landmark

[vunil]

Ok, I'm huge, bitchy, pregnant and on bedrest, so against my better judgment I am going to ask about something that may hit a nerve or two.  But here goes:

In the past 6 months or so, a friend of mine has been going to these "Landmark" seminars.  I think it is a cousin (or grandchild) of EST and it is a later version of the Forum. 

Anyway, after the first session she has brought a lot of folks to subsequent sessions (they encourage this, I hear), and has spent a lot of time in all-day sessions, and evening reading groups, and stuff like that. I understand all of this is expensive.  But none of that bothers me-- it's her time and her money.  There are several things that do worry me, though:  After the first session, she seemed really disoriented and manic and made no real sense (to me at least).  I was learning about N and was getting a lot out of that, and this group, and my reading, and tried to talk to her about it and she kept saying that it was just a "label" and I needed to "recode" things.  I nicely told her that the opposite was true-- I needed to face things, and the label was helping me do it.  Recoding things got me screwed up in the first place-- not really facing the truth.  She said there was no objective truth.

Ok, so now here is my big concern.  Something in the language of those seminars, in their inclusiveness (in part because no one else can figure out what in the heck they are talking about), has made my friend oddly N.  She is an old, close, friend, and has not spent much time with me at all in the last months, and has not been very responsive to my health problems. I'm fine with that, and have tons of support, but it is noticeably out of character for her (everyone is different, but she used to be very sensitive and giving).  Also, she has scheduled so many of these long (12 hours sometimes) seminars that it's impossible for her to do anything else.  And her treatment of the seminars are that they are immovable-- I had to arrange my baby shower around them for her because it was clear she would choose the seminar over the shower.  Which hurts my feelings but more than that seems... odd. 

Now maybe this is just a phase.  But I am worried.  She can be very insecure and I am afraid they are preying on her, telling her that (1) they are her real friends, and (2) landmark is what makes her more special than other people.  I got the impression that's what they do after her first meeting, and I get that impression from friends who know people who have been involved in this. In the meantime, they take her money.  And she is losing a lot of her self-- just acting oddly and removed from the world, and potentially now in need of them to prop her up.

Anyway.  Hope I haven't bothered anyone by posting this.  I guess watching poor Tom Cruise in his craziness and N arrogance (given to him for only hundreds of thousands of dollars by scientology) got me a little scared.  These groups can have real hold over people.

[mum]

Vunil, you are not just being pregnant and bitchy, you have a legitimate concern for your friend. I agree, anytime someone says all the answers to life are in ONE place for EVERYBODY, they have lost touch with reality (especially if they argue about what is personal truth....geeeezzz). But it is her time and her money, and unfortunately, more sh** she will have to deal with when the house of cards falls.  I would only recommend that you keep your compassionate feelings for her obvious vulnerability, and keep your distance if at all possible. Are you a little resentful that you rearranged your baby shower over her new found zealousness?   I might be.
I have a friend who I am fully aware is N, or at least has a huge tendency to be. I keep aware of what she is up to....and this has made her almost transparent to me. Anyway, yesterday I told her my fiance and I will be getting married on a certain date, and she said "No! You can't do that.  I will only have been back from my vacation for a week, and I can't be leaving again!!  You have to change the date!"  I started into explaining why we chose the date and then stopped myself! I don't need to explain anything. It's my life, my choice, and when I got a little distance, I laughed about it.  What a jerky thing to say!!  I know it came from dissapointment, but it immediately mutated into...."lets see if I can control this person to suit my needs."

 

[vunil]

"No! You can't do that.  I will only have been back from my vacation for a week, and I can't be leaving again!!  You have to change the date!"

That is hilarious!  It would be tough not to laugh.  In my current state I would probably say something like "oh!  Did you think we were planning the wedding date only around your schedule?  I'm so bummed you got that impression.  No, actually, we were planning it around a bunch of stuff, including our own needs and a bunch of other people, too.  I'm sorry if we were confusing about that."

