How To Talk with Kids About Their N Father

[Strong1]

I am new to this board.  I am recently divorced from a N man who I spent over 20 years with.  We have two children, 12 and 9.  They spend every other weekend with XH unless his schedule doesn't allow.  He's started eliminating "one-on-one" time with the kids -- there's always someone else around, including his girlfriend (he had numerous secret affairs during our marriage), guy friends, family members, etc.

The kids have complained that they want to spend time with "just him" and he explodes in a rage.

His behavior is belittling physically and verbally.

I wonder if he's trying to set up a sitch where he can just walk away.

How do I talk with my kids about N so they can understand that it's not about them, but just the way he is.  Without "undercutting" XH?

Anyone done this successfully?

Thanks, Strong1

[Plucky]

Hi Strong1 (I like your name),
Welcome to the board.  Congrats on your awakening and condolences on all you must have suffered over 20 years.
I am not sure what to tell them (my kids are younger).  An important thing is to elicit their feelings.  I am not sure you need to interpret or explain - they are old enough to form some opinions themselves and that is tricky anyway.    All I can suggest is that you provide a safe place for them to talk about how it makes them feel and make sure they know they can ask you for what ever they need, as their needs are not important to their father (don't say that of course).
I have a 7 year old and I am constantly surprised at how insightful he is, given a chance to express himself.  Other times he hesitates and I say something like, that might make me angry, and then he can agree or not.  He seems to need permission that his feelings are ok to say out loud, and once that is done, he is relieved and it is over for the time being.  Sometimes I say, That sucks! or 'If someone did that I would think they didn't care about my feelings', etc.   
I don't know if any of this is helpful or not.    You are far ahead of where I am.  In any case good luck and as a caring parent. even if you don't get all the details right, overall your kids get the right stuff from you.
Plucky
PS look out for yourself, and acknowledgeand accept your own feelings about his actions.

[mum]

he explodes in a rage.

His behavior is belittling physically and verbally.

I wonder if he's trying to set up a sitch where he can just walk away.

I wonder, with the above behavoirs of his toward your children, why you wouldn't welcome his just walking away.

I have bitten my tongue half off for 9 years, and I would have simply loved it if my ex had dissapeared rather than continue to punish me (for leaving his sorry cheating butt), and his children with his personality disorder!

It's not easy to shut up when your ex is a jerk, but it is ESSENTIAL that you NOT shut up if he is downright abusive to the children.
Consult an attorney, document everything....everything.  I am convinced, from reading this board, that kids are better off with ONE GOOD PARENT than two, when one is raging and abusive.

ARe you concerned financially? Again, get an attorney.

[dogbit]

How do I talk with my kids about N so they can understand that it's not about them, but just the way he is.  Without "undercutting" XH?

If he is physically or verbally abusive to your children, do they report this to you after their visits?  Or have you witnessed it yourself?  Either way, my therapist gave me the following advice:  you can talk to your kids about your ex-husbands actions without undercutting him. or defaming him.  If you just talk about the actions, you're validating their perceptions.  If he subjects them to a rage, tell them you would feel terrible if you had been there and that raging is not acceptable.  At their age, they know who he is.  My own daughter once asked me why I had always said Dad was "just difficult" at times when she knew he was an A$$W!!!! Of course, she was much older than your children at the time but it made me realize that by my not acknowledging his bad behaviour to her when she was younger, it made for some crazy making for her.   

[mum]

Excellent advice, Dogbit.  It's the razor's edge we walk on.  Always aware that this jerk is half thier DNA.  Can't reject him without rejecting part of them....or so they say.

But I wonder: if someone's behavoir is such that even saying what it is (validating what the kids say about it) sounds like "saying bad things about dad", well maybe it's because dad is doing something bad...and  actions speak of  character. It's inevitable.

