Can't We All Just Get Along?

[Plucky]

Come on you guys,
I find the gnostic poster difficult to read. So basically I don't read him/her.  But is he/she really doing all those bad things?  Maybe he/she is very triggering for people.  But maybe that is just where that person is, in terms of communication.  Sometimes clear communication is very exposed for a person, and they have to be cryptic, in order to feel protected, in the hope someone will slog through all the mess to find some gem.   
I can't do it but some can.  Let's leave it to them and not start a big fight.  I felt awful when some suggested that the person ought to be excluded.  Lord knows I've been excluded before.  It felt like a big bully fight.  That triggered me.  This board is a great place.  gnostic is not wrecking it.   If you can't take it just don't click on it.  It's clear enough to avoid, isn't it?   

Let's try to be more tolerant. 
Plucky

[d'smom]

*I felt awful when some suggested that the person ought to be excluded.  Lord knows I've been excluded before.  It felt like a big bully fight.  That triggered me.  This board is a great place.  gnostic is not wrecking it.   If you can't take it just don't click on it.  It's clear enough to avoid, isn't it?*


just for the record becuase Im all for tolerance I want to be clear, it was certainly not ever my intention to want to exclude anyone!. several people tried to honestly initiate contact and I think came up with the feeling that it was a fruitless endeavor........ i personally just dont have energy to waste on fruitless endeavors anymore and I said so... others might.  thats setting a boundary. im not willing to do all the work in relationships anymore.

this is a place for voice, so if he wants to ramble on, i see he's found the ramble thread. as the grateful dead say "ramble on rose" i just personaly wont be replying.............. thats my boundary.
Anna

[vunil]

I guess my interpretation of all of that was different.  When I first came here, I was very questioning, asking if it was really true that so and so (whom a poster was posting about) was N and weren't we all N and etc.  I am not sure what I was doing-- working against something in my head, I guess.

A few people were pretty firm with me about my tone and assumptions and it helped me a lot.  Basically, I think this is a community and it has subtle rules.  When someone violates them a lot and repeatedly, folks will let him or her know.  I don't think anyone meant to exclude anyone-- the closest anyone (not me) came to that was saying "I wonder if this is the place for you" which I think is ok.  It's a little less blunt than folks were with me.  If I wanted to work with this group, I needed to have a little more respect for what it was about.  That was a message I heard and learned from and it helped me with some of my own denial, which I needed.

It's a tough line, I agree.   I really like the idea of being super-open to people who are different from us, absolutely, this group is wonderful and should do that. But this group is also the chance for people who have been severely (really severely, for some) abused to heal, and part of that is being clear about what we want from each other.  And then listening and hearing if the person says "whoa I think you want too much" or whatever.  It's that second part that wasn't working.

That said, I agree it's a little weird that I kept responding to him when I didn't get anything I wanted back.  I sort of thought I might "break through" with just the right words.  I should have backed off sooner.  But I was honestly acting in a spirit of helping, not excluding.  Or thought I was   But you are right-- time to give up.  Sigh.

[Chicken]

Hi gang

I am new to this board and It is a Godsend that I found it, because I get a lot from people and I hope those people get a lot from me too. 

I have read the posts in question and I don't contribute to them, because I know I wouldn't get anything from them, maybe someone somewhere would, but if what you get is negative then, I would strongly keep away from those threads.

They are obviously pushing your buttons and maybe you need to work on that rather than get involved.  You can't change/fix people.  you must accept them for who they are, where they are and what they do and say.  If it doesn't work for you...AVOID.
There are many gems who post on this board.  Focus on those who nourish your soul.

[dogbit]

Sometimes clear communication is very exposed for a person, and they have to be cryptic, in order to feel protected, in the hope someone will slog through all the mess to find some gem.  
I can't do it but some can.  Let's leave it to them and not start a big fight.  I felt awful when some suggested that the person ought to be excluded.  Lord knows I've been excluded before.  It felt like a big bully fight.  That triggered me.  

