Trying to Understand N's Victims

[amethyst]

Hi Ceemee, To use something from AA and Al-anon, your sister has her own higher power, her own path, and her own life lessons that she needs to learn. In all probabability, she will be ok. She seems to me to be taking care of herself in the best way she knows how at this time. Distancing from an abusive family situation is very normal in many stages of healing. Not having been raised in an organized religion, I don't have a prejudice either way about how good as people thel the paternall pastor and therapist wife may be, but they may be helping your sister reparent herself. If it all blows up, your sister has survived an abusive childhood where she didn't get her needs met and will probably survive this too, maybe even further along on the journey to healing. 

I happen to think that the best thing we can do as siblings, as friends, as parents, and as spouses, is to let those whom we love know that we love them and that we respect them enough to let them have their own struggles and find their own answers. To me it is all about respect and boundaries. I can't give somebody my experience. I can share who I am, but everyone who is searching for emotional healing has his or her own process and time-table.

For me, that means shedding the old roles of birthorder, like "the big sister" or "the decisionmaker." I can relate to you because I am  the oldest sibling and have some oldest child characteristics that can just come to the fore if I don't pay attention. If I am not aware that they are not appropriate, they can can wreck every day situations that don't require a decisionmaker...who needs a decisionmaker at a party, for instance? On the other hand, in an emergency, having that attribute can be helpful, if, and only if, I am the one there that is really qualified to make decisions. We can drag this birth order stuff around, sometimes unaware, until we have an epiphany and decide to stop with it already.

[wokeupatlast]

As for sucking it up and getting on with it...that worked for me for a large part of my life.  It might have continued working if I hadn't married mr. entitlement and by doing so, just re-ignited the same old flames of self-doubt and co-dependency.  So now in my middling years, the palliative effects of sucking it up and getting on with it are not working.  But talking here does help a great deal.  The trouble with trying to be "strong" and getting over the past it is that we now have an an additional problem in our lives:  we are dealing with the seriously disturbed one who has created the conflict in our lives and who can confabulate until the cows come home about how it is "not their fault" plus we have to fix ourselves so we can have a normal life.   Who's going to survive intact?  The seriously disturbed one or the one with the resources to suck it up?  And, I guess the bottom line is why should we have to suck it up....OK,,,,I know ....The proper term is "internalize it".  Sucking it up just has that visceral connotation of what a lot of us have had to do.
   

Interesting that someone else uses the "suck it up" line.  That is what I told my NPD/BPD wife in February after we had been through two years of non-stop medical crises (heart attack, stroke, heart surgery, heart arrhythmias) and when things were just getting back to normal she started in on how she was depressed and suicidal and needed to get therapy (which she uses as a weapon since no one has diagnosed her personality disorders to date.)  I know it wasn't a very caring thing to say but I as in full blown PTSD after all the illnesses (I have a history of serious illnesses in my past relationships and family). I had been sucking it up through all six hospitalizations and I thought that finally I was going to get my turn at healing.  But of course with her NPD she couldn't let the attention turn to me.

No sucking it up doesn't work real well in the long run, but it does get one through a crisis where falling apart is a worse option.  At least that's what I learned in my family of origin.  I think that now rather than suck it up, though, I would just excuse myself and say I'm sorry this is too much for me and you'll have to find another healthcare advocate.  Then I would run, not walk, to therapy and take care of myself.

Despite my two years of devotion to her medical problems I am still be divorced on fault grounds of controlling and abusive behavior.  I'm sure the "suck it up" line will come up in court. 

So does anyone else "internalize"?

[jordanspeeps]

the language, "sucking it up," "internalizing" "visceral" all connote the havoc one wreaks on his/her body when they hold things inside.  a lot of this goes on with victims of Ns, seeking to avoid Nconfrontations.  others, especially those of us who have recognized the disorder(s) in our undiagnosed loved ones, do the lionshare of the internalizing.  what it does, i'm afraid is not just emotionally damaging, but can be, as wokeupatlast explains, deleterious to our own health.  we should seek treatment for what ails us whether it be emotional or physical.  "bottling it up,"  that's the stuff of heart disease, hypertension, stroke, and even cancer.   worry and stress kill.  we should find outlets and treatment therapies.  our health is on the line, and despite our past pains, we owe it to ourselves, not our Nloved ones to stay robust (and for our nonNloved ones).

tif

[vunil]

Wow wow wow!  I am so happy for you and in awe of how well it went, how much you learned in such a short time just by reading and thinking and trying to figure things out, and, how well you enacted what you had learned when the time came.  That was really brave and I am so happy it was fruitful.  Sometimes those meetings aren't-- if your sister hadn't been processing things herself, she may have stared at you like you were insane, or felt uncomfortable, or something.  She might have wanted you back in your old role. 