My teenage children can tell me things thier dad has done/said and put thier own negative judgement on it (dad's really a phony, dad has a horrible temper) but (and here's where the tongue biting goes on) if I say: " wow, you sound angry. I don't feel that way about (whatever it is) at my house, etc" as benignly as possible, I will still sometimes hear "hey, don't say bad things about dad!"
Damned if you do and damned if you don't. But that is teenage manipulation, too.... and I don't have to stand for that, either.

Still wondering, Strong 1, if the behavoir your ex displays is truly abusive, you need to protect your children, and now.
But if it is the hard to pin down, emotional manipulation of an N....well, welcome to a very big club.

[dogbit]

My teenage children can tell me things thier dad has done/said and put thier own negative judgement on it (dad's really a phony, dad has a horrible temper) but (and here's where the tongue biting goes on) if I say: " wow, you sound angry. I don't feel that way about (whatever it is) at my house, etc" as benignly as possible, I will still sometimes hear "hey, don't say bad things about dad!"
Damned if you do and damned if you don't. But that is teenage manipulation, too.... and I don't have to stand for that, either.

I think the kids no matter what their ages are conflicted about finding out that their Father has a problem that excludes them from his life.  Maybe when they say not to say bad things about Dad, they are really talking about the Dad they wanted to have and maybe hope they can still have.  They are young.   Maybe a solution is that when they tell us the bad stuff, we can just say I'm sorry...When I had you, I never wanted you to experience anything like this.  I think that leaves the communication open without being judgemental.   And when Dad does something that is so obviously abnormal like raging, the kids need to know that they don't deserve this particular action (raging) and that it is Dad's job to take care of it and not their job to accept it as the price of spending time with a Dad they would like to have.   

[dogbit]

One more thought!  My kids are adults now....when they were younger, it was a much dicier problem as to what to say to them.  Fortunately, my husband was rarely home and when he was home, he was not really there so I had the advantage of being a single parent.  It's just as they have gotten older, I realize that they always knew who he was and played along with the game of "Dad is just difficult".  Maybe that was the right thing to do then...who knows....I know that when they became teenagers, we started talking a lot more about our family and while they are sad, at least they have the knowledge to recognize someone like this much more quickly than I did.  The only good thing about marrying a Mr. Entitlement is that I have three great kids!  And yes, they carry his genes but they have my nurture and a whole lot more information about personality disorders.  Better living through science   

[miss piggy]

Hello Strong,

I don't know if I can be much help except to say that perhaps your X is an all or nothing kind of guy.  It reads as though he is starting to "move on" and that means seeing less of the "old" family.  I could be wrong.

Also, I know some Ns (esp BPDs) hate to be alone with kids because a) kids are needier than they are, b) kids take attention and resources away from them, and c) if anything goes wrong, the oldest person in the room is held responsible (this is a big one with the most psychotic people in my life).  They hate being held accountable, too, and it sounds like maybe the kids are standing up for themselves a little too much for his taste.  

My N never wanted us kids to "need" him.  Ever.  Everything was on his terms.  Period.  If he felt like giving, he gave.  But don't ask.  He had to be in the mood and the stars and sun lined up just right.  

Your kids have the right to ask to be with him, and isn't it nice they still want to?  They have expectations and that is what is ticking him off.  Watch what happens when they say, forget it!  Nuts to you, dad!  

I'm glad to read that they are open with you.  Sometimes just listening helps.  Take care, MP

[Strong1]

Thanks, everyone, for your thoughtful replies.  I spoke with my therapist yesterday (in June she told me I was healthy enough not to continue seeing her, but to call anytime) and she suggested two things.  First, she suggests I ask XH to go back to our marriage counselor to talk about parenting issues.  One of the things I deal with is kinda difficult -- he sets it up so I'm the person who tells him he's screwed up something.  This allows him to continue to be angry with me and deal with impunity.

I ain't playing.

By suggesting the marriage counselor rather than confronting him directly, I step out of the critical role to a degree.  If he says no, then I've behaved responsibly.  If he says yes, I have a forum to air his physicality with the kids and his belittling language.

T also suggested I take the kids aside and assure them that this is the way XH is.  She thinks it's important for them to accept him as he is and not pine for the "wished-for" dad. 