OK, this is just me and my opinions and feelings but haven't you just described the sort of person/relationship which draws us to this discussion board?  And I don't think it is a big fight.  It is definitely not warm/fuzzy and we are calling someone on their inability to communicate equally with us.  Equally meaning using language that allows us to "see" them so we can respond in a way that allows them to see us.  When I read posts such as ghostil's, I keep thinking of that hole Alice fell down....and her fear that she didn't know when she would hit bottom.  Why are we spending so much time on messages that are encrypted suggesting that if we can only find the code, we could help this person....haven't we all jumped through enough hoops already?  And if we respond because we feel sorry for a person who blatantly is taking up a lot of our time just trying to do enough to reach HIS inner truth, aren't we just doing the same old thing of saving others to justify our own self worth?  I suspect there are no gems in his posts.  Or maybe there are.  But the gems have meaning only for him because, by this time, he should have gotten the message that we just don't understand him.  What is apparent to me is that he is not willing to revise his method of communication while the rest of us are willing.  The message was sent many weeks ago...he persists.  So WHY are we trying to save him from whatever demons we perceive him to have or whatever buttons in our own life he may push.  I think this discussion about this person can tell us a lot more about us than him.  We're taking the effort, he is not.  He also interjects himself in threads to create some drama and not to share anything that could be the least be supportive to the nature of the individual thread.  Most of us had to speak in code while being entangled with dysfunctional people.  I see no reason to continue that here.  I appreciate everyone who has extended themselves to interpret whatever this person is saying but I think it is our time now.  I think what seperates us from "them" is that we are willing to take the responsibility of ourselves and not trying to suck from others around us or to blame someone else...gosh,  I just realized I'm standing on a soap box...sorry...but I wanted to say it.  I'm willing to spend vast amount of time with others willing to put forth the same effort.  This is a change from the way I was.  And this is not about him, whoever he is since he is not willing to communicate clearly, this is about who we want to be.  The reason I am going on and on about this is because I am now reticent about saying much anymore.  It's a creepy feeling to know that someone out there is just using our thoughts to produce mocking posts.  Maybe there is another online discussion group that would be more appropriate for him.  And, this is going to sound harsh!  If anyone tries to save this person or spend lots of time trying to deciipher what he actually is saying, then  I  think we need to ask ourselves why.

[vunil]

Well whatever you think about the rest of this situation, I would say that Dogbit (and everyone else posting in this thread) has found a VOICE !  

Wow, everyone-- articulate!  If nothing else, I think we got a lot out of this situation because it allowed us to communicate with each other clearly.  I feel as if I truly understand everyone's position, intellectually and emotionally.  How cool.  

(not that I don't usually understand folks here, but this situation is more powerful, conflict-laden, and potentially confrontational than most, so it is a place where many of us might shy away from trying to deal with it, or would deal with it ineffectively-- in my family, conflict was full-on banned and I had no idea how to deal with it until I was taught as an adult-- and even now it's not my favorite thing.)

[October]

Maybe it is time to look at our own motives for being here, rather than anyone else's. 

I think personally that if I am honest, I come here for me, and not for anyone else.  This goes against all my CoN training, where I am supposed to be such a giving person that my own needs never matter, and where doing anything for me is 'selfish'.  It is supposed to be healthy to meet one's own needs first, and in so doing become stronger and be able to help others, so I am trying to say, that is what I am doing.  I am not being altruistic, or solving the problems of the world.  I am here because I need to be here; because I can find healing and safety here.

But, of course, in the process I make friends; some of them very valued friends.  And if I see any of those friends in need, then they are the ones who are easiest to support, because they are the ones I feel some kind of understanding, or connection, with.  In the same way, I find that those who answer or respond to my posts tend to be the same people each time.  But I don't myself respond to every post I read; some are too intense for me to come close to.  Some are subjects I don't feel able to comment about.  Some are just too long for me to read without getting too anxious.  There are a lot of constraints on each of us, depending on our situations, I suppose.

New names are less easy for me; it takes me a while to get to know them and their situations.  Some of them launch into graphic descriptions of their past immediately, which I personally find daunting.  Others are more restrained, and only tell their stories bit by bit.  Some never get past helping others, to reach the point where they are safe enough to reveal their own pain.

I personally wish I could answer Gnostic's posts, but I don't understand them, and I sometimes find them triggering.  Being able to communicate is a very healing thing for me, and failing to communicate, or saying something which to me seems crystal clear, but which is misunderstood, is very difficult. 

It does seem N to have a language all one's own.  But perhaps it is also Co to be that way.  I don't know.

If you leave me on my own long enough, I can argue right round in a circle and back to where I started.    

[Brigid]

I completely agree with dogbit and kaz.  I personally have never responded to anything that individual has written, because from the first reading I felt he was pulling my chain and looking for a response that would try to make sense of his nonsense. 

I have been helped greatly by posting, reading and helping others on this site.  I agree we should endeavor to get along, and I think, for the most part that happens, but I do think there are limits that this person has crossed way too many times.

Asking for help and asking for attention are completely different things.  Just my 2 cents.

Brigid

[daylily]

When I read Gnostic's thread, several possibilities occurred to me:

• Something is stopping him from writing more clearly (e.g., depression).
• He is trying to do a type of writing, such as poetry or prose-poems, that other readers might appreciate more, and his posts are really much more about the writing than the content.
• He enjoys the attention his writing gets him and has no desire to modify his writing to get less, or different, attention.

If any of these possibilities is true, it seems to me that Gnostic may benefit from a different audience for his work.  That, of course, is just my opinion.  But it strikes me as uniquely counterproductive to write in a way that people don't understand and then bristle when people ask you to be comprehensible so they can help you.  It seems to me that then it becomes all about the writing, about translating one person's individual language.  Some will find that exercise interesting and worthwhile, some won't.  The only thing that bothers me, and that strikes me as a valid criticism of that type of writing, is that the writer is asking the reader to spend a great deal of time interpreting the expression rather than analyzing, and commenting on, its content.  In other words, the writer is expecting a great deal of effort and attention from his readers, but perhaps for the wrong reasons--if what he expects is a "close reading," then isn't he asking for something that this venue does not provide?

