Author Topic: Transactional Analysis / Drama Triangle  (Read 13744 times)

CeeMee

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Transactional Analysis / Drama Triangle
« on: September 11, 2005, 02:07:04 AM »
Thanks for your feedback on my previous post.  I've started reading the book "Games People Play" and so far find it very interesting. 

In my travels on the net, I came across a great site that deals with children's issues, but it also has some very easy to read articles on Narcissism and the Drama Triangle in family relationships.  Here are the sites if anyone is interested in reading.

Narcissism and Selfishness in Family Relationships   http://www.angriesout.com/grown17.htm

The Drama Triangle:  The Three Roles of Victimhood     http://www.angriesout.com/grown20.htm

If anyone is reading any of the above, I'd be interested in your thoughts. 

CeeMee

Sela

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Re: Transactional Analysis / Drama Triangle
« Reply #1 on: September 11, 2005, 10:40:14 AM »
http://www.angriesout.com/grown17.htm

http://www.angriesout.com/grown20.htm

If this works, consider me to be very slightly less pc illiterate than I thought.  If they don't come up as urls, then I was simply correctomundo aboud my illiterate status.

Thanks for posting, Ceemee.  Gonna go read.

 :D Sela

Stormchild

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Re: Transactional Analysis / Drama Triangle
« Reply #2 on: September 11, 2005, 11:42:00 AM »
Hi CeeMee and Sela: I put up a link to some info on this topic over on the other thread, a while back. Might be useful too, so I thought I'd mention it.

[on edit: hey, we all found the angriesout site! there's also a .pdf file of the Karpman triangle along with the HEALTHY version that we think we're involved in when we get suckered into Karpman dynamics.]

Cheers,
« Last Edit: September 11, 2005, 11:44:44 AM by Stormchild »

ResilientLady

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Re: Transactional Analysis / Drama Triangle
« Reply #3 on: September 11, 2005, 06:45:35 PM »
Hello,
I joined this board last year for a couple of months. I was doing really bad (schizo-id/phrenic at some times, suicidal, etc..).
Then I disappeared from this board. Some (bad) things happened, I do not feel the strength (yet) to express them here for now.
BUT... (strangely enough) I bought yesterday 2 books from Eric Berne "games people play" and "what do you say after you say hello?".
I have just finished "what do you say after you say hello?" and I can only say one thing : too bad I did not read it before !!!!.
I found it ab-so-lu-te-ly excellent. It just put together all (or most) of the pieces of the puzzle.
It answered to the majority of the questions that have been haunting me (especially since my psychoanalysis).
I am eager to start the other book.
-RL

Stormchild

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Re: Transactional Analysis / Drama Triangle
« Reply #4 on: September 11, 2005, 08:57:25 PM »
Welcome back, RL.

Hugs

CeeMee

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Re: Transactional Analysis / Drama Triangle
« Reply #5 on: September 11, 2005, 10:23:15 PM »
I want to apologize first to those of you who posted on the previous thread regarding TA.  I inadvertently deleted the whole thread as I struggled to find how to delete that last post I made which had my email address there for all to see.  I wasn't comfortable with that and tried to figure out how to delete it which resulting in me losing the whole topic.  Sorry.

CeeMee

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Re: Transactional Analysis / Drama Triangle
« Reply #6 on: September 11, 2005, 10:31:29 PM »
Glad to hear some are reading "Games People Play."  I am still in the initial chapters. I need to take notes to be sure I know what I am reading, so it takes me a while.  Still, I welcome discussion from others. 

I read the two articles on Selfishness and N in Relationships and Drama Triangle and had lots of thoughts which I wanted to share.

Be warned ....this is a long one..

The articles by L. Namka give a great overview of N and roles of Victimhood.  I found the information very helpful to me and applicable to my family situation.  I don’t expect it to have all the answers I seek, but it has helped, and I don’t expect it to apply to everyone on this board, but it may be of help to some.

What I found most encouraging is that she gives hope to those of us with N traits.  I was really worried for a time there.  Most articles I came across repeated that the “N cannot change.”  (I’m still not sure I buy that, I think there’s always hope).   I believe the Ns she describes, with the “inflated ego sub part,” make up a good part of the population.  I don’t’ feel so bad, desperate and alone right now.

