why is talking so emotionally and energetically expensive?

[munsterlander]

Voicelessness has characterised my life.  As a child I remember wondering why everyone seemed to speak so much, where they got the energy from.  I still feel that way.

When others talk, they just seem to sit back and let their mouths do the work.  When I talk, I am working hard, thinking, listening, watching, reading reactions, walking on eggshells.  When I talk I am in the lions den, visible, fearful of what the consequences could be.  It is exhausting beyond belief and is a problem that doesnt go away.

Thinking of how I never learnt to have a voice, I have to go back to the fact that my mother was narcissistic, physically and verbally abusive, unable to hold a conversation with me that didn't become a judgement and criticism session.  Her energy was demonic.

So here I am, an adult, with a severely damaged life, trying to manage in the world with no voice, no safety net, no energy.  How do I learn the skills others learn as kids?  

My partner thinks I am lazy because I find a day at work the most deeply, brain destroyingly, draining and exhausting experience.  Its hard to explain that I have to energy to walk miles with my dog, but a day spent in an office with no voice, attempting to look as though I have one, is almost unbearable.

I don't really know where I am going with this thread, but that this idea of voicelessness is central for me, and goes hand in hand with my chronic fatigue and general life issues.

Thanks for reading

[mum]

Welcome.  First of all, I have almost the opposite problem: I talk too much, or at least I've been told (not so much recently, though).  That might have come from being the youngest in a big family and yelling above the din!  I have always been rather envious of people who I supposed were mellow, thoughtful and measured in their speaking.  I got a handle on my "over talking" when I started healing some insecurities in my life...I realized a lot of what I did was just nervousness.  I haven't lost my exuberance, however.....I just don't care so much what people think.  And you know what?  They think I'm confidant.  I am.
One of my sisters is very quiet and shy.  But she is confident as well, in a much quieter way.  We just have different styles that we learned to embrace.

Do you feel that YOU want to talk more, or that other people want you to?
If you don't want to, I just wouldn't worry about it.  If it is demanded of you, do you want that kind of job?  I guess I am not sure if you WANT to be different and that is causing you anxiety....or if the frustration is in not wanting to talk so much, and being required to do so.

My partner thinks I am lazy because I find a day at work the most deeply, brain destroyingly, draining and exhausting experience. Its hard to explain that I have to energy to walk miles with my dog, but a day spent in an office with no voice, attempting to look as though I have one, is almost unbearable.

Well, this just isn't very nice, to be called lazy by your partner.  You obviously write very well, and you seen to be able to express yourself well here!  That doesn't seem "lazy" to me.  You obviously care a great deal.  Lazy people don't care.
I have all kinds of energy for my dogs, too, because they don't ask anything from me, they just give me unconditional love.  A physical activity with a loving, "happy to be alive" critter, is FAR more energy replenishing, never mind not draining, than working all day.  Who doesn't understand  that???

So, two things: if you want help to change, consider therapy.  A good therapist would love an articulate patient like yourself.  And it wouldn't be too hard to talk, because, well, you will be talking about this very thing.  Pretend you are writing, you do that very well.

Also, perhaps you are in the wrong job, or work environment. I am a career teacher and do very well, but I have had teaching jobs that were pure hell, because of the environment/people/administration,  and surprisingly enough, the lousy husband I had at home!  Maybe you need another job/partner?

Just a few thoughts. Hope you keep posting.

[October]

Voicelessness has characterised my life.  As a child I remember wondering why everyone seemed to speak so much, where they got the energy from.  I still feel that way.

When others talk, they just seem to sit back and let their mouths do the work.  When I talk, I am working hard, thinking, listening, watching, reading reactions, walking on eggshells.  When I talk I am in the lions den, visible, fearful of what the consequences could be.  It is exhausting beyond belief and is a problem that doesnt go away.

Thinking of how I never learnt to have a voice, I have to go back to the fact that my mother was narcissistic, physically and verbally abusive, unable to hold a conversation with me that didn't become a judgement and criticism session.  Her energy was demonic.

If your experience is the same (or similar to) as mine, then the reason for this might be your external focus.

