What is the point of this board again?

[mudpuppy]

Hi Portia and Brigid,

Not to respond for Mud, but I think that statement was made with tongue firmly planted in cheek.

The idea that my tongue was planted in my cheek just demonstrates the double standard that exists. For me to ascribe the same motives to people and ideas on the left that are routinely applied to people and ideas on the right, I had to have been joking right? Everybody knows people on the right are quite often evil while people on the left may be wrong occasionally but they never have evil motives. Not criticising you Brigid, just using what you said to make my point.
 

Mud, who the heck would you say that to?

I wouldn't say it to an individual on the board. I would ascribe it to a group or an idea or a political leader, the implication being that those on the board who are in the group or believe in the idea or support the leader are guilty as well.
Your question perfectly embodies the double standard that exists. You take it is as a given that no one of the left who espouses concern for the poor or different races or criticises Christians could possibly have the underlying motives I describe. And yet it is perfectly acceptable for people to remark on how racist, hateful and morally bankrupt someone from the right is or our entire country is. 
Its not even remarked on when the President is accused of hating or at best being indifferent to black people because the federal response to Katrina was slow. He's a Republican, of course he's a racist. Its a given. But if Bill Clinton stands by and twiddles his thumbs while two million Sudanese and another couple of million Rwandans are slaughtered, we can say he was lazy, but we can't possibly say he was a racist because hey, he's a Democrat.
The fact that you can't even see that the double standard exists is nine tenths of the problem.

Why does this stuff make you uncomfortable Mud?

Because it is unpleasant, rude and accusatory. It is like arguing with an N. They can make any outrageous comment they choose, accuse us of any despicable motive they want, but we are expected to remain reasonable. If we respond in kind then all hell breaks loose. Its the same double standard. Like I said, I have a family wherein I have to bite my tongue. Why come here for an imitation when I can have the real thing?
I would think it would be glaringly obvious why it makes me uncomfortable.

mud

PS. That was kind of a combo clever-groaner pun Stormy.

[dogbit]

Its a given. But if Bill Clinton stands by and twiddles his thumbs while two million Sudanese and another couple of million Rwandans are slaughtered, we can say he was lazy, but we can't possibly say he was a racist because hey, he's a Democrat.

Yup.  I wonder how many people are aware of the number of lives he wasted because politically, it did him no good.  Like, when he couldn't even leave the ramp of the plane to acknowledge the Africans he was supposed to be "helping" lest he might actually come into physical contact with them.   Bill Clinton is THE reason I changed parties.  It was always about him.  Ugh,,,,what a horrible person.  Sorry, I digress from the original goal of this board 

[vunil]

And yet it is perfectly acceptable for people to remark on how racist, hateful and morally bankrupt someone from the right is

I don't think anyone implied that someone from this list was all of these awful things, and certainly no one said it outright. Honestly, I just don't think people made those statements.  I know you may be hearing them, but I don't think anyone said them.  There were accusatory statements on both sides (I think I was the recipient of the most accusatory statements, actually, if you look back-- I think I was the only person directly attacked) but nothing got anywhere close to the above.

And of course people say Bill Clinton is/was evil.  An entire cottage industry built up over trashing him-- that's where political talk radio came from.  There are as many books acusing him and his wife of absolutely horrible crimes as there are about Bush, if not more.  On this board and elsewhere people who criticize the government are accused of not loving their country, of being sympathetic with our enemies, of not respecting our troops, etc.  It does go both ways. Here people who felt NO was in part Bush's fault were accused of not being able to feel sadness, of "bashing," of using the tragedy for political gain, and of not caring about the rescue and what matters.

So I guess I don't agree with the premise, sorry!  I know it's what you are feeling, but if people really thought those horrible things about you they wouldn't be reaching out to you now. 

[vunil]

Yup.  I wonder how many people are aware of the number of lives he wasted because politically, it did him no good.  Like, when he couldn't even leave the ramp of the plane to acknowledge the Africans he was supposed to be "helping" lest he might actually come into physical contact with them.   Bill Clinton is THE reason I changed parties.  It was always about him.  Ugh,,,,what a horrible person.  Sorry, I digress from the original goal of this board

Just a clarification question:  Is the post above ok, Mudpup?  Because it is WAY more personally acusatory than anything I have read about Bush here.  The closest people have come to accusing Bush has been to say that the federal government may have been slow to respond because of race. The entire federal government.  And every major newspaper, including conservative ones, has raised this possibility, so it is not personal to us here on this list.  The post above implies that Clinton does not want physical contact with black people (amazingly, since his best friend was black and he now lives in Harlem). 