The weird thing, my friend isn't N in the least, or never has been.  I don't think it's that she was and I didn't notice-- I think she is genuinely a great person, just insecure sometimes and not aware of her greatness-- prone to being blue, depressed, blaming herself for stuff that isn't her fault.  Somehow this whole thing is making her act N.  Which is scary, because we all know from our loved ones and friends how seductive that defense mechanism is, and how hard to ever break out of once it settles in.   Take an insecure person and give them the N bug and they may never get over it.   It's such a great way for them to cover up their shame.  I know from experience-- in my youth I did it sometimes, too.  (cringe)

[Moira]

Hi all! Curious to know what exactly is this "Landmark"?? Does sound cultish. Definately sounds like they are exploiting vulnerable people. A crutch is a crutch, a " god" is a " god", a drug is a drug.......Is this brainwashing for bucks? What allegedly is your firend getting out of this- what are the "promises"? Whatever it is sounds not overly healthy- whether it is or isn't malevolent is besides the point. I'm not convinced "they've" turned your friend into a N. I'm " assuming" that your friend was flailing around for some kind of life raft so whatever she is desperately seeking " they" seem to fill that void. Catch you later! M

[dogbit]

The weird thing, my friend isn't N in the least, or never has been.  I don't think it's that she was and I didn't notice-- I think she is genuinely a great person, just insecure sometimes and not aware of her greatness-- prone to being blue, depressed, blaming herself for stuff that isn't her fault.  

I did the EST thing many, many years ago and it appealed to me intitially because it seemed to promise to make me more confident and strong.  But even then, I saw the cultish side of it.  In fact, I definitely think it was/is a cult.  We were supposed to really put ourselves down before we could truly appreciate the "teachings".  For example, one exercise was to walk around the room declaring out loud that we were dog sh&%.  Heelllooo!  Very scary.  I walked out.  This was in Boston, early "70s.    I think your friend is in trouble and it sounds sort of narcissistic in that if you don't agree with them, then you're out.  But they took a lot of  time and trouble to intimidate people into agreeing with them before they kicked them out....sorry this is very rambling.  I hadn't thought about Werner for quite some time.  Wonder how he's doing now.  I think he eventually had a lot of legal problems.  

[vunil]

I am not sure, but I get the feeling Landmark is a little more new-agey than EST was.  They do have this deal where you aren't supposed to leave the room during the sessions.  And they humiliate people who do, if I remember correctly (I was having trouble following her when she described it).  And there is a lot of "facing the truth" that to me just sounds like people are tired and food/water-deprived after hours of this bs and they break down.  The break downs are supposed to be a big part of it-- they go in front of the group and have a revelation, and cry.  Not that people can't have revelations.  But after one day?  And everyone having them at the same time?

They encourage people to call people in their lives and apologize for the "interpretations" they have had of things that the people did.  But the funny thing is, what they are really doing is calling and telling the people what they are mad about.  E.g., "I'm sorry that I interpreted that you did X as meaning you were being selfish toward me."  I have no idea how the family/friends respond to this weirdness, but I do know that when my friend's family didn't "get it" that was more evidence (according to the leaders) that they hadn't come as far as my friend had.  It's this weird combination of tearing down and building up, combined with this "everything is under the control of your mind" stuff that is sort of true and sort of not true-- it can be twisted around in a funny way to mean "you get to decide how all things are, for everyone."

I don't know if it's a cult, but they do charge more for subsequent meeting, encourage people to go to lots of (expensive) meetings, and encourage people to bring others to the meetings, kind of like amway.  She tried to encourage me in that direction and I was so uncooperative (not negative, just not interested) that she gave up.  But she has taken several friends.  I get the impression if I don't want to go, I don't get to really be as good a friend to her anymore.  They may tell participants that a real friend would go.

Maybe I'm just freaking out because watching Tom Cruise on the Today show gave  me nightmares for weeks.  I don't really know that landmark is as bad as scientology.

[mum]

They encourage people to call people in their lives and apologize for the "interpretations" they have had of things that the people did.  But the funny thing is, what they are really doing is calling and telling the people what they are mad about.

 They do have this deal where you aren't supposed to leave the room during the sessions.  And they humiliate people who do, if I remember correctly (I was having trouble following her when she described it).  And there is a lot of "facing the truth" that to me just sounds like people are tired and food/water-deprived after hours of this bs and they break down.

I could set your friend up in a room with my ex husband for FREE and she could experience all of the above!!!
What a crock! It's hard to talk to someone who is into this stuff, though. 
Oh, the irony!! Here they are supposedly teaching people about self empowerment while they institutionally humiliate people for wanting basic needs met!!!
How can you argue with that????