All in all, it sucks and I wish it were different.  She and I agreed that if he walks away it really wouldn't be all bad.  I can see a sitch developing where he has dinner with the kids occasionally and the occasional overnight.  Comfy for everyone.

Thanks again.  You're a smart group of people.

-- Strong1

[dogbit]

Also, I know some Ns (esp BPDs) hate to be alone with kids because a) kids are needier than they are, b) kids take attention and resources away from them, and c) if anything goes wrong, the oldest person in the room is held responsible (this is a big one with the most psychotic people in my life).  They hate being held accountable, too, and it sounds like maybe the kids are standing up for themselves a little too much for his taste. 

My N never wanted us kids to "need" him.  Ever.  Everything was on his terms.  Period.  If he felt like giving, he gave.  But don't ask.  He had to be in the mood and the stars and sun lined up just right. 

Your kids have the right to ask to be with him, and isn't it nice they still want to?  They have expectations and that is what is ticking him off.  Watch what happens when they say, forget it!  Nuts to you, dad!


I just have to tell you that what you wrote was such a light bulb going off for me.  Thanks!   

[OR]

Strong, Miss piggiy, dogbit,MUM

They hate being held accountable, too, and it sounds like maybe the kids are standing up for themselves a little too much for his taste.

This rings with me, having a 12 yr old, in the mist of setting up custody with an upcoming divorce.

My N-H made comment, when our daughter was young he was Elvis and she was his Lisa Marie.
and how now  he could nolonger tolerate her when she was willing to sass back at him. He would tease and push her until she snapped back at him. He would blame her for being disrespectful, when she was rightfully standing up for herself.

As she got older she no longer adored him, He even said he hated her. I was crushed how he could ever say such a hurtful thing to me, I did voice to him I would never stand to hear him say this to me ever again.

Now 5mos later, I have tried to say little about the hurts done to me, we focus on being consistant with daily routines. I tell her I love her everday before I leave for work. I have explained the truth about her dad being a
self-absorbed N along with the physical problems and the Meds (morphine) have affected his judgement.
This took me awhile to disscuss this with her. I sometimes e-mail her from work because she was shutting me down when I would try and talk with her. She would tell me she read my email, and I leave it alone.

She never calls him, she may e-mail him. I know he tells her how he hates me being in contact with her aunt and uncle and his kids. We don't see them as much anymore, I think he has gotten eveyone upset with his reactions we are just taking a rest for now and also after the recent death of BIL's  older son we are all giving space to adjust and morn.

He writes her letters, she does not share them with me, however she leaves them laying around and I have read some of them. Some of them are concerning and I have copied them for future evidence, most are how she should do well in school and believe it or not told her how she should "NEVER LIE".
He tells of a story how his dad knew he never lied ????????? NEVER ---GAG ME
I think he wanted her to tell HIS  TRUTH and not to lie about his truth.....how I kidnapped her.

She is just now willing to share with me  "if her father was here he would have over reacted".
We love the move WATERBOY, she said the mother reminded her of her dad, everything was the DEVIL.
She tells me, she thinks (not me) he is Bipolar, how a boy in school is bipolar and maybe her dad has this problem. I tell her "it is possible he his".

I think at 12 being honest with her allows her to be honest with herself. I'm telling her and he knows now after last week his mental evaluation exposing he is N to the judge, we all must now move forward how to adjust to his N-ness. (lies, not caring, how what he does to us affects us)

And below how MISS PIGGY said they take not responseibility................ This is great !!!

Also, I know some Ns (esp BPDs) hate to be alone with kids because a) kids are needier than they are, b) kids take attention and resources away from them, and c) if anything goes wrong, the oldest person in the room is held responsible (this is a big one with the most psychotic people in my life).  They hate being held accountable, too, and it sounds like maybe the kids are standing up for themselves a little too much for his taste. 

I nolonger walk around on eggshells, I have no desire to make N-H happy. He used his health as the reason for us to keep him calm, no stress in his life, how me leaving him after 27 years was killing him.

