Author Topic: Hurricane Katrina Apathy?  (Read 34013 times)

Portia

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Re: Hurricane Katrina Apathy?
« Reply #45 on: September 03, 2005, 12:51:29 PM »
From north of London UK, it feels to me like…..the big rich parent can’t look after itself.

If the US can’t/won’t prepare well; can’t/won’t move fast enough; can’t/won’t protect its weakest and most vulnerable ‘children’…..

…if the richest country in the world has citizens murdering each other after 5 days….then…we’re all alone, we’re all nothing to our governments (parents), we’re all responsible for ourselves, deciding our own actions, and no-one will look after us. And life is very precarious, more so than we might have thought.

Potentially scary stuff.

bliz

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Re: Hurricane Katrina Apathy?
« Reply #46 on: September 03, 2005, 01:25:22 PM »
Taking this thinking to the next possible conclusion, I presume the UK should have seen the terrorist attacks coming and been prepared to avoid it, because they had been forewarned?

d'smom

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Re: Hurricane Katrina Apathy?
« Reply #47 on: September 03, 2005, 02:27:01 PM »
well.......

they say the quickest way to kill a dinner party is discussing religion or politics.....

we are proving that one true at least......   :?

but people, its not just us.  60 minutes straight out called this 'a disgrace'.

same with ted koppel on nightline. these are respected objective journalists who have covered all kinds of disasters all over the world. local govt in the affected area as well as senators and congressmen are complaining. even pres bush himself, has said that things have gone wrong with this response.

plenty of environmental scientists have been on record saying that this has been foreseen for decades, but was not prepared for at least partly due to budgetary reasons.

lets try to stay objective people. you cant learn from mistakes if you dont acknowlege them.

now i ======really======= dont want to hurt anyone so thats all i want to say. religion + politics = dead dinner party.
peace all.

bliz

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Re: Hurricane Katrina Apathy?
« Reply #48 on: September 03, 2005, 03:29:04 PM »
I could have sworn there was a Marta post in here.

vunil

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Re: Hurricane Katrina Apathy?
« Reply #49 on: September 03, 2005, 04:30:51 PM »
I was going to post the same thing d's mom posted.  So now I don't have to :)

It isn't really airchair quarterbacking or whoever-bashing or even politics.  I mean, it's clear the mayor (democrat) and the feds (mostly republicans) messed up-- see the countless articles on it.  Even my local paper, which is very disinterested in anything controversial, especially about the current administration, had a bunch of articles on what went wrong.  Paul Krugman has an editorial running today in syndication that really sums a lot of things up.  Now, there is no one everyone likes, so maybe you don't like Paul Krugman, so I guess check out the source of your choice.  If the New York Times isn't your cup of tea, the Wall Street Journal is saying all of the same things, so it is maybe a good source.

It is too bad that things went so badly;  I don't think it's pessimistic to say that they did, though.  Somehow I think we've gotten to a place in this country where criticizing anything is considered bad form or not patriotic or something.

 But in case this feels like politics to someone, I'll be quiet now!  It is a little off topic, I agree :)

Cadbury

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Re: Hurricane Katrina Apathy?
« Reply #50 on: September 03, 2005, 04:46:55 PM »
Not presuming to speak for Portia here, but what I got from her post was that if such a thing can happen in a country like America; a country that the world looks up to in many respects, then what hope do we (as humanity) have. That was what I thought she was talking about. I really don't see how that linked to the comment about the London bombings...


Anyway, I did want to extend my prayers and hope to anyone affected by the awful conditions left in the wake of Katrina. I don't have much money, but I am donating what I can to the American Red Cross.


bliz

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Re: Hurricane Katrina Apathy?
« Reply #51 on: September 03, 2005, 05:00:56 PM »
In an effort to get back to the topics at hand, I will attempt to put it a self actualizing, reflective, "taking responsibility for our own feelings"  way.

IMO, criticizing is an easy way to deflect the horror at hand and avoid feeling it in your gut.  It places the emotions somewhere "out there" .  Criticizing avoids feeling the horror by turning it into anger, which many people are more comfortable with. 