She even goes on to offer suggestions for lessening the N tendencies, with the most critical one being understanding your DEFENSES at work.  I think a lot of my own N behavior is a defense or “smoke screen” for some deeper issues (hurts/needs perhaps).  I’ll have to explore that further.

Another suggestion that hit home for me was “live in reality instead of fantasy.”  I’ve said before that I am concerned about my time on the internet, cyber talking with faceless intimates, pursuing sexual fantasy and such.  I see now that my instinct was right and this is probably N behavior.  Again it may be related to childhood issues.     

The family dynamics in the Drama Triangle absolutely describe my family.  In fact, during a visit some days ago,  I  examined my own interaction with my family in the context of the triangle and saw myself  assuming the Rescuer role.  I assumed that role often in the past (though I always knew it as playing the big sister role)  and I know that it can resurface at any moment if I am not  careful.   The Perpetrator in this situation subsequently backed off and left the room.  Later, I felt badly about what happened, but I wasn’t sure what to do next as the P transitioned into the Victim.  I played the Rescuer or Perpetrator for a good part of my life, and see how these roles have contributed towards my N tendencies.  My sister on the other hand assumed the role of Victim for as long as I can remember, but now she is working to free herself from that role and the codependency that comes with it.  Last there is my mom.  I see my mom as assuming all roles and switching between them based on the situation and players involved.  She has the same N tendencies that I have (less so now that she is older), but the role that describes my mother best (in her prime)  is  the one L. Namka contributed to the formula, the Neglector.  That describes my mom  as I remember her when I was a child.

The last role Namka describes is the Wise/Resilient Child.  This would be the role that I assumed during this most recent phase of my life.  I have gone through using achievement as my self esteem,  mid life crisis, struggling with addiction and finally soul searching.  Soul searching was the hardest of all as it started with what  Namka describes as “examining the dark side of your personality and making friends with it.”  I called it “peeling the onion.”   Because I didn’t have the benefit of the knowledge I have now.  It was a painful process, but when I finally reached the core, I was relieved and surprised.  I discovered that the person  inside that big stinky onion was lovable, and I embraced her.   That was the turning point in my life.   

Forgiveness came effortlessly after that.

“Forgiveness is the ultimate key to true change and recovery.  It can’t be forced, but by studying this humbling process or release, it comes, sometimes out of the blue, to take you to a place of higher consciousness.  Forgiveness happens gradually for some as there is a realization…’We are all victims of victims of victims.” ‘

CeeMee


 

Sallying Forth

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Re: Transactional Analysis / Drama Triangle
« Reply #7 on: September 12, 2005, 04:38:20 AM »
Another suggestion that hit home for me was “live in reality instead of fantasy.”  I’ve said before that I am concerned about my time on the internet, cyber talking with faceless intimates, pursuing sexual fantasy and such.  I see now that my instinct was right and this is probably N behavior.  Again it may be related to childhood issues.

In my family my escape into my inner world was the most sane thing I ever did. When I read that N's do something similar I freaked out. Then I did so more research and discovered that my inner world was not a world of grandiosity like a N's world is. So I stopped freaking out. :)

I am currently letting go of a major construct in that inner world and a false belief I held about someone. It is a very powerful process - and finally I am writing again. I had to resort to handwriting rather than typing to get the words out on paper. This process will bring me one step closer to letting go of the fantasy of my bioNfather ever loving me. I'm right on the cusp of that realization.
The truth is in me.[/color]

I'm Sallying Forth on a new adventure! :D :D :D

ResilientLady

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Re: Transactional Analysis / Drama Triangle
« Reply #8 on: September 12, 2005, 09:10:58 AM »
Hello,
I hope I do not hijack the TA thread, but I would like to share why TA/structural analysis books helped put (some of) the pieces of the puzzle together.
When I get stuck about a concept (eg grasp introjection), I switch to a different type of reading. I like to take different approaches to better understand and accept things.
Here is how I started:
-"classic psychanalysis" to understand the basic concepts such as conscious/unconscious, or transferance (important to know when expressing on a board)
-behavioral books about N
-books about letting go and meditation/zen
-MBTI (not only to know my type but also my parents and siblings').
-enneagrams (and wings).
-psychogenealogy and history
Now i have the impression that IMO TA/structural analysis kinda link these topics together.
It is like a system that uses in a concrete way these theoretical concepts.
I dunno if somebody may relate to this impression of "ha ha! I understand better now!" after reading TA books?
Or maybe it is just an ENTP / eneagram type 4-wings 5-3 way of handling things? :roll:
-RL
« Last Edit: September 12, 2005, 11:05:26 AM by ResilientLady »