I don't play the game now, I find I am more honest with my feelings, if I make a decision someone's not happy then they can deal with it, I know I'm doing what needs to be done nolonger second guessing myself.
What a big growth this has been for us both. I'm setting boundries but not walls.
We both have lots of pain we are still working through, some of the walls are there and how to knock them down will take time............


Getting stonger everyday.................OR




 

[miss piggy]

Hello everyone,

I'm glad my experience is helping some folks here!  Isn't it funny/strange/weird/interesting how we can sometimes take a hard line when it comes to our kids?  I don't know exactly why.  There could be lots of reasons, like we know what it's like to be a kid and feel defenseless, or we don't want our kids to have the same rotten experience we did as kids, or maybe we see it quicker because it's happening to someone else and not us? 

One Big N was able to fool my family for a very long time because she posed as a very competent babysitter for us.  But she always had her H along (which even at the time I thought was weird).  But once she had her own children, she would make up reasons why my kids, who were at this point older, should come over to play with her toddlers.  It was ALWAYS when she was alone in charge of her own kids.  She hates being alone, but doesn't want to be responsible.  At the time, I knew it was an inappropriate situation but I couldn't put my finger on why. (BTW, I declined her invitations.)  It was because she was putting my kids in the position of babysitting HER as well as her kids.    All the children in this situation were under 10 years old. 

And it wasn't until just very recently that I figured out that my Nfather is the same way!  Talk about light bulbs!  It seems like men can get away with it for longer because women are expected to be nurturing and take care of the kids.  Dads are busy "at work".  My father is/was a workaholic (so I thought), but now I realize part of the problem is he didn't want to spend time with us.  We never went on trips together, play kids games or even cards.  He was very happy to talk our ears off about his work or college related achievements.  (I know he is N and now I am wondering if he is BPD because he also hates being alone but is not companionable.)

He used his health as the reason for us to keep him calm

OR, they are the masters of the Free Pass on bad behavior, aren't they?  Funny, I use the line "you're killing me!" as a joke when my children start pestering me (fortunately they laugh, because I mean it to be funny and outrageous). 

Just another thought on kids and their awareness: there is a teacher at our school who is quite obviously bipolar.  All the kids know she isn't quite right in the head because she will be fine and calm one minute and then if say a student raises their hand or there is an announcement over the PA system, she goes off like a rocket.  The kids adapt in different ways...by going quiet in her classroom, or by trying to set her off on purpose because she is so over the top.  Bottom line is though that the kids recognize that it is HER not them.  So hopefully our kids might be able to recognize that all is not right with their parents if it is gently validated by peers or other adults.  That being said, there's another teacher who is more selective and therefore more harmful because the student thinks "why me and not Joe?  It must be something I did" and it becomes more personal.  But it's just arbitrary. 

Oh boy, I didn't mean to ramble.  Hugs to you all, MP

[OR]

MP

So hopefully our kids might be able to recognize that all is not right with their parents if it is gently validated by peers or other adults.  That being said, there's another teacher who is more selective and therefore more harmful because the student thinks "why me and not Joe?  It must be something I did" and it becomes more personal.  But it's just arbitrary. 

Validation...........this is the LIGHT, when all appears dark and confusing. 

I think when I was growing up I may have known some strange adults, I had no Idea why or what made them strange. My daughter has much more information about PD's they  now have a name to relate what the strange behavior is. I never knew what bipolar or N was until recently.

I had a mother with some kind of PD, she would often give me the total silent treatment and often did the favorites with my sisters, it caused all kinds of confusion in my head.  I may have made her upset,she chose to abandon me emotionaly all the time. I have had no relationship with her for over 27 years.

I continue to learn and understand more about PD, Im thankful my daughter will understand more than I did at a young age, so maybe she will learn to overcome the emotional pain. She has only 1 father and is sad about how he behaves, but as she learns from her peers she will discover she is not alone.


Hugs to all the children of N's.........OR