Plucky]

Don't want to get involved indeed. It's this sort of incredible obedience to the social norm that has people just following orders. I know it's not their fault. I know they're only protecting themselves from thinking about their own childhoods.

This makes me so, so angry!  I'm not buying it.
About eneryone on this board who was victimized by an N in childhood, was done so with the implicit approval and help of an N-abler.  These are shilly-shally, spineless, self-preserving wimps who did not have the decency or couldn't be bothered to stand up for a child.  And I have no use for anyone who can't think for him/herself.

October, your aunt falls into that category.  Even now, when you HANDED to her an opportunity to make up for it, and belatedly give you the support you rightfully should have had as a helpless child, she denied it?  I am not going to make any excuses for her.  Unless she is so incapacitated that she is on the verge of being committed, she could have been honest with you.  What did it cost her?  

If all of us can overcome what in some cases was horrific abuse, and extend ourselves to help others, she could have done that one little thing for you.

You ought to be proud that you gave her that one last chance to be human.   She flunked the test.  Off with her head.

A steaming
Plucky

[Anonymous]

Some random thoughts....

-- Sometimes intervening when a parent is abusing a child results in the parent taking it out on the child later. It's a very dicey situation, and I don't have a good answer for how to handle it. Sometimes showing the parent some empathy for the difficult time they having is the way to go. (hard as that sounds!)

-- When someone approaches a family member to confront them about the past, it is very likely that the confrontation will result in denial and more traumatization. This is really, really, really tragic. That is why I almost cry thinking about the NHS in England and how crappy it is, that people don't have access to decent mental health care and are forced to "Do it yourself" methods that retraumatize them. {{{ October }}}

bunny