Unless you have been in a similar situation, I dont think you really know what it is like, and what the obstacles are. 
                                             ********
As an attempt at humor:  "Objective journalism" is an oxymoron in today's "dog eat dog" media world.

vunil

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Re: Hurricane Katrina Apathy?
« Reply #52 on: September 03, 2005, 05:12:14 PM »
bliz, you seem to be implying that people who disagree with you must not be taking responsibility for their feelings and/or are unable to feel sad feelings without turning them into anger.

a more efficient explanation might just be that they disagree with you, no? given so many folks on all different sides of all different aisles are saying the same thing, you may be right that all of them are just not well-adjusted, or it could just be they have different facts and/or see the facts differently.  Making it into a personal failing on our part isn't really fair.


Portia

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Re: Hurricane Katrina Apathy?
« Reply #53 on: September 03, 2005, 05:23:26 PM »
Bliz are you attacking me for stating my feelings? If so why? I’m likening the US (government) to a bad parent and the rest of us citizens of other countries as children to possibly less competent (rich) parents. I wasn’t saying anything about the UK’s ability to respond to anything. You think I trust my own government? (No I do not.)

Aside: Do you think I am also posting as Marta? Just in case, I want to assure you I’m not: I only post as me. I’ve had problems with being accused (wrongly) of being multiple posters in the past and it’s a sore point with me. Sorry if I read that completely wrongly. It’s easy to misunderstand sometimes, or often, even.

What I’m saying is: this is bloody awful and tragic all round and what’s more, much of it, avoidable. What the hell are people doing being kept ‘safe’ in locations without adequate water, food and security? Yes it was a mess up. I’m angry every time I read anything about it. I’m shouting at the news broadcasts: GET THE PEOPLE OUT.

Christ! The police/feds whoever they are have been busy protecting property from being looted while children and women are being raped and killed. Babies dying. Is a computer or a TV more damn valuable than a human life?

Sorry folks. I’m very angry. I’m angry at the bad parents who let their children die while they protect the interests of insurance companies! I am not angry with anyone on this board (unless you’re making decisions at The Pentagon?).

This isn’t meant to be political in the least. This is meant to be about human rights, human life versus bloody money.

Right. I don’t usually get this angry. But bad things are happening in the richest country in the world and that scares the shit out of me. If it happens in NO, it can happen in my neighbourhood tomorrow. And I’ve always ‘known’ that. I just don’t want to see it happening. Because only criminals have guns in ‘my’ country! Shit!!!!!!! (Okay bad joke but hey, I gotta break that rant-fest eh?)

Sallying Forth: no apathy from me. I haven’t trusted myself to come to the board until today.

Brigid

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Re: Hurricane Katrina Apathy?
« Reply #54 on: September 03, 2005, 05:47:59 PM »
Portia,

I do not agree that stopping the looting has anything to do with money.  That equipment would be ruined by the water anyway, so it would all be considered a total loss from an insurance standpoint (I worked in the business for 7 years) anyway.  What they are trying to do is restore order so that rescue efforts can take place in a safe environment.  When you have bus drivers refusing to enter the city to evacuate people because they are afraid for their lives, that is certainly not going to make a bad situation better.  Also, everyone seems to be ignoring the fact that there was 4 feet of water on the roadways, no means of communication and a ton of people who ignored the order to evacuate. 

If we want to point fingers, why not at the dumshits who built the city below sea level back in the 1700's. 

People need to take some responsibility for themselves.  They don't and then it's the governments fault that they aren't being saved fast enough.  I have great pity for the sick, disabled and otherwise unable to fend for themselves, but able-bodied individuals should have done what they were asked to do--get to shelter.

I'm sure many things associated with this disaster could have been handled better.  I'm guessing this will teach us much about emergency preparedness for the future, just as 911 did.  I think energy would be better spent finding solutions than placing blame.

Brigid


Portia

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Re: Hurricane Katrina Apathy?
« Reply #55 on: September 03, 2005, 07:19:32 PM »
Hi Brigid. Thanks for posting. I think I agree with you. Except for the 'blame' bit. I think, and I don't know all the facts (who ever does?) that somewhere along the line, folks thought they would be safe at the dome etc. The Mayor I guess thought so too. There's been some bad management and crap communications and the result is awful. But it was awful days ago and those in positions of power and authority to make things happen - didn't act fast enough. They knew what was happening (we did and they can see our news!) and have dithered. Positions of power carry responsibility and accountability. But I don't want to blame right now: I want the people out. It's going to be an enormous task afterwards but please, let's not have any more atrocious things happen.

Bliz: I'm not mad at you okay? You want to defend your country and that's okay. I won't defend mine or yours, not those in power when they f*** up.

