What is "N"?

[Chicken]

Hi
I am relatively new to this site and I am trying to understand more about the problems in my life (relationship problems, hence my post below)
Could anyone describe briefly what an N is and how you recognise one?  Maybe I am one!!!???  eek! 

[bunny]

Chicken,

You are not a narcissist. If you were, you wouldn't be on this board and you wouldn't be asking. In a nutshell, narcissists are:

(1) VERY VERY selfish. They are focused totally on their needs, wants, demands, expectations, moods, desires, convenience. No one else's needs matter. Only theirs.

(2) Manipulative. They will twist and turn things around so that their needs come first and everyone else is shamed, dismissed, and abused for having needs. They see themselves as martyrs/victims.

(3) Charming and magnetic. They can abuse their victim and charm them back with fake remorse, apologies, interest in the victim, promises of better behavior, etc.

(4) Dependent. They cover it up by acting independent, uncaring, self-centered, abusive, hostile, aggressive, mean, etc.

(5) Boundary-less. They trample over other's feelings, needs, privacy, bodies, minds, spirit. They will take whatever they want without remorse or guilt, only demanding even more.

(6) Extremely punitive. They relentlessly punish their victims for not meeting their needs, wants, desires, etc., and for standing up for themselves instead of submitting without question.


I could go on but these are some major hallmarks.

bunny

[Chicken]

Thanks Bunny, appreciate that x

[Chicken]

Hmmmm.... doubt sinks in....

Surely if you meet and have a relationship with an N, you must have N qualities yourself? 

Surely an N brings out the N in you?  I believe that your partner is your mirror.  I most definately was with an N in my last relationship, which ended yesterday.  I know I am guilty of some of the N traits mentioned above.  I have been mean to him too!  He certainly has accused me of being manipulative etc etc etc, who is to say I am right and he is wrong?  He says he is a simple person and doesn't want the drama that I bring to the relationship.  I know I really drive him mad sometimes.  Last night I said things that I know would hurt him and I said them for that reason.  I have met some really good guys in the past and I turned them into monsters... 

i am just speaking out loud here, please tell me your thoughts on the matter as I find this aspect of relationships so confusing...  who is right and who is wrong? 

If my Ex N were to come on this board and tell you all the things I have done to him, would you tell him I was an N?

Who's the N????

 

Gotta go before I drive myself crazy! 

[longtire]

Selkie,
Someone with NPD would not be asking themselves these questions, let alone doing it where other might find out.  Horrors!    Someone with NPD feels that compulsion to ALWAYS appear superior.  Admitting weakness in front of others is NEVER an acceptable strategy with NPD.  So, by wondering whether you might have NPD and being concerned about that here, you show that you do NOT.  I know, that's quite a twist of logic there, but just keep repeating it to yourself until you "get it."  I think just about everyone who comes to this board wonders the same thing about themselves.

The person with NPD is always searching out sources of supply.  The "best" ones are usually caretakers who try to "save" the person with NPD.  This seems to be the most common dynamic with the caretaker getting trampled by the person with NPD (or Borderline PD in my case).  In chosen relationships, some of us caretakers just give in and accept ALL the blame for ALL problems, instead of the responsibility for our own issues.  Also in chosen relationships, some of us caretakers reach our breaking points where we lose touch with our principles and react to the abusive behavior by treating them the same way they treat us.  That is not a good situation, but it does not mean we have NPD, just that we are under tremendous pressure.  In unchosen relationships, like being the child of someone with NPD or BPD, it is possible to truly acquire these PD's in reaction to a miserable childhood.

Well, that is a lot of words, but it boils down to the fact that you acknowledge and take responsibility for your actions.  If you had NPD you would be telling us how you had no choice, and he "forced" you to treat him that way for his own good.  And how all the other problems are obviously 100% his fault too, since you would have the unspoken "knowledge" that you are superior to everyone else.  Anyone who could not see how 100% "perfect" you are must reeaaallly have problems since it is so "obvious."  Lots more to say, but this is already a lot to absorb.

(((((((((((((Selkie))))))))))))))

[bunny]

Surely if you meet and have a relationship with an N, you must have N qualities yourself? 

Everyone has N qualities. The question is, are you a pathological narcissist? (Answer: NO.)


Surely an N brings out the N in you?  I believe that your partner is your mirror.  I most definately was with an N in my last relationship, which ended yesterday.  I know I am guilty of some of the N traits mentioned above.  I have been mean to him too!  He certainly has accused me of being manipulative etc etc etc, who is to say I am right and he is wrong?  He says he is a simple person and doesn't want the drama that I bring to the relationship.  I know I really drive him mad sometimes.  Last night I said things that I know would hurt him and I said them for that reason.  I have met some really good guys in the past and I turned them into monsters... 

If you are in a relationship that is very unhealthy, you will act out. If this guy beat/assaulted you, this is a no-brainer. He is very dangerous and abusive. We don't need to diagnose him or decide "what he is." Did you call the police?

bunny

[Sallying Forth]

Hmmmm.... doubt sinks in....

Surely if you meet and have a relationship with an N, you must have N qualities yourself? 

I know I really drive him mad sometimes.  Last night I said things that I know would hurt him and I said them for that reason.  I have met some really good guys in the past and I turned them into monsters... 