When you have an N mother, you learn to focus on what she needs, in order to keep her happy.  It is like feeding a giant; you have to feed them first so that they don't eat you.  When they are happy and fed, then you eat the crumbs that are left.  But you can never afford to think, what do I want, what do I need.  And your mother is not thinking that either.

So nobody ever shows you how to look after your own needs.  You are taught instead that thinking of yourself is selfish and not acceptable behavour; you are there to look after everyone else first.

It is likely in this case that you spend your time at work, whether consciously or unconsciously, tuning into other people's feelings, solving their problems, making them tea, looking after everyone and helping keep things calm and smooth.  I would imagine you are very popular and sought after by anyone with any kind of problem; very good at what is called active listening; not so good at talking about your own needs.  

Strangely enough, this is not normal behaviour.  It is not pathological either, but it is pretty rare.  And it is exhausting.  The secret, if there is one, lies in boundaries, and in learning to say either no or not yet.  If people make demands on your time, you can ask them to come back later, or to try other avenues first.  You can ask them to think of ways to deal with whatever it is themselves, rather than rescuing them.  Lots of stuff like this.

You may never have been taught how to do this, and it is not easy to learn, but it can be done, bit at a time.  I hope so, anyway, because I am on the same kind of path myself.  And not very good at it.  

[Plucky]

Hello munsterlander,
thanks for coming here to share your very eloquent voice with us.
Others have given very good responses that I would echo, especially, how much do you have to talk?  And who decides how much you ought to talk?  Should be you.

My partner thinks I am lazy because I find a day at work the most deeply, brain destroyingly, draining and exhausting experience. It's hard to explain that I have to energy to walk miles with my dog, but a day spent in an office with no voice, attempting to look as though I have one, is almost unbearable.

Maybe your partner is not happy about not getting more of you.  You are exhausted after working and just need a break, but your partner wants to interact and you have nothing left.  Your partner might be jealous that work is getting all of you.

Either your partner is just missing you and wants more of you, or he/she is someone who is not sensitive to your needs and more or less using you to satisfy his/herself, just as your first N did when you were young.

Perhaps you can work out a length of time you have to yourself after work to walk the dogs and recharge.

This board and a therapist can help you sort that out and develop skills, one at a time.  The important thing is not to rush yourself or berate yourself for the rate at which you develop skills.  As someone here told me, it will develop when you are ready, not when you want it to.  The first step is to acknowledge that you have work to do.  After that step, take a rest, then go on to the next step.

Good luck and come back to talk again.
Plucky

[write]

*you don't enjoy your job
*your partner isn't being respectful
*your confidence is very low
*you have an illness which depletes your energy

When I talk I am in the lions den, visible, fearful of what the consequences could be.

maybe you're talking to the wrong people! Look for people who will actually listen to you and treat you with understanding. Maybe a therapist, or a chronic fatigue support group, and definitely keep posting here- people will definitely listen to you here.

[Anonymous]

Welcome munsterlander,

How do I learn the skills others learn as kids?

Therapy with a good therapist. That's what they do.

My partner thinks I am lazy because I find a day at work the most deeply, brain destroyingly, draining and exhausting experience.  Its hard to explain that I have to energy to walk miles with my dog, but a day spent in an office with no voice, attempting to look as though I have one, is almost unbearable.

I wish he/she would abstain from pejorative terms like 'lazy' as it doesn't help anything. Obviously he/she doesn't understand that you are extremely fragile, vulnerable and over-sensitive to stimuli. A therapist can help you here, too.

bunny

[hey_dahl as guest]

Wow, munsterlander, this could have been written by me! Thank you for putting it so well....

Voicelessness has characterised my life.  As a child I remember wondering why everyone seemed to speak so much, where they got the energy from.  I still feel that way.

When others talk, they just seem to sit back and let their mouths do the work.  When I talk, I am working hard, thinking, listening, watching, reading reactions, walking on eggshells.  When I talk I am in the lions den, visible, fearful of what the consequences could be.  It is exhausting beyond belief and is a problem that doesnt go away.