Is that ok?  I'm just asking because I do see a double standard here for what kinds of things people are allowed to sa, depending on which side of the aisle they are on.

Ok, I'll stop.  But I couldn't help noting this.

[miss piggy]

Hi Mudpup and everyone,

This is a great discussion about influence overall and whose opinion "wins".  I'll bet we could open it up even wider if we keep going.  It all boils down to "whose side are you on?"  One videographer made it his life's mission to show the same type of discourse coming out of both the Jewish and the Palestinian political camps.  His point is "you're both doing/saying the same thing.  How is it better for you to do what you accuse the other of doing?"

I am reminded of a movie quote from Patton.  Patton explains to Bradley how his troops feel about him (Patton) saying "'He may be an SOB but he's our SOB." 

If I can have one more...years ago I saw a great NYer cartoon.  Sort of a caveman motif.  A little caveman holds up his hand with conviction saying "It is so!" the surrounding cavemen say, "No way!" "It is not" "Says who?" etc.
Then a giant caveman rises up over the horizon in the background.  "IT IS SO!"  The surrounding cavemen say "Oh yes!" "It's true!" "Verily!"  "You betcha!" 

These moments kinda sum it up for me.     MP

[Plucky]

Once again I'm coming in late but here I am with my possibly unpopular opinion.  I'm glad we are all so passionate about something.  I am pretty sure we will not let it destroy our community.

Mudpup, I think there are different ways to deal with conflict.
- avoidance.  The "I'm taking my ball and going home, and I'll only talk to a few people who have been nice to me..."  I've used this one.  Looks like you are familiar with it as well.
- attack.  My favorite is sarcasm and sneering.  Also has been extensively used by yours truly.  In fact, one of my favorites.
- My new favorite, proposed by Amethyst.  Turn around and look at your partner in conflict. Draw out the real reason for his/her zealous opposition.  Locate the buttons. Find out your own reasons.  Agree to disagree.

Thanks Amethyst!  I'm not even having a crisis and I learned something helpful and breakthroughlike!   Thanks for sharing your experience with your dad.
a newly grateful for the board
Plucky

[Plucky]

Forgot to mention why I think this is so triggering for most of us.  So many n victim issues arose from the plight of the survivors.

-  fairness.  this was brought up on the attorney thread. 
-  abandonment.
-  failure to have basic needs met.
-  lack of important information or any control concerning one's destiny.
-  being forced to witness violence, neglect, suffering, with no way to help or escape.
-  making desperate requests and not being heard by anyone.

We're up here to use our voices.  Let's not try to shut anybody up.
Plucky 

[amethyst]

hugs, mud.

people are in tremendous pain right now... and people in pain cry out to the Heavens in any and all words that come to them... and in sobs and screams when the words run dry. may God in his mercy know this too is prayer.

i fear for my country as I have never feared before in my life. i fear for friends and colleagues on the gulf coast, and for their loved ones, and their cherished animals.

but i also fear some of my countrymen in a way i never have before, either. i fear 'not counting'. i fear being one of the abandoned ones. this too is voicelessness. perhaps this is what much of the crying out is about.

people in texas have been angels of mercy... and I have heard that, in the areas around Houston, maybe elsewhere too, signs are being posted, saying: It Could Have Been Us.

I think we all feel that, and depending on what we have lived through to date, our reactions to it will differ. Pray for us, and for those who are ragged and homeless, and for those who did not make it... God rest their souls.

maranatha.

(((Stormchild))) This is where I am coming from too. I would like to work to see that nothing like this loss of life and a destruction of almost an entire city, which could have been prevented, ever happens again. NOLA, as many people are now discovering, is vital to the nation as a whole, so previous argument by some folks that it should not be rebuilt is totally bogus. I'm sure we would also rebuild San Francisco and LA should the big earthquakes happen.

Sadly, FEMA has not yet gotten into or dropped aid to the backwoods areas of Mississippi yet. People on their last gasp there too.