Oh, and Tom Cruise? Don't get me started!  The guy has lost it!!

[Sallying Forth]

Here is a link to their website with a description of their forum.
http://www.landmarkeducation.com/display_content.jsp?top=21&mid=59

Sounds like LifeSpring, EST and a couple of other "leadership and development training" or "human potential movement" seminars I know about. I attended LifeSpring years ago and it was very cultish. The leaders of the groups were charismatic and megalomanics. I felt that way about the founder when I met him as well. Cult experts call these Large Group Awareness Trainings.

Very similar to EST, we were supposed to find out what our "lowest label" was and then declare it to everyone. Then after that you get your "highest label." So tearing down before building up. There were some very sick scenarios in which one had to participate.

"Here the forty participants were the only passengers on a boat that was sinking. The one lifeboat would only hold five passengers. Which five of the forty were to be saved? For a couple of hours, we were allowed to thrash it out amongst ourselves, and decided to draw lots.

"Then we did it the trainers' way. This involved having five "live" votes. Each participant went around a circle consisting of all the other participants, looked each participant in the eyes, and saying either, "You live" or "You die." Nothing else. This meant you had to look at least thirty-five people in the eye and say, "You die." It also meant that a significant number of the forty were likely to look you in the eye and say, "You die." A favorite trainer question: "Did you save a `live' vote for yourself?" Those who failed to were "processed" by a trainer until they wished the boat would hurry up and sink so they could drown and get it all over with. When done with this "You die" voting process, the five people who were chosen to live sit in five chairs set up as the lifeboat, and the rest of the people, seated on the floor, go through a long, grisly guided meditation in which they drown. As they die, they lie back, and are dead. (Peter McWilliams – Insight Advanced)" From the the web site below.

Moira wrote:
Is this brainwashing for bucks?

Essentially yes. The premise is you will be made into a leader in your community. Yeah, a cookie-cutter leader in your community. A little robotic extension of their 'forum.' So a 'N'-like result is possible.

Moira wrote:
I'm assuming that your friend was flailling around for some kind of life raft so whatever she is desperately seeking "they" seem to fill that void.

That's exactly the type of person who really gets "suckered" into these 'trainings.' And exactly the type they 'recruit.' Many people who go are from traumatic childhoods and easily dissociate. I remember over half of the people in my 'group' were survivors of abuse.

This web site probably tells you more than you want to know but it's good information about these Large Group Awareness Trainings.
http://perso.wanadoo.fr/eldon.braun/awareness/

Scroll down to the pink section. Landmark is covered there.

Basically the program is a cult - strict rules for belonging, not talking about what goes on inside with anyone on the outside, agreeing or getting kicked out.  It is physically, emotionally and mentally abusive.

[vunil]

Well, GREAT <--- sarcastic

So do friends drag friends' asses out of that kind of thing or let them discover it for themselves?  I mean, it is kind of her choice and I think she is sensible.  But it could really tear someone up to decide that the one thing they have decided makes them special is now b.s.  Especially someone vulnerable.

But she doesn't even talk to me about it.  I know she would get really defensive if I tried to talk to her about it at all.

What narcissistic idiot came up with that lifeboat thing?  And what on earth is it supposed to accomplish?  It reminds me of those parlor tricks where they have you imagine yourself walking through a forest, seeing a bear, going into a house, etc.  Then the leader tells you that how you imagined the forest is your life, the bear is death, etc.  And then stares at your meaningfully.  Except that is totally made up!  Someone made it up. 

The thing that bugs me (well, besides everything) about this kind of thing is that psychology really actually is a science.  Someone could study whether picking people to live or die was helpful in some way (besides being an expression of extreme N).  If it were helpful, we would know.  If how you picture a forest were how you picture life, then that would be a well-known therapy technique.   It is ridiculous for people just to make up that they know how to help people, and apply it as if they have some sort of authority.  Not that there aren't psychologists who do that too, heaven knows, but at least there are ethics committees to take away their licenses.  And at least there really are people studying the science and making sense of it.  Thank heavens for them--- they have helped me a lot.