I could say just about everything I've ever said here by posting poems.  But this is not a poetry forum.  If I want people to respond to me as a writer, there are other places where I can and should go.  If I want people to respond to the psychological content that drives my writing, then this is an appropriate forum.  When I come here, I'm not coming here as a writer.  I'm coming here as a person who has found the kindness, thoughtfulness, and sincerity of the people who post here supportive, refreshing, and life-affirming.  I don't want to see anybody abuse that.

All that said, I don't think anyone should be evicted unless he or she is openly abusive.  Just my opinion, as always.

daylily

[bunny]

I saw a few seconds where the guy (I'm assuming) almost said something self-revelatory and vulnerable. But I guess it was too scary so he went back to his gibberish and word salad. I think he is here for something positive but unfortunately he tends to get very superior and arrogant. So I wish he'd drop that crap but he probably cannot.

bunny

[d'smom]

*not that I don't usually understand folks here, but this situation is more powerful, conflict-laden, and potentially confrontational than most, so it is a place where many of us might shy away from trying to deal with it, or would deal with it ineffectively-- in my family, conflict was full-on banned and I had no idea how to deal with it until I was taught as an adult-- and even now it's not my favorite thing.*


this may be getting OT but it struck me as reading this - I agree this was a time of 'conflict' and also a time of self-definition for individuals and the 'group' - and as such very fruitful and powerful.   'conflict' can be a time for being tested, for defining boundaries, for learning where your strengths are and what your values are.  when there is never 'conflict' you may never learn where your limits are, where you stand on things -really-, where your bottom line is.

i wonder if this isnt why so many of our families resisted 'conflict' so completely. <my family was totally conflict-phobic - they were totally aggressive and destructive - but healthy conflict was forbidden> becuase it allows you to DEFINE YOUR BOUNDARIES........ in a place where boundaries are not allowed - neither would anything that strengthens or defines them............ just a thought.   

i dont want to feed the ilusion that im inappropriately angry by saying i appreciate conflict. however,  i do. i always have. its a time to be tested and find out whats what. it doesnt have to be unhealthy.

[longtire]

Most of the time, I read every post to this board.  Yes, I'm here for myself and to get the fantastic drops of wisdom that others post here.  But, at the same time, what is best for me is also to provide support for others and help when I can.  I had told myself for so long that I was worthless, ineffective and even poisonous to relationships that I need to prove otherwise.  I fall back on some of the positive feedback I've gotten about that here when I start to worry that I am either still acting co-dependent or self-critisizing.  It is great to hear when someone tells me I have actually added something positive to the discussion.

It became obvious after the last round of Cosmic Joe postings that this person did not want to communicate their meaning here.  Maybe that is out of an aggrandizing sense of NPD or maybe they are just plain too scared to (same thing, actually).  I made a decision and set a boundary for myself that I would not cater to this person's "communication style" by trying to understand.  That sounds waaaayy too much like what I've tried to do with my wife by excusing her, "reading her mind" and trying to anticipate her.  I expect it would be just a fruitless in this situation as well.

Besides, when someone else posts even a semi-lucid post, I am able to understand just fine.  In fact, it usually gets me thinking about that topic and related issues in my own life and sitrs up my own issues.  Sometimes, I get a sense of something related that the poster mentioned and I ask about it.  That all seems like a reasonable system of relating to me.  These cryptic posts, hoiwever, are just that, cryptic.  Encoded as to disguise meaning.  They are consistently that way and that tells me this person fundamentally doesn't want to communicate the message, though the method of communication is a meta-message of itself.

So I ignore this person's postings for the most part.  I did still scan through the thread (coey again  ) and read other people's replies.  I found it a pretty boring thread until people started posting about giving up and stimulating some big issues and a lot of discussion all around.  Then it got fascinating and it has really made me think a lot of this through.  I must also admit that I keep hoping to look at this person's posting one day and see a "normal"  format to the message that they might be finally ready to talk.  I just don't hold my breath, and it didn't even occur to me until right now, but I don't feel the least bit guilty about this all.  Quite the opposite, I feel freed and powerful while still being able to be compassionate (no longer at my own expense, though!).

[miss piggy]

Hello everyone,

What a thoughtful bunch we are!  I was going to write a very long post, but I think it would just rehash what many have said very beautifully (and clearly).  So I'll just add this:

For communication to happen, two things have to occur: a message is sent (speaker) and the message is received (listener). 

If there is static on the line, a foreign (!) language, or broken connection etc, communication ceases.

That's it.  And notice, I didn't say agreement or noise, just communication.   

my two cents, Miss Piggy

[Portia]

I just paged back about 7 pages of the board to find someone. I didn't realise. I've not been reading of late (explanation). Sorry. I underestimated er, *you*, probably. How awful. Vunil in particular, nope, I wouldn't think of saying 'bigot' btw. I opened my mouth without knowing the situation and that's pretty dumb. haha, not 'dumb' enough perhaps!  :roll:Night.

[vunil]

I didn't know!  Who is Cosmic Joe?  Great name, I must say.