My anger is because our government seems to put its priorities backwards. Had the money been spent to build up the levees and replenish the wetlands around the boot of Louisiana, part of this disaster could have been averted. Instead of creating less bureaucracy, by putting FEMA into the Department of Homeland Security and firing anyone who disagreed with the President, FEMA became much less functional and more beaurocratic. Because of our dependence on fossil fuels, we have an unwinnable war in Iraq, fuel shortages and global warming. My fright and anger is because we are living under an administration that seems to be irrational, anti-science, very Darwinian in its social policies, and seems to operate with the assumption that the ultimate goal of society is profits. You can talk about compassion, but does a compassionate country have anyone living below the poverty line, which is ridiculously low anyway? Is anything going to change or is it going to be more of the same? My biggest fear is that there is going to be a whole bunch of rhetoric and kissy face among the movers and shakers and then we will be right back to business as usual. Our society is non sustainable the way it is. Change is going to be painful and complex, but to put off change is just going to make it more painful later. What I'm saying is not a left-right thing, bigguv-small guv, state vs fed, thing either.  

I am someone that spends lots of time getting facts that are pertinent to whatever situation arises, and what was done in Rwanda or by Bill Clinton (or by the French) has nothing to do with this situation, as far as I can see. When someone throws out those kind of arguments, the best I can do is say,"What does that have to do with this situation?" GWB certainly wasted no time in enlisting Bill Clinton to help him out of this mess. I am no Clinton worshipper by the way, but I don't think he was totally inept, which is what my gut, my heart and my head tells me about our current president. A good boss does not fire competent people who are experts that disagree with them....they find out why the expert disagrees. A good boss does not put somebody's college roommate who used to run an association for judging horseshows into a position of running an organization like FEMA. Turns out the guy that Bush fired, Mr. Witt, was correct. Bush looks like a classic N or worse, and I am frightened for the safety, wealth and health of our nation as a whole. And since the US is so powerful, I'm rather worried about the world too.

Another thing that I have never been able to understand is why people that are all for as little government and paying as little tax as possible are in favor of having a big army with lots of military spending???? Isn't the army federal big government????  

I watched PBS tonight. They had a special on Ben Franklin, which reminded me that of his aphorisms in Poor Richards Almanac was "A stitch in time saves nine." A few billion a few years ago could have saved untold costs and many lives today. I hope they spend the money now.

I believe that lost faith in the truthfulness and intentions of our leaders and uncertainty for our future as a people are painful for everyone to deal with. That's what is coming up on this board. It's certainly coming up for me. I think we need to talk about it and also to be respectful of eachother in our individual and collective attempts to find solutions. If we don't ask the questions and point out the lies and discrepancies, we won't find any answers at all....just like home.
   

[vunil]

SORRY I was so harsh earlier    I have NO idea how to talk about this stuff without becoming some kind of lawyerly burn the roof off storm the barn doors arguer.  Most of my political discussion, especially over e-mail/boards, has been confined to groups where everyone agrees.  It is really good for me to be here and to learn from you guys, and I hope that mudpup and dogbit speak to me again!

Something is beyond triggering for me in this topic (politics and the current administration especially).  I even started a thread about it.  Instead of feeling like one more topic, to me it feels like I have to throw down everything else that I may care about and ... I am not sure how to describe it.  I keep thinking things like-- this is just like the civil rights movement in the 60's! (I always think that would have felt terrible not to have been involved in that, to have stood by) or this is just like germany in the 30's (how cliched is that?  but when I was growing up movies and books about the holocaust were rampant and they had a huge effect on me).  Or, "this is just like Watergate!" (I would hate to be someone who defended Nixon until the end-- for some reason that idea really bothers me).

Why I think this about posts on a board, I do not know.  It does not feel N but rather like some sort of civic duty or something. The N part, I guess, is that I think what I post here matters, and I choose this false mattering over what does matter to me here, which is the comraderie and advice and wisdom. 

Does anyone else have this problem?  Do most of us have it?  I don't think I'm the only one who has it    Or I may be!  I know I am not the only one who has it out there in the world, because I have been at many social gatherings where someone goes off on a political rant and then the whole table/group is silent afterwards, staring at each other!  Do we just need to learn to talk about this stuff because in a lot of western cultures people don't?  Say what you want to about France, they are much better about political discussions than we are.  One reason I love it there is you can have a very knock-down-drag-out discussion of politics and it is completely allowed and everyone is friends afterwards, if not better friends.  Not that it helps them elect really fantastic leaders or anything

[bliz]

This discussion brought out strong feelings in us and I have no problem airing it out here.  I think part of our voicelessness has been an inability to express our feelngs, particularly when the situation has a lot of emotions.  IMO, some posters made political slams or slams against the US.  IMO, some of these posters would probably take the same tact in any political discussion.  The challege for me was to attempt to express my opinions without totally alienating others.  I dont know if I did that, but it was the intent. 