ResilientLady

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Re: Transactional Analysis / Drama Triangle
« Reply #9 on: September 12, 2005, 09:14:25 AM »
SallyingForth,
Quote
In my family my escape into my inner world was the most sane thing I ever did. When I read that N's do something similar I freaked out. Then I did so more research and discovered that my inner world was not a world of grandiosity like a N's world is. So I stopped freaking out.
This is what I have been through for these past 10 months... :shock:
Knowing about my family's N-ism made me discover my schizo tendencies..
-RL

CeeMee

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Re: Transactional Analysis / Drama Triangle
« Reply #10 on: September 12, 2005, 12:29:43 PM »
Another suggestion that hit home for me was “live in reality instead of fantasy.”  I’ve said before that I am concerned about my time on the internet, cyber talking with faceless intimates, pursuing sexual fantasy and such.  I see now that my instinct was right and this is probably N behavior.  Again it may be related to childhood issues.

In my family my escape into my inner world was the most sane thing I ever did. When I read that N's do something similar I freaked out. Then I did so more research and discovered that my inner world was not a world of grandiosity like a N's world is. So I stopped freaking out. :)

I am currently letting go of a major construct in that inner world and a false belief I held about someone. It is a very powerful process - and finally I am writing again. I had to resort to handwriting rather than typing to get the words out on paper. This process will bring me one step closer to letting go of the fantasy of my bioNfather ever loving me. I'm right on the cusp of that realization.


SF  I know how that is.  I too often read something and think it applies to me.  I'm certain your escape and my escape are very different.  Mine being very unhealthy in the long run though I get some immediate gratification at the time. 

When I write to this board though, I feel it is a healthy and good escape because I learn so much from the discussion that springs forth.  Nonetheless, my family RESENTS the time I spend on the computer immensely, particularly my hubby. 

Realizing that your bioNfather never loved you must be a difficult step.  I've also found writing out my feelings helps with coming to terms with hard stuff like that. 

I remember the time when I came to the realization that my own mother didn't like me very much.  I understood that she loved me as her daughter, but she didn't like me as a person given my N tendencies.  The funny thing was, that I always thought I was her favorite.  I thought that I was revered in the family because of the role I assumed to make up for mom not being there.  Well the truth was, I had become such a hardened person (dictator almost) that I repelled everyone that was once close to me.  The day I discovered the truth, I was blown away in a funny way.  I laughed at myself for being so blind and stupid and then I cried.  It was all good though.  My blindspots were beginning to disappear.

SF, finding out your father never loved you if you always hated him is one thing, finding out he never loved you when you always loved him regardless of the abuse is another.  Sometimes we hate our abusers (my feelings about my stepfather) and sometimes we love our abusers (I loved my own father tremendously).  In my case, the feelings were reciprocal.  My stepfather hated me  and my father loved me so it wasn't as difficult and painful as it could have been.  What are your feelings about your father if you care to share at this time?

CeeMee


CeeMee

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Re: Transactional Analysis / Drama Triangle
« Reply #11 on: September 12, 2005, 01:17:58 PM »
Hello,
I hope I do not hijack the TA thread, but I would like to share why TA/structural analysis books helped put (some of) the pieces of the puzzle together.
When I get stuck about a concept (eg grasp introjection), I switch to a different type of reading. I like to take different approaches to better understand and accept things.
Here is how I started:
-"classic psychanalysis" to understand the basic concepts such as conscious/unconscious, or transferance (important to know when expressing on a board)
-behavioral books about N
-books about letting go and meditation/zen
-MBTI (not only to know my type but also my parents and siblings').
-enneagrams (and wings).
-psychogenealogy and history
Now i have the impression that IMO TA/structural analysis kinda link these topics together.
It is like a system that uses in a concrete way these theoretical concepts.
I dunno if somebody may relate to this impression of "ha ha! I understand better now!" after reading TA books?
Or maybe it is just an ENTP / eneagram type 4-wings 5-3 way of handling things? :roll:
-RL