Thinking of how I never learnt to have a voice, I have to go back to the fact that my mother was narcissistic, physically and verbally abusive, unable to hold a conversation with me that didn't become a judgement and criticism session.  Her energy was demonic.

So here I am, an adult, with a severely damaged life, trying to manage in the world with no voice, no safety net, no energy.  How do I learn the skills others learn as kids?  

I wish I could give you sage advice on this, but I can't, because I too am trying to learn the skills that others learn as kids. In fact, I think after 3 years of weekly therapy, I'm probably at "teenage" level now. But I can sympathise completely.

Every Monday when I come home from therapy, my partner is always eager to hear about any breakthroughs that I've had. But talking about it in therapy is "safe" (I've paid my T to listen and not criticise!), and talking to my partner about my thoughts and emotions isn't necessarily safe (at least in my wounded heart). So at home it's like pulling teeth for me to talk about my emotions, when 2 hours earlier in the safe therapist's office, I was able to be really open. Opening up actually hurts, I guess because I've been closed up so tight in a protective ball for so long.

It's very hurtful for my partner that I can't open up, that I put up a protective wall, that it takes so much effort for me to talk. He's very talkative, so I'm sure it's hard for him to understand. But, like you, it's incredibly stressful, and I have to know that I'm in a safe place before I can relax and try to open up.

The other problem is that even when I tried to open up, I couldn't access my thoughts and feelings. In fact, it really felt like I didn't have any. I had gone so long ignoring my own thoughts and feelings in favour of others, that I had completely suppressed my own.

Like you, I became an adaptor, a "pleaser", and would adapt whatever I said to whomever I was speaking. I never developed any opinions of my own. My N mother and my ex's and everyone around me dictated my opinions.

I said it out loud last night, finally, that I can count my own original ideas on my fingers. It made me cry, but it also inspires me to work harder at developing a Self, a Voice.

I'm not sure how to do this exactly, probably something about taking time for yourself and taking enrichment classes, etc. But I've started to think that writing is the best therapy. It's a forum to express your voice, without interruption. And you can choose who you share it with. You can read it over and over again until you're confident about what you believe. You can keep it secret if you're afraid to bare your thoughts.

I dunno, perhaps this is why so many people on this board (like you!) are such eloquent writers. Maybe it's where we feel safest?

Anyway, well done for expressing this so well, and perhaps you can take comfort in the fact that as you wrote your post, you came another step forward to finding that voice!

xoxoxo
hey_dahl

[Anonymous]

My h and I have agreed not to tell each other what happened in therapy unless we want to. We do NOT regularly ask the other person what happened in therapy, how it went, etc. Therapy is deeply personal, private, and a partner can mess it up by intruding into it. Boundaries are needed. This is my experience for what it's worth.

bunny

[jophil]

Hey Munsterlander, you are in the right 'country' right here.

OK here is what I did on one occasion when I felt 'voiceless' ( small, helpless, unworthy,lesser,overwhelmed,vulnerable,passive --etc)
The situation to which I am about to refer was overa particular issue that I was having with my mother who cares not one wit about my opinions, welfare, fulfilment or happiness. She had a really irritating habit of interrogating me about a particular thing of a personal nature. When she did this she was over the line but she does not 'get' boundaries coz she is NPD.
Anyway, I was sick of her questions so I decided to 'zap' her with a well rehearsed line when she started in with her insufferable questioning.
I did not have to wait too long. She started giving me the third degree one day about a personal issue and my reply was," If I thought it was any of your business I would discuss it with you." I could hear her gasp over the phone line and she started getting all steamed and attacked me with everything that her feeble psycho brain could dredge up. I knew that I had her going  - it was so cool to hear her thrashing around like a garden hose that had just popped off the tap. She froze me out for about three weeks and then called me as if nothing had happened..!

My 2 cents...Johnimo

[Brigid]

hey_dahl,

I dunno, perhaps this is why so many people on this board (like you!) are such eloquent writers. Maybe it's where we feel safest?