Warm and fuzzy may be a lot to ask for after such an exhausting conversation, but in the absence of that I think things went as well for you as they possibly could.  Congratulations.  I love how your sister was able to be strong and firm in her conversation with you-- I bet as you all re-establish your connection that you'll actually enjoy her a lot more, and vice-versa.

Wow, again.  Applause.

[vunil]

I don't know.  Just looking appropriately shocked is probably all she needed-- knowing others recognize that the abuse is horrible is very therapeutic (sounds weird, but it is).  I would want to kick his ass, too.  I hope your mother responds appropriately-- I get the impression your sister will wait until she knows she'll be ok even if the response isn't great before she tells her.  I hope so, at least.

This must all be hard on you, too. Knowing that such an evil person was around.

[miss piggy]

Hello Ceemee and Vunil,

C, when I read your post, I too was sitting here going "wow!"  I think most of us here hope for these moments when the truth is allowed in the room.  It's so encouraging when a strained relationship can move forward to effective communication.  I agree with V that just listening, truly listening and acknowledging what you heard is enough.  Not only is it enough, it can very often be better than responding with action. 

I think it's natural that if we care about someone, we want to chase away their pain or reduce it somehow with whatever means (appropriate or otherwise) that we have.  I used to wonder what to say to people in deep grief over a loved one's death.  Then I learned through others that just sitting with other people with the pain in the room is one of the most giving things a person can do.  It's hard because we're used to talking when we're with others, conversing, or something. 

Again, WOW!  this is just such a great step towards a new kind of sisterhood.  Thank you for writing to us here about it.  Take care, MP

[amethyst]

Hello Ceemee and Vunil,

C, when I read your post, I too was sitting here going "wow!"  I think most of us here hope for these moments when the truth is allowed in the room.  It's so encouraging when a strained relationship can move forward to effective communication.  I agree with V that just listening, truly listening and acknowledging what you heard is enough.  Not only is it enough, it can very often be better than responding with action. 

I think it's natural that if we care about someone, we want to chase away their pain or reduce it somehow with whatever means (appropriate or otherwise) that we have.  I used to wonder what to say to people in deep grief over a loved one's death.  Then I learned through others that just sitting with other people with the pain in the room is one of the most giving things a person can do.  It's hard because we're used to talking when we're with others, conversing, or something. 

Again, WOW!  this is just such a great step towards a new kind of sisterhood.  Thank you for writing to us here about it.  Take care, MP

(((Ceemee))) and (((Miss Piggy))) and (((Vunil))) I second all of it.

And Ceemee, when you say that you are going to let her handle it, that is so healthy. Your sis just needs your love and validation. Sometimes an expression of shock and silence is the best validation one can give.

I'd love to kick your step-father's butt into next year. I am sure all of us would.

[Plucky]

I sometimes wonder does any woman leave this earth without being sexually abused??
CeeMee

I know how you feel CeeMee, sometimes it just feels like the rot and sickness is everywhere.  I look at everyone and wonder what their sordid story is. 
I brought home a Shirley Temple movie for the kids (LittleMiss Marker) and only watched 15 minutes of it before I stopped it in disgust. I don't know if it was me or what.  I saw her being presented as a sex object (yes!  Shirley TEMPLE) and basically it all looked like child abuse to me!  I can't tell if it is my own warped projections.  The plot line was a child left by a gambler with a bookie as a marker (collateral) and the 'father' didn't come back for her.   Has anyone seen this?  Is it me?  Have I hijacked?  I'm sorry.

Anyway CeeMee, if there are women who have not been abused, I don't think this is the place to find them.
Plucky

[amethyst]

((((Ceemee)))) I don't think there is a woman who has not suffered some form of sexual abuse...if not in childhood, then at school, the workplace or out walking down the street.


I'm an incest survivor and it goes back many generations in my family. My daughter was molested by my ex husband after I had divorced him, so I had somehow managed to find a partner in my early 20's that would eventually turn out to be a perpetrator. My current hubby, not an abuser, is also an incest survivor. It goes back many generations in his family too. I used to cynically say that "it's the gift that keeps on giving."