I wish I could answer that question but I am a newbie to all this psychology stuff.  I have had to find my way on my own, pretty much through trial and error.  I did have the help of a wonderful therapist who just let me talk, talk, talk and eventually after I got it all out of my system, I could see what I was dealing with and put myself back together. 

You are obviously WELL read.  I admire your drive.  It is encouraging to me to know that I've stumbled upon something that draws on the best of all the rest.  It was quite by accident and happened as a result of discussion from this board.   I did pick up some books from the library on eneagram.  This was a suggestion from another member of the board some time back. 

I am wondering about getting back into therapy.  From what I've learned so far, I'm thinking it might be good to go with a TA therapist or maybe even a psychoanalyst.  Have you ever tried psychoanalysis?  I think so much of my stuff is subconscious, I'd like to try it.  But it is very expensive and I'm not sure my insurance covers any of this stuff.   

CeeMee

Sallying Forth

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Re: Transactional Analysis / Drama Triangle
« Reply #12 on: September 12, 2005, 01:57:40 PM »
Another suggestion that hit home for me was “live in reality instead of fantasy.”  I’ve said before that I am concerned about my time on the internet, cyber talking with faceless intimates, pursuing sexual fantasy and such.  I see now that my instinct was right and this is probably N behavior.  Again it may be related to childhood issues.

In my family my escape into my inner world was the most sane thing I ever did. When I read that N's do something similar I freaked out. Then I did so more research and discovered that my inner world was not a world of grandiosity like a N's world is. So I stopped freaking out. :)

I am currently letting go of a major construct in that inner world and a false belief I held about someone. It is a very powerful process - and finally I am writing again. I had to resort to handwriting rather than typing to get the words out on paper. This process will bring me one step closer to letting go of the fantasy of my bioNfather ever loving me. I'm right on the cusp of that realization.

Realizing that your bioNfather never loved you must be a difficult step.  I've also found writing out my feelings helps with coming to terms with hard stuff like that. 

SF, finding out your father never loved you if you always hated him is one thing, finding out he never loved you when you always loved him regardless of the abuse is another.  Sometimes we hate our abusers (my feelings about my stepfather) and sometimes we love our abusers (I loved my own father tremendously).  In my case, the feelings were reciprocal.  My stepfather hated me  and my father loved me so it wasn't as difficult and painful as it could have been.  What are your feelings about your father if you care to share at this time?


Actually I never knew my bioNfather other than in context of abuse. However I developed a construct of him which was partially based on truth, partially based on lies. Apparently I'm not the only one in my family who did this though as two of my brothers named their children after him. Very strange as he was my bioNfather only and not theirs. So they must know of him but again not know him.

In my inner world my bioNfather (I didn't realize he was my bioNfather) was an okay guy and I loved him. However since the beginning of July that all changed when I accepted that this internalized man was my bioNfather AND my abuser. Since then I hate him. It happened like the flick of a light switch, love to hate.
The truth is in me.[/color]

I'm Sallying Forth on a new adventure! :D :D :D

ResilientLady

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Re: Transactional Analysis / Drama Triangle
« Reply #13 on: September 12, 2005, 03:51:37 PM »
Hi Ceemee,
Quote
You are obviously WELL read.
Thank you for the compliment! But I think circumstances put me in a position where I had to learn, no matter what.

Getting better psychologically has been more or less my priority in life since sept 2002.
I have been through psychoanalysis for only 1 year sept 2002-sept 2003 (once to 3 times a week, mostly twice).
I think it was a tough but great experience that could not be replaced by anything else.

It is true that psychoanalysis is really expensive both in time/energy and money, but in the country where I live (France) it may be fully reimbursed... (this is one of the very few good things living in this country  :P).  And behavioralism is not really taken seriously in my country, i.e. ask someone about narcissism, he will not know what this is about... :wink:  This is why I am here, and this board has helped me tremendously.