Take care all.


vunil

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Re: Hurricane Katrina Apathy?
« Reply #56 on: September 03, 2005, 07:30:50 PM »
Quote
People need to take some responsibility for themselves.  They don't and then it's the governments fault that they aren't being saved fast enough.  I have great pity for the sick, disabled and otherwise unable to fend for themselves, but able-bodied individuals should have done what they were asked to do--get to shelter.


Ok, now I am getting mad.  People didn't evaculate because they could not afford to!  They did not have the gas money or the car to drive them or anywhere to go.  There were not enough busses to take everybody who wanted to go.  The mayor and governor did not order enough busses.  It is easy to find articles on this if you want to learn about it. 

Many of them did not evaculate because they had children or medical issues and could not evacuate. Many *did* evcluate.  THOUSANDS!  To overcrowded horrible facilities with no food and water for them, and rampant crime.  To blame people for this thing that absolutely was not their fault-- that just happened to them-- is really unfair, I think.  They expect to be rescued because that's what we pay taxes to the government for-- that's why we have the national guard, FEMA, etc.  It isn't because they are lazy or don't want to help themselves-- it is because they are in a disaster and many of them may die.  I don't think it's fair to blame the victims.  And I have noticed this disaster has inspired more of that kind of argumentation than any disaster I have lived through in my forty-odd years.  I am sorry to say this, but I think that this argumentation is more likely because of the race of the victims. I never *once* heard anyone say about the 9-11 victims in the second tower "it is their fault they didn't get out after the first tower was hit" or "why did they expect to be rescued?  it was up to them to get out.  They should take responsibility."

It isn't even true that people were ordered to evacuate. In New Orleans the messages were very mixed until the last minute.  Again, it is easy to read about this and how the time table developed-- no way was there some kind of unambiguous message to the public, and an easy way for them to respond to the message.  Why assume it is the victims' fault? 

Sorry.  I am feeling pretty angry now.  I guess I join other angry people on this board  :x  Maybe I should stop reading this thread.


daylily

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Re: Hurricane Katrina Apathy?
« Reply #57 on: September 03, 2005, 08:02:33 PM »
Does any of us really know how much of this was "avoidable" in New Orleans?  The official "disaster plan" for the city recognized that tens of thousands would be unwilling or unable to leave.  The official plan was to put them in the Superdome.  This is what happened.  There was neither the time nor the resources to do a house-to-house evacuation, forcing people onto buses--which probably would have left them at the Superdome anyway.  And in this country, government would have been severely criticized for forcibly separating people from their homes.  At worst--and it is pretty bad--the inadequate planning left the main evacuation sites woefully understocked, and I can't for the life of me understand why there wasn't a law enforcement presence assigned to each site.

If the storm had come and gone as it initially seemed to have done, things would have been OK.  But it didn't.  No one knew that the levees would break to the extent that they did, and I suspect that is how the Superdome and the convention center came to be without adequate supplies.  But once that happened, delayed response was inevitable.  I didn't really understand how difficult access is until I saw footage of the convoy moving through New Orleans.  Those amphibious military vehicles were just barely above water.  If those vehicles can't make it, what vehicle could?

In a situation like this, looting is a symptom that larger, and much more dangerous, lawlessness is erupting.  I don't believe this is about protecting property, let along the interests of insurance companies.  I believe it is about restoring, or enforcing, order in a chaotic situation.  The people who are looting the tv's and jewelry and randomly shooting have at least some responsibility here.  Food, clothing, toiletries--fine.  I don't really blame people for breaking into the local supermarket.  I blame them terribly for losing control of themselves to the point where they can't differentiate between survival and common thievery.  And I have no interest in making excuses for common thieves.  No one's survival depends upon grabbing as much free stuff as their arms can hold.

I must admit that Portia's statement, "I'm angry at the bad parents who let their children die while they protect the interests of insurance companies" makes me quite angry in turn.  No amount of discomfort can excuse raping a child.  Why is the United States government more responsible for that terrible crime than the rapist?  What about being uncomfortable and anxious absolves the rapist of responsibility?  When did the government become responsible for basic humanity?  Similarly, I disagree with Vunil that the "rampant crime" in the evacuation sites was just "something that happened" and was "absolutely not their fault."  If it's absolutely not their fault, then who's committing the rampant crime?  I am not blaming the victim, but I am making a disinction between victim and criminal.  All the evacuees are victims--of poor planning, of natural disaster, of bureaucratic delay and incompetence--but some of the victims have taken to exploitation and violence, and I cannot explain that away.  To do so would be to lump tens of thousands of decent, caring citizens in with a small number of inhuman monsters.  And in my book, that's racist.  That's saying that we should somehow not hold people responsible for their behavior because of their race, and that's a statement I will never make.  But I am not saying Vunil explicity made that statement, I am just saying that the "it's not their fault" mentality can lead that way.