With incest, there are three types of abuse. This is going to be rather graphic, so I will warn you in advance. I am using the mildest examples that I know of in my own particular family.

One is overt incest, where the perpetrator physically touches the child in a sexual way...or in a way that feels wrong and dirty...or where the perp gets the child to touch him.. My father in law used to have my sister in law bathe him when she was a little girl. He didn't touch her inappropriately, but he set her up to have to touch him and see him naked.

Covert abuse does not involve touch, but might include acts like leering, making dirty comments, walking around exposed or semi-exposed, calling the child sexualized names, telling dirty jokes. Three of my dad's favorite words for me were "slut, whore and tramp." He started calling me those names when I was about 8 or 9. He also took great pleasure in calling all women "stupid c*nts," a word I can't stand to this day. My father in law wanted to talk about my daughter's development in a very inappropriate way, leering at me all the while.

Emotional incest is when the parent expects the child to assume the parental role. My mother would confide her marital difficulties to me and ask my advice. I found out about Al-anon when I was about 10 and always suggested it. One of my mom's favorite comments to me was that I was her best friend and "If I can't trust you to listen to me, who can I trust?" That's pretty damn pathetic when a 40 year old is confiding that stuff to an 11 year old.

Of course, these three categories can overlap. When my mother talked about her sex life with me, that was covert abuse. If my dad came downstairs half naked in his underwear, called me names, commented on my cup size and then pinched my butt, that was overt incest.

From your reaction to your step dad, I firmly believe that he was covertly abusing you. 

[amethyst]

I sometimes wonder does any woman leave this earth without being sexually abused??
CeeMee

I know how you feel CeeMee, sometimes it just feels like the rot and sickness is everywhere.  I look at everyone and wonder what their sordid story is. 
I brought home a Shirley Temple movie for the kids (LittleMiss Marker) and only watched 15 minutes of it before I stopped it in disgust. I don't know if it was me or what.  I saw her being presented as a sex object (yes!  Shirley TEMPLE) and basically it all looked like child abuse to me!  I can't tell if it is my own warped projections.  The plot line was a child left by a gambler with a bookie as a marker (collateral) and the 'father' didn't come back for her.   Has anyone seen this?  Is it me?  Have I hijacked?  I'm sorry.

Anyway CeeMee, if there are women who have not been abused, I don't think this is the place to find them.
Plucky

((((Plucky)))) Your observation of Shirley Temple is correct...you were right on.  I read some articles about it and I was shocked. Later I saw a movie and just about barfed. They made the kid into a junior Mae West. I am sure Shirley's movies were a pedophile's dream.

Remember Jon Benet-Ramsey? Another barf when I saw the pageant videos. Another pedophile's dream. 

[Plucky]

Amethyst,
thank you for those definitions.  That really clarified things for me.  I had no idea that risque comments and leering qualified as abuse. 
And thanks for validating what I thought was my sick reaction to wholesome little Shirley Temple.  Where are those ariticles?  I am going to try to get the library to get rid of the movie. I feel nauseous.
Plucky

[amethyst]

Amethyst,
thank you for those definitions.  That really clarified things for me.  I had no idea that risque comments and leering qualified as abuse. 
And thanks for validating what I thought was my sick reaction to wholesome little Shirley Temple.  Where are those ariticles?  I am going to try to get the library to get rid of the movie. I feel nauseous.
Plucky

Hi Plucky,  Here are three from the web.

http://xroads.virginia.edu/~MA01/Lundy/childsexual.html

http://www.ndsu.edu/RRCWL/V5/ohm.html

http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1285/is_1_34/ai_112482974

I believe the first article I read was in a magazine. The first here article shows pictures and there is absolutely no doubt that Shirley Temple was sexualized. In some of the poses she looks like an infantile Mae West. God knows, I love Mae West herself. She is hilarious and over-the-top, poking fun at her own stereotype. But it is sickening to turn a child into Mae West.

[amethyst]

Hi CeeMee, I am not an Oprah worshipper. I admire her accomplishments and think she did some fabulous work in films. I find her show interesting at times, but certainly not groundbreaking. I heartily dislike her magazine, O, but then I heartily dislke most women's magazines. On the other hand, her book club promoted some authors that would never have reached the best-seller list otherwise, so Oprah, or whoever reviewed and selected the books, showed great taste...the books were excellent. We don't see former associates or employees coming out and saying that Oprah was impossible to work for, the way we have with Rosanne and Rosie O'Donnell.