I sort of hope she invites me to go to a seminar.  I would really enjoy, in my pregnant bitchy state, tearing into those "leaders."  It might be quite the therapy for ME.  Heh heh.  I guess everyone would just decide I didn't "get it."

Thanks for the info.  Now I need to figure out what to do with it...

[bunny]

Vunil,

Your friend, for whatever reason, has chosen to join a cult group. This is sad. And there's nothing you can do about it. She's a grownup and she gets to make her own choices. Friends can't save friends from cults. That's way beyond our power. She'll have to find her way out of this one. I would put up some boundaries and never revise your schedule for her convenience. She obviously wouldn't do the same for you.

bunny

[miss piggy]

Hi Vunil,

Yes, it sounds like a cult.  Here is a website with great articles about cults, brainwashing and more.  There are similarities between traumatic bonding and cult adulation.

http://www.rickross.com/reference/brainwashing/brainwashing18.html

I agree that your friend is a grownup and makes her own choices...but you seem willing to make one more "college try" for your friendship's sake.  Since cult leaders of course are suspicious and try to cut ties between the recruit and outside relationships, you might want to consider gently suggesting therapy to your friend.  A therapist could be that neutral person who might help her overcome whatever it was that led her to want to join this group at the cost of her previous outside life (she's probably not there yet but on her way).  If she continues, she's on a different path now...brainwashed people can seem like Little Ns.

The need to belong is a strong one.  A cousin from the more N side of my family joined the Moonies when they first hit the US in the 70s and still belongs...

Best, MP

[vunil]

The need to belong is a strong one.  A cousin from the more N side of my family joined the Moonies when they first hit the US in the 70s and still belongs...

I didn't know they were still around.  Wow-- do you even see him/her? 

 I think that Landmark takes money from people for the seminars, but they aren't the super-cult deal where you have to make money to give to them, like the moonies do.  I talked to a friend today who attended Landmark seminars years ago and he says it is not terrible-- it is mostly bs and does not do what it promises, but that for some people it might be helpful.  He thinks our friend might get something out of it because, even though it is bs, it may lead her to feel she has some special ability to face her insecurities and fears.  So, then maybe she will go ahead and do it.  And I agree that's a good thing, and overdue.  He thinks she is a little stuck and that this might unstick her for enough time so that she might be able to move forward.  I am glad he's optimistic, and I'll keep my faith, too.  We can always watch and see how things develop.  I know it's her life and her journey, and until she starts trying to sell me flowers or starts wearing a red robe with her leader's picture around her neck, I guess I'll stay out of it.

I'm just in this mood (pregnancy!) where seeing someone take advantage of someone else makes me furious and crazy.  And I think that the leaders of this group are doing that.  On the other hand, I don't know that for sure.  I'm just guessing from the readings you all sent along, and just from the fact that the whole thing is pretty expensive.  Also, in my impatience and bitchiness I think most of it sounds profoundly stupid, so making someone pay for it seems wrong.  But we all spend time with/pay for profoundly stupid things at one time or another.

[mum]

But we all spend time with/pay for profoundly stupid things at one time or another.

Thanks, Vunil. I needed that!! It's so very true and another 'whatever' stamp to put on the strangeness of life!

[miss piggy]

Hi Vunil,

I wonder if being pregnant amplifies our core issues.
You said:

seeing someone take advantage of someone else makes me furious and crazy.

When I was pregnant the second time my hormones were All Systems Go.  I saw kids "playing" in a playground near our house.  I should say they were "playing" awfully rough and hitting each other.  (no adults around.) I couldn't stand watching it.  I ran my big self across the street and broke it up (while yelling at them through a chain link fence!).  I said, friends don't treat each other this way.  One girl said "no one got hurt."

Must be just wanting our children to be born into a better world than the one we see or experienced.  Even now, the things that send me over the edge usually have something to do with bullying, which I guess is a second cousin to what you are observing with your friend?...Anyway, sounds like you're arriving at a healthy detachment from your friend's situation.   

MP

[drphilest]

some years ago i read a book
titled something like
maybe
NARCISSISTS BORDERLINES PSCYOPATHS ...

it made the point that maybe to survive in this changing world
the qualities of a psychopath might be the best option...

as to dr phil and est
many think he borrowed many pages from the likes of est...
. i would tend to agree
tho i think he is better cloaked yet than some other groups of the same ilk as est