I would have liked to express myself more pointedly with some of the slammers, but occasionally just let it go.  We are all not going to agree. My point that some people use emoting about disasters or other "situations" to avoid dealing with their own issues, seemed to have been lost in the discussion or considered as an excuse for why people didnt agree with me.  Some will always rail against the establishment and some will be scared off of a heated discussion.  I believe it is possible for it all to be related to voicelessness.

[Brigid]

I have been actively avoiding getting into any more of these "political" discussions, but I felt the need to say one more thing on this thread. 

First, I never started any of the political rhetoric, but only responded to comments that were made, that strongly go against my own philosophies.  I never intended to personally attack anyone or their beliefs, but only to present that not everyone here feels that way.  After I was personally attacked on another thread I just walked away even though I was very tempted to respond in kind.

I came to this board as a respite from the conflict that existed in my life, not to find a place that causes me more anxiety.  I had enough of that throughout my childhood and I certainly don't need it now.

I wish you all well.

Brigid

[Sela]

Good morning all:

((((((Mud)))))), I haven't read the threads being discussed here yet but I just want to ask:

Are you ok?  I mean that in a real way, not as some insult.  These discussions seem to have really upset you and I just hope you...are ok.

When it comes down to it these are only words on a screen.  I just hope you are ok.

(((((((Brigid)))))), I haven't read the thread where you were attacked yet either (or maybe it's the same thread??).  I'm sorry that happened and I hope you are ok too.

Sometimes we lash out at the wrong people.  I hope if that happened, the person/s who did so will appologize to you and take responsibility for their behaviour.

I came to this board as a respite from the conflict that existed in my life, not to find a place that causes me more anxiety.

I'm sorry this is going on.  The world is cruel sometimes, including the cyber world.  It makes me feel anxious too.  Makes me want to cyber-clobber some people (picture hairy cave-like-woman weilding big meaty club, drooling, barefoot....approaching with teeth bared/born?   Spitting obsenities).   Ofcourse, that picture looks nothing like me but I just had to throw that in.  Never mind, I just mean that I wish there was a way for peace in the world...including here....in some way without all this banging about of clubs.

Peace to you Brigid and Mud and all.  Political shmitical.  We're here because we're trying to process the pain we've all endured/withstood/survived/buried/experienced/are/aren't aware of/need to voice/whatever.  We're not here to inflict more of it, are we?

That's what I think the point of this board is...a place to speak of it.

I don't like it when that speaking is against other people here.

If you're doing that....or you did it.....wake up.....say you're sorry......accept responsibility for acting inappropriately and get on with speaking of it... not displacing it.

Why come here for an imitation when I can have the real thing?

Bite your tongue Mud!!! ( just kidding again).

Ya why?  That's a good question.  Practice makes perfect?  Some people get their kicks that way?
Some may not be aware of the effect they are having?  Some speak first....think later?

Just words on a screen Muddy.  Don't let 'em really harm you, Ok?  Or really upset you.  On the end of the words are keys with fingers (and in my case toes) clicking away attached to hands, arms, shoulders, kneck, head, etc of some....person.

That person is here for why again?  To speak of what?

Are we so wrapped up in our own pain that we can't remember the next person is too?

I can do that ( ) some days.  Other days, I'm sorry for that.

Sela

[voxanne]

(((((mudpuppy)))))

I think I understand what you're saying. I have experienced it myself, although not in this forum, but I'm still new.

It's interesting in a psychological sense. Some people seem able to respond to differing points of view with civil discourse, and be respectful. This does not mean they don't have feelings, they do. But their feelings don't rule their words. Some people react emotionally to those who don't agree with them. They feel threatened when asked to defend their words logically. But their words can be caustic and hurtful, not because they are true, but because of the motive behind them. These reactions are meant to shut you down.
When you are called racist, homophobe child-eater, (and you KNOW you are none of these things) you are being told "SHUT UP! You don't deserve to HAVE A VOICE, because I DON'T LIKE what your voice is saying."
I agree with you that it is very N. But at the core of N is a terrified child. I have one myself. Maybe a lower case n is more appropriate.