Hello Selkie,
Did these really good guys say you made them into monsters? I've been in an abusive relationship (not N) for 17 years. My husband told me I was manipulative, coercive, causing him problems, trying to make his life miserable, making the relationship bad, trying to hurt him, making him get mad, etc. ad nauseum. These are hallmark signs of an abuser. They don't take responsibility for their behavior rather they put the blame on their love object.

That doesn't mean I didn't behave in ways that were not loving. I did. Many times these were to protect myself emotionally from further harm. And that doesn't mean I am now the abuser. That is called "turning the tables." A frequent weapon used on their love objects. It is the one thing that makes the victim feel crazy. The other one is denying what they do.

There's a great book on this Why Does He Do That? by Lundy Bancroft. It will help you understand the abuser's behavior and the N's behavior. Although there is a difference between a pathological condition and one where some knowingly chooses the behavior. Abusers knowingly choose to treat people the way they do. They make a actual decision in their mind. They are conscious of what they do. An abuser's behavior is very similar to a N's. They have entitlement issues, blame their victims or love objects, usually treat only one person badly, fail to take responsibility for their own life, etc.

I remember after reading that book I answered the question myself. He does it because he can get away with it!

[October]

I most definately was with an N in my last relationship, which ended yesterday.  I know I am guilty of some of the N traits mentioned above. 

When my alcoholic ex was still here, I was a very nasty person.  I used to shout, and swear a lot.  I called him every name under the sun, and still couldn't find one bad enough for him.

Even now, if he phones, I can start to swear at him at times.  I call his parents morons.  I asked him the other day if his parents have bought him any new clothes yet (I told them in February that he needed clothes, and I even sent him some a month back, and they said they would get him some more then), and he said no, and I said if they don't hurry up it will be too late, and he was really offended by that.     The truth hurts.

I think when you are with crazymaking people, they drive you crazy.  When you are with normal people, if you are normal yourself, you behave normally; that is the test.

Crazy people cannot modify their behaviour by choice depending on circumstances; Ns are always N.  The rest of us can use those Nish behaviours sometimes, but we can also to empathy and compassion when needed.

My Nmum can't understand why with other people I am friendly, outgoing, concerned, communicative, and ready for hugs and kisses.  With her I am standoffish, cold, uncommunicative, suspicious, and would rather die than touch her.   

[Chicken]

Wow!  Some tremendous food for thought there, thanks everyone!  So many things are beginning to ring true now and I am beginning to feel like I may be ok actually! 
It's hard to believe that there are people out there who consciously decide to behave like that!  I have been very naive, which is why I get myself tangled up with people I suppose.  I always thought people were a whole lot simpler!
Duh!

[Plucky]

I have met some really good guys in the past and I turned them into monsters... 

Hey, Selkie, this is not possible.   No really good person can be turned into a monster just by having a relationship with you!  Unless you are injecting chemicals into them....
More likely, they pretended to be nice until you gave themn an excuse to drop the act.   
Plucky

[gnostic]

well now there is npd
but there is npa
in npa theory
where theoritcally genetically one can various aspects
and combinations of
narcissism
perfectionism  or
aggression

all of which can be healthy
but given the state humans
at one point anyways all fell short...
it might be a bit relative ....

interestingly in this theory..
yes google should reveal ...
those born just with the perfectionist part alone
..dont survive
well but since it is a theory and even if
proven genetically
if we had a dna sample of jesus......

[spyralle]

This is all something i really struggle with Selkie.  I have spent the past five and a half weeks pulling apart the relationship and blaming myself for everything.  i can remember times when I was petulant and moody and disatisfied etc,,,,,  I have told myself that I have made him do what he has done and if only i could have maintained that lovingness that he responded so well too.

October you have just made me really think.  I am exactly the same with my N mum and am now trying to work out why I  am that way.  Why did I start behving differently with ex.  Is it unconscious stuff....

Spyralle x

[Gail]

I think when you are with crazymaking people, they drive you crazy.  When you are with normal people, if you are normal yourself, you behave normally; that is the test.

I've been rereading some old posts and this quote from October really struck me.  It was exactly what I was thinking the other day--that I behave very normally with people I consider normal, and normal people generally like me, so all is well.  Unfortunately, I've had a crazy making husband and then a crazy making BF.  I'm learning from this site why I was willing to put with them and, hopefully, will run the other way if ever one looks my way again.  I also can understand better why I occasionally reacted somewhat maladaptively to the way they treated me--yelling at the passive aggressive husband and apologizing to NXBF when he got upset that I protested his hurtful behavior (also begging for decent treatment--Yuck!).  I've felt badly about those reactions, but know I've never engaged in that kind of behavior with a "regular" person.

Sometimes, a phrase really pops out and makes an aspect of all this more clear, and this was one of those times.  Thank you, October.

[David P]

Hi Selkie,What sort of things did you do in your relationships with those nice guys to "turn them into monsters?"
David P.

[write]

<I believe that your partner is your mirror.>

I think very often we are attracted to traits which seem the mirror-image or opposite of our own, complimentary traits that we ( or our parents! ) lack(ed).

Also in relationship-forming, in the initial stages we superficially mirror each other's gestures, mannerisms and even tone down or enhance behaviours in order to 'woo' our partners. Later in a relationship we maybe grow more like our partners in a deeper way, taking on some of their values etc.

But I don't believe we have to be the mirror of our partner in any absolute sense, in fact I believe we have to be complete and whole ourselves first before a successful mutual relationship outcome is likely.