I think you are very correct in this.  As a child, my father always criticized everything I said and over time I became more and more uncomfortable speaking up.  Putting words down on paper is safer because I can think about what to say and how to say it without just blurting it out.  It can also be altered and rewritten until it is the way I want it.  I never just write and send.  I must reread it several times, make corrections and finally build up the nerve to push "send."  Even after sending, I go back and reread it several times to be sure I said things correctly.  I wouldn't say I am an eloquent writer like so many people on this board, but for the most part I am a very careful one.

I know that I have returned to a long-learned childhood habit of mumbling rather than speaking up. I had gotten much better for most of my adult life once I got away from home and the constant criticism, and in fact, did quite a lot of public speaking.  But after my xh left me, my confidence level dropped considerably and I returned to that habit of being afraid of saying the wrong thing.  I am now working to get my voice back.

Thanks for pointing this out.

Brigid

[idiosyncraticWONDER:)]

munsterland ... why the name... is taht german?
i know german:) mais je suis un ami:)

anyways sounds like u been gettin some pretty good insights here...
i liked several including one by october that i pasted at end here

i might add that there could be many aspects of our culture
that is superficial and does not want to be known as that
and just as narcissists kind of intuitively pick up
someone who questions
and tries to turn them on themselves
rather than deal with their own issues
but dont have issues as much in terms of the culture
as they have bought into it some aspects of it
and can feel productive..
not to say that there might well be some
good positive dynamics of a culture that are worthwhile
adopting
.. it can be a very mixed cultural bag tho...
an aspect is when the other force:)
NOT THE FORCE OF COURSE...
has a way of thinking they are interested in your insights
and end missing post of your points
and turning the ones they supposedly got
against u
and then if u question this
try other buttons to push to hold u down to conform...
hmmm such as some group seminars on mind dynamics
like est or dr phil... hmmm let me find a link on that...
here it is
http://72.14.207.104/search?q=cache:E6eBA5vofG0J:www.bitchpanic.com/shack/archive/media/oprah.shtml+dr-phil+seminars&hl=en&start=7

in non google link form it is
 http://www.bitchpanic.com/shack/archive/media/oprah.shtml

i welcome u officially to the ranks of true idiosyncratic
nonlinear thinking

ah but
one can neglect to various degrees
developing proper boundaries
and i think some of the boundary development suggestions
here were interesting:)
..in other posts in this thread...

Voicelessness has characterised my life.  As a child I remember wondering why everyone seemed to speak so much, where they got the energy from.  I still feel that way.

When others talk, they just seem to sit back and let their mouths do the work.  When I talk, I am working hard, thinking, listening, watching, reading reactions, walking on eggshells.  When I talk I am in the lions den, visible, fearful of what the consequences could be.  It is exhausting beyond belief and is a problem that doesnt go away.

Thinking of how I never learnt to have a voice, I have to go back to the fact that my mother was narcissistic, physically and verbally abusive, unable to hold a conversation with me that didn't become a judgement and criticism session.  Her energy was demonic.

If your experience is the same (or similar to) as mine, then the reason for this might be your external focus.

When you have an N mother, you learn to focus on what she needs, in order to keep her happy.  It is like feeding a giant; you have to feed them first so that they don't eat you.  When they are happy and fed, then you eat the crumbs that are left.  But you can never afford to think, what do I want, what do I need.  And your mother is not thinking that either.

So nobody ever shows you how to look after your own needs.  You are taught instead that thinking of yourself is selfish and not acceptable behavour; you are there to look after everyone else first.

It is likely in this case that you spend your time at work, whether consciously or unconsciously, tuning into other people's feelings, solving their problems, making them tea, looking after everyone and helping keep things calm and smooth.  I would imagine you are very popular and sought after by anyone with any kind of problem; very good at what is called active listening; not so good at talking about your own needs.  

Strangely enough, this is not normal behaviour.  It is not pathological either, but it is pretty rare.  And it is exhausting.  The secret, if there is one, lies in boundaries, and in learning to say either no or not yet.  If people make demands on your time, you can ask them to come back later, or to try other avenues first.  You can ask them to think of ways to deal with whatever it is themselves, rather than rescuing them.  Lots of stuff like this.