So, after 1 year of analysis, I was stuck and I decided to quit.
6 months later, obssessing nightmares for 10 days about my mother and her sisters and her mother made me think about my analyst's last comment/warning :"remember that the most dangerous person for you in your life is your mother".

I did not want to go back to him, but I started buying books in a bookstore specialized in psychoanalysis, but easy to read . I cried, I got very angry, I sometimes felt really suicidal when I read them (I know now that it is a specific type of transferance expected from someone w/ schizo traits)...but as long as I could get some answers to my questions, I was somewhat happy. And I learnt to cherish my unconscious and my dreams. I also learnt a lot from the internet and from this board in particular.

This year, I met also met a few people who help me get on the right track by pointing the importance of the spiritual dimension.
I finally accepted it as a "gift" and not a curse. And I also learnt not to talk too much about it (especially my mother who is not spiritually inclined at all).

So, my point is that even when desperate/stuck on some big issue, it is important to keep hope and cherish/trust the unconscious.
I have faith in it. My dreams have been my best tool to get forward.
Later, after I have "forgotten" (consciously) the issue , the light or the answer will come in some other way b/c the unconscious does not forget.
And IMO an intersting way of helping this happen is to learn another point of view (or theory/whatever you may want to call it).
After a while you will be able to make connections and link (some) dots together...

So, what worked for me, was first to spend time in psychoanalysis and then have a "self-analysis" (sorry for the pompous term) i.e read books about questions raised but unanswered during the analysis. And observing myself and asking more questions, and so on...

Getting back to you
Quote
I'm thinking it might be good to go with a TA therapist or maybe even a psychoanalyst
I would personnaly recommend a psychoanalysis (if your insurance can cover it), and later maybe a TA. It sounds more logical to me b/c the psychoanalysis will provide you more w/ the basis and concepts than a TA which is more systemic than analytic, I think.

The reasoning I had, regarding the choice of therapist is this :
1)only doctors (w/ 10 to 12 years of medical studies) are reimbursed. In other words I would choose a psychiatrist (not a psychologist or psychanalyst w/o medical background).
2)as I believe depression/psychological disorders are at the boundary of the body and the mind, I did not choose a "traditional" psychiatrist as we can see in hospitals (he would tend to ignore the "mind" aspect of the problem and focus on medication).
I looked for a psychiatrist who has his own practice and whose methodolgy is psychoanalysis. It took me 3 months and attempts with 2 other therapists before I could get one that would suit me.

Today, after having analyzed all the transferance stuff that went on during the analysis, I think that my analyst was probably not the best therapist I could have, but a good enough one, regarding my case (not so easy to deal with). Now I am thinking about maybe (next year?) getting to TA group therapy.
But I need to do my homework first, ie. I need to read more books about the topic.  :P

I wish you good luck about finding an analyst (if you can). I think it is really worth, but I would like to warn that it is a very important decision to make in one's life and that it is always a hard time (for both you and people close to you) when you are in analysis -and some time after.

-RL

ResilientLady

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Re: Transactional Analysis / Drama Triangle
« Reply #14 on: September 12, 2005, 04:14:42 PM »
Hello,

Here is another link about TA and its founder, Eric Berne. 
http://www.itaa-net.org/ta/bernehist.htm

Here is the list of the books he wrote :

The Mind in Action (1947);
A Layman's Guide to Psychiatry and Psychoanalysis (1957);
Transactional Analysis in Psychotherapy (1961);
Structure and Dynamics of Organizations and Groups (1963);
Games People Play (1964);
Principles Group Treatment (1966);
Sex in Human Loving (1970); and
What Do You Say After You Say Hello (1971).

I started w/ the last book he wrote.  :(
Maybe it is better to start now w/ Transactional Analysis in Psychotherapy (which seems to set the basics) before starting Games people play.
(I had a hard time admitting what I called "concepts taken from granted" during the first half of What Do You Say After You Say Hello.)
What do you think Ceemee?

-RL
« Last Edit: September 12, 2005, 04:17:00 PM by ResilientLady »