I know women that stop their lives to watch Oprah every single day. I have never been able to understand that.

I think that anyone as successful as Oprah probably has  N characteristics. Whether her N characteristics are toxic, we probably never will know. The Hermes incident may shed some light on the "real Oprah" but on the other hand, it might have been a true misunderstanding. When someone says they always knew they were destined for greatness, that does get my hinky meter going....lol...that does sound pretty N.  A person of great accomplishments but more modesty might say instead, "I consider myself extremely fortunate. I worked very hard and was clear about my goals, but basically I was in the right place at the right time."

What I am trying to say is there is narcissism in all of us. A good healthy dose of it is necessary for survival. Whether Oprah's is overboard, only time will tell.

[amethyst]

Amethyst,

Thanks for the insight.  Where did you learn about the types of abuse?.  Can you refer me to an article or book?  This is all new information, and I need to process it.  You've touched on some areas that are VERY close to home for me.



 

I found out about the types of incest at a retreat for incest survivors. We were given the definitions and the tools to name what had happened in our families of origin and understand why it felt so wrong. Of course, I was in touch with the overt incest and knew that was wrong, but to discover that there was all this other stuff that went on was earthshaking and also very empowering. 

I have read many books. I primarily used The Courage to Heal because my father molested me many times, as well as indulging in the other two types. My mother was a covert and emotional incest abuser. I don't recommend the Courage to Heal as the first book or something to use unless you are in therapy or are getting some other type of support that deals with incest.

I can give you some booklists from Amazon, but I think the best thing is to go to a Borders or Barnes and Noble and go through their self help section on sexual abuse and incest. See if a particular book is addressing your issues, read it well first before purchasing.

Here is a booklist from Amazon on emotional and covert incest.
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/listmania/list-browse/-/3BR60XNXG7YBP/102-3789340-2563312

Here is an article that mostly addresses overt incest. Believe me, the covert and the emotional is just as damaging.

http://vinland.org/scamp/institute/incest.html

[jordanspeeps]

hey guys:

ceemee:

I guess what I am trying to understand is whether it is the abuse and suffering that most women experience growing up or is it some other factor(s), that cause(s) us to fall short

only recently have i begun to emerge from a 2 year regression regarding the sexual abuse i experienced as a child.  i was 30 and was well on my way to success in my career and life when i was blindsided with the "reality" of my life.  i guess my head had been "in the clouds" for the previous 15 years.  i was convinced by my Nmother to push my sexual abuse incidents (there were three separate incidents before i was 15) into the back of my mind and succeed in spite of them.  to make her proud, i did just that.  classic overachieving, or shall i say overcompensating, is what followed.  unless i became a superlative at whatever i attempted, i was not pleased with myself.  i was able to accomplish much in the 15 years after the last rape incident until 2 years ago.  i shut down.  i gave up all my friends, i didn't leave the house much, i took up smoking marijuana in my basement and would be prone to fits of crying alone, for no obvious reason.  i was emotionally unstable and quite needy for acceptance despite being withdrawn. my hubby and i were not communicating well, in the beginning, and i felt it was me against the world.  

learning about NPD saved me.  once i realized that it wasn't me, and that even the sexual abuse was the result of parental negligence and apathy, i began to come back to myself.  i stopped thinking that there was something inherently nasty or sexual about me.  i stopped thinking that i had a "abuse me" sign on my forehead and that all men were disgusting, innocence-stealing, girl-hating, one-track-mind bastards.  dealing with the sexual abuse was key though.  i'm still not through it, completely, though.  i was really upset during the michael jackson trial, for some reason.  i felt so sorry for the accuser and i just knew how things were going to turn out for him despite everyone's gut suspicion that mj probably did it.  i projected i guess.  i eventually got tired of crying and being sad all the time.  i wanted happiness for myself and more importantly, i didn't want my 4 year old to grow up witnessing a depressed, pitiful, poor excuse of a mother.  i need to be stable for her.

and amethyst: thank you for the eloquent derscriptions/explanations.  i plan to check out the articles.  i've experienced all three types of abuse and it really puts incest and sexual abuse during childhood in the proper prospective.

tif

oh, and hands-off oprah!  i drank the kool-aid.  i'm a card-toting lover of all things oprah!  just kidding, she's been kinda weak lately with all the celebrity interviews and stuff and i haven't bought her mag in several months....  but nonetheless!