You may never have been taught how to do this, and it is not easy to learn, but it can be done, bit at a time.  I hope so, anyway, because I am on the same kind of path myself.  And not very good at it.  

[NOT SO WONDERFUL]

OH MY ME
R REALLY GARBLED SOME PARTS
OF MY LAST POST..
BUT IFN ONE HAS A QUESTION
AS TO PARTS
I MIGHT TRY TO UNGARBLE UPON REQUEST....

[Munsterlander]

Thank you all so much for your thoughtful replies to my message.  I'm quite overwhelmed by the spontaneous generosity everyone has shown.  Its just not what I expect.

The whole issue of narcissism is so confusing to me.  On one hand, every negative element in my life seems to go back to my Nmother, and then I think - hold on, if I was moulded by an Nmother, what does that make me?  Is there such a thing as a flipside narcissist? One whom has been so bled dry by the narcissist, that you end up as a kind of ghostly, almost invisible person?  If so, then this certainly was me, although I have begun to put some 'meat' on my personality now.  And then alongside the chasm of anger inside me at my mother, there is also a sort of compassion, in that I really don't think she is capable of being any different ((there's me as the 'adult' looking after my spiteful-little-girl mother)) and because narcissists are created through terrible neglect; though here I have turn my feelings back round again, because surely she didn't have to enact some of the wantonly cruel things she did.

But to get back to the original point about voicelessness and how hard it is to talk, I think October hit the nail on the button talking about how we externalise our focus onto the needs of those around us.  I watch reactions so intently and with such trepidation when I am talking to people that I should have a doctorate in the body-language of judgement; my focus is all on looking for negative reactions, like, "she's bored" "she doesn't like me at all" "my tension is making her nervous" "what is she seeing!!?" "she thinks I'm weird!" "she doesn't want to be around me!".  No wonder I find it hard to talk to people whilst trying to appear to be relaxed!

I think in the end, I would totaly agree with the point that loads of you made about therapy.  A few years ago I was in a therapy group for 18 months, and apart from getting sick of hearing myself trotting out stories about my mother to impress everyone with what a cruel bitch she was, I found that the simple act of speaking intimately in front of other human beings without my world falling in was hugely confidence inspiring.
I hope to find another group before too long.

Thank you again everyone for your warmth.



munsterlander


p.s. idiosycraticWONDER:) munsterlander is the breed of my beautiful dog  

[idio wonder]

as to munsterland question  

Is there such a thing as a flipside narcissist?

what some consider the flipside
is sometimes called an inverted narcissist
or a compensatory narcissist
but i suspect those names were hatched by a narcissistic plot
to take the heat off of narcissists:)

they are very clever that way

but more to the point perhaps
the flip side type does tend to be attracted to narcissist
perhaps in large part
coz narcissist know how to seek out
over eager beavers to please others
who they think have potential  to provide them
with sufficient supply of... oh my ...what...

some of those so chosen
might early on begin to see the hidden dangers
but often n's know how to break their spirits
and make them doubt their earlier insights
 by harping  on either their real weaknesses
or convincing them that their strengths are actually weakness...
i tell u it is thing to behold
a narcissist tearing down another
for the n's glory..
nut preferably not as i
the youngest who she choose to be
the heir apparent after dad failed her in her eyes...
coz it might all seem well and wonderful at first
but  
once ma saw me as not coming up to par for her
.. i had not developed the independent type resources
dad had from his family...
of course she was always right
and the problems were all dad's fault

fortunately tho there was something that i picked up on
that kind of kept a nose for the source...
my sisters tho i  think still
in many ways be under the sway of skewed values
as injected my ma

so in review..not really
narcissism some say is one of the 3 personality disorders
the least amenable to treatment..
i think the other 2 could be psychopath
and borderline
?

[October]

I think October hit the nail on the button talking about how we externalise our focus onto the needs of those around us.  

Thank you again everyone for your warmth.

Blushing now.       I think the next time a t asks me how I am feeling I am going to reply 'I haven't the foggiest, but you are confused/bored/irritated/whatever seems most appropriate.'

Might be easier than attempting archaological dig within the remains of my own emotional ancient monument.