Being new, I'm not sure who shut you down- or tried to- but to them:
It is not good to cast off your responsibility for your hurtful words by saying "Hey, sometimes I say things...." It sound so much like "Get over it already!" which to me means 'I don't CARE about you'.

Okay, I'll get off the soapbox already.

I'm very sensitive to being shut-down, shut-up, shut-out. It's unjust. It hurts so much.

Thanks for the forum Huh, I see this symbol means shock... I thought it looked kind of nerdy- glasses and all (that's how I see myself).

V

[mudpuppy]

Hi vunil,

When dogbit says Bill Clinton is personally corrupt she is insulting him personally. I have no problem with that, just as I have no problem with anyone calling George Bush a liar.
If dogbit had said he couldn't leave the ramp because liberals talk about concern for Africans but they really couldn't care less because deep down they're all closet racists, then it would not have been OK. It is at that point a stereotype and an insulting comment meant to condemn and silence civil discourse and is no longer a personal insult but is meant to put on the defensive and shame anyone who holds that position.

I believe I have gone down a rabbit trail on this double standard issue anyway. My original post was about the general tone here, and I stand by it. In fact I have to say the responses, for the most part, reaffirm my original post.

I hear many people telling me why the tone is hostile, angry and caustic and why that is a good thing, but I don't hear many saying 'you know what, maybe we could express ourselves a little more respectfuly and try to restrain our passions a little in the interests of civility.'
If someone goes on a rant about the Ns in their lives, I think we can all agree that is not hurting civil discourse here. At least I think we can.
If someone goes on a rant about how evil and corrupt American society is or how George Bush's or Bill Clinton's policies and ideas are not just wrong but truly evil then how is a reasonable conversation possible? Either those who disagree will respond in kind, in which case we have a mindless, destructivel free-for-all, or those who disagree have to bite their tongues and silence themselves while the others rant and rave.
 I'll say it one last time, I can get that in the home-cookin, in-your-face version with my family, why come here for it?
You know from when I first came here that I don't avoid disagreements or arguments as long as they have a point other than insulting or shouting down the opposing viewpoint.
In fact, as I think about it, the very first conversation I had with you was regarding all of us not painting each other with broad brush strokes of blame and shame. And your comments then were not directed directly at me either but at a larger group.
Your response then was to admit the reasonableness of what I had to say and agree that we should all try and be respectful even when disagreeing.
Here we are six months later having the same conversation, but the overall response this time seems to be 'yeah, we're having a donnybrook here, what's it to ya?'

Sela,

My point is not so much about direct personal insults, but the tone and edgy atitude here. I have been directly insulted in the past, but that I don't really mind so much. I can shoot back when that happens. There is a general incivility in the threads that concern politics and there is a 'quick to be offended or offend' sensibility in the other threads. Not every one, by any means, but enough to make me wonder why I'm here.
I'm not looking for an apology, just a little thought as to how what we say is perceived by others and whether it can be seen as insulting or harmful to others.

I guess it comes down to this. If this board is a place for people to discuss and heal from the Ns in their lives, with some sensible and friendly off topic disagreements tossed in as well, then its useful to me and maybe I can be of a little use to it.
If its for endless cycles of simmering hostility and a subtle conformity to standards of thought then maybe its more useful to others than me.
Perhaps if I back off for a time and restrict myself to reading only those threads which I find profitable I'll feel differently.

After all why should I leave just because Moveon.org, Hillary Clinton and Paul Krugman (and by extension all those who generally agree with them) are dishonest, intolerant, closet racists and bigots who detest Christians and morality in general and only want to keep poor white folks, African Americans and Hispanics down on the government plantation so they'll keep voting Democratic...... Hey this is kind of fun.

mud

[vunil]

Ok, so today I noticed that every single board I ever check (and some I rarely check) is having the same problems/discussions/issues as this board!  Even one I read that is only a way for folks to meet each other for a beer (I like reading it even though obviously I'm not meeting them any more for beer) has exploded this morning in a big political discussion.  One I read that is only about home decorating had the exact same thing.  Almost carbon copy.

So, it's mostly the topic.  It is getting folks all riled up. 

Nice to know it isn't just us