No one expected the levees to give as they did.  No one expected the rescue to take as long, or be as complicated, as it is.  I think that explains a lot about what happened, but it doesn't make what happened any easier to take.  My heart goes out to people who are stranded in incredible discomfort and unsanitary conditions.  But I do not excuse any people for behaving like animals, and I do not hold my government responsible for the fact that some of them do.

Everyone here is entitled to his or her opinion.  We don't have to agree, and we won't.  In adding my voice to the discussion, I am not attempting to shout anyone else down.  I respect everyone's right to say what he or she thinks, and I hope they will extend the same respect to me.

daylily




bliz

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Re: Hurricane Katrina Apathy?
« Reply #58 on: September 03, 2005, 08:43:04 PM »
I've been gone for a few hours and looks like I have missed a lot.  I have no problem with people disagreeing with me.  Also, as you can tell I have no problem stating my opinion.  THe whole other poster thing...I dont know what you are talking about there.  The Marta thing is there was a post from Marta right after an earlier post today.  When I went back it was gone.  Can anyone explain that?  I am not as familiar with this board as some of you and I presume somebody deleted it...very weird.

Some of the work I have been doing on myself in the past several years,  has been about identifying and feeling your feelings when they arise, not digressing into worry, rage, doubt, blame etc.  It's a long story, but what I have learned I tried to share in an earlier post on this thread.  It was not made as an accusation on anyone else.  My point is when some are stuck in rage or outrage, something else is going on internally.  Some people who are codependant and yes, narcissists, can very easily get outraged or otherwise emotionally worked up over events that are happening far, far away as a means to avoid dealing with their own feelings and issues.

The other thing I am trying to share is, having been through some disasters from the standpoint of both a innocent bystander and on the helping end, I feel it is extrememly unrealistic and unjustified to sit back and scream at the TV, blame the city, state, federal government for not acting quickly enough.  It says to me that some people have no idea what a disaster of this magnitude involves as far as organizing  manpower, equipment, supplies, vehicles, routes, staging areas, etc, etc. What else are the various entities going to say, but I am sure we could have done things differently, better.  They are taking the high road while some are sitting in their easy chairs placing blame.  I will speak up against that and any other attacks on those who are trying to perform and organize rescue. 

d'smom

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Re: Hurricane Katrina Apathy?
« Reply #59 on: September 03, 2005, 09:03:14 PM »
hi vunil. please dont feel too upset. :(  brigid says that she has empathy for the sick/elderly/disabled/indigent...... the thing that is happenign though is that really most of those people -are- actualy sick/elderly/disabled/indigent...... so, we have empathy for them, we agree on that.

many who died so far were indeed elderly, diabetics, hospital patients,  etc etc....... almost every person who stayed that -isnt- elderly or disabled, appears extremely poor.

all --- something i have heard and that i think, is that this is exposing some possible cultural 'seams' that maybe were just not apparent before..... levels of poverty.... attitudes towards poverty..... & so on.

you know, 'how we treat the least of us'.  there is still lots of time to rise to the occasion.  we were a little 'deer in the headlights' at first but hopefully we will pull it together if only becuase of how bad it looks to the world.................  i do know, i was definitely frightened. im disabled. my town is poor.  you know. 

as for crime...... that is what happens when people feel disenfranchised and out of control unfortunately...... there will never be excuse for it but there are criminals everywhere, hurricane or not.

its not worth feeling upset over. we all agree that sick/elderly/indigent/children have every right to expect the govt to help....(i think).



oops bliz your post just came in - im glad you dont care if people disagree. i didnt think you did. :}   i must say,  i think that the criticism we're seeing is not as you characterise of misplacing emotions or blame, though that does happen..... nobody was doing this after the 9/11 disaster and that was certainly at least as horrifying and im sure people had even more right to feel 'angry' about that than this.  the public response was totally different in both cases and i think has reflected the reality of what was happening and was being reported through the eyes of the survivors.  if this reaction were due to misplaced emotion, it would have probably happened in both circumstances, but it didnt that i could tell.

ok - thats it for now.
dm