a big lie always

[Bloopsy]

Longtire!!!!  hi!
 One thing i learned today in therapy was about "dishing" when you kind of attack someone, like gossip, and that it is not okay, and why people do it which is because they feel really bad and insecure  and they are basically saying how they feel about themself but that it is spreading darkness. For some reason that was really freeing for me because I always felt so afraid of that because I always had that done to me (and then would do it myself oh no) . Like when you say " well so and so is so and so and oh my god how can they wear that outfit blah blah" You know what I mean???  I just felt excited about that and for some reason it helped me a lot, so I thought I'd write it down here. Maybe because knowing where it is coming from means I don't have to take it seriously/ respond in kind/be in any way invested in that kind of communication???    And when I notice myself doing it I can be like oh I must be feeling really icky and not be ashamed because that's normal/not bad. Anyway, just thought I'd write that here because it is really exciting I think.

[Bloopsy]

Sucsess!!! That man (S) just called and I didn't pick up!!! I thought of you guys. Thank you for putting new voices in my head.

[Moira]

Hi Bloopsy and everyone! I agree with what most of you have said- how can anyone growing up or being exposed to N abuse ever have any choice but to develop some N traits. We all have disordered unhealthy personality traits- but they only surface when we are beaten down and helpless. They are not the core of our personality and how we consistently relate to people and the world. I believe all of us have at some time been freaked out by the possibility of being N. Take a look at " inverted Nissism" online and see what you think. I totally could see that in me. Living with my N mother and ex N partner made me appear  crazy to other people and I did believe I'd lost my mind. I had behaviour that I'd never had before- extreme cruelty- towards them( but completely uncharacteristic for me), hitting them, completely losing all control, ugly disturbing obsessive thoughts etc. You exhibit a conscience and feeligs of empathy and pain- totally uncharacteristic of true Ns. You are not evil! I believe that true Nissts- esp those who fit diagnostic psych. criteria- and most research and personal experiences seem to bear this out- are totally incapable of change. Change implies the concept of empathy, remorse, ownership of one's behaviour etc and Ns don't ever see anythign wrong with them. It's us and world who need to change as they constantly feel they're the ones being victimized and treated like shit- for no reason. It's NEVER THEM!!! Again, you are NOT a N!!!! Hugs- Moira

[giboni]

I have not posted for a while to this board because I was afraid that I had narcissism and was just scared. My therpapist told me that I do have some narcissistic traits from growing up around narcissistic people, and that sent me to a tailspin and felt very sad. I am just writing to this board because even though I know from what I ihave read and also from personal experience that narcissistic people are very hurtful, also I think that if anyone is a really  caring person they would realize that  no one is narcissistic because they want to be. I think that it is very sick and horrible the way it is written all over the internet that a person can never recover from this.  It is very horrible and terrrible because everyone is a person just as equal as anyone else and it is horrible and terrrible to read on the computer that this is something that you can never recover from and it also means that you are evil and whatever. I do not understand at all anymore. I just want to say that I for one am going to recover from any narcissism in me and that no one has a right to label me as evil or anything else and that is not acceptable one human being to another. People can do evil things but that does not make them evil and I have never intentionally hur someone else in my life and think that it is very awful that  so many people would judge me as evil just because the conditions of my childhood led me to develop some narcissistic traits. This I am writing and posting for my own sake I just need to have said this in some way.

Hi Bloopsy, We have to have narcissism, which includes a sense of self, in order to survive and make sensible decisions. There is nothing wrong with that. A healthy person tries to balance her needs and desires with the needs and desires of others. I have a real question about whether NPD really exists, but I will get to that later.

I totally agree with Miss Piggy and October here.

If you are worried about being a narcissist, in the sense of having a personality disorder, I would tend to say that you are not and you don't. 

I am on this board because I was taught in my family that it was selfish and evil of me to have needs and desires. You could say it was pounded into me.  I was taught to subsume my self, which didn't get a chance to totally form until I healed, into whatever anyone else wanted. That set me up to be a victim, the very co-dependent kind. I was pretty much voiceless because I didn't know who I was; I let myself be pretty   much whatever anyone needed at the time. A humourous definition of a co-dependent is that when a co-dependent dies, someone else's life flashes before her eyes.  There is some truth in that joke. However, even in my worst co-dependent moments, there was an element of narcissism because I could feel good about myself when playing out the roles I took on in my co-dependence. I was also very concerned about how I looked to others and what other people thought of me, which sounds pretty Nish, doesn't it? I was a people-pleaser. Healing has meant replacing unhealthy narcissism with healthy narcissism, and learning to how to live a balanced life.

So narcissism exists in everyone. In both extreme co-dependency and extreme narcissism, there is the distinct inability to balance the needs and desires of the self with the needs and desires of others. There is a continuum of behavior and attitude from healthy to full-blown personality disorder.  I know that borderlines, which are  probably the most extreme form of co-dependence, if you use the abandonment theory, can heal. The reason BPDs can heal is that they are capable of compassion and empathy, distorted as it is, and can eventually transfer that to themselves. I think that I was about as close to BPD can get in my extreme co-dependency and abandonment issues, but I wasn't a rager, that's the only difference.

Some people state that NPDs see others as objects or sources of supply and have no empathy or compassion. The supposed reason, which is theoretical, that full-blown NPDs can't heal is because, if they have no empathy or compassion, they cannot apply what they don't have to their own woundedness, the way a co-dependent or a borderline can. If it is true that a full-blown NPD has no awareness or concern about how their behavior impacts others, I would think that it would make it tremendously difficult to change. However, keep in mind, that the personality disorders are a construct, an idea, and nothing is written in stone. There is no blood test for NPD, OCD, or BPD...or any of it. As I said before, behavior exists on a continuum as do attitudes. I know that it is possible for someone with very heavy N characteristics to change....I see it in AA all the time. I know many people who are self-admitted former N's who enough of a chink in their armor to realize how much they were hurting others and have the desire to change. Before they could really heal, they had to get compassionate and empathetic with their own wounded selves.

That may be why it is stated that full-blown NPD is very rare...and I wonder if the condition really exists, or if it is just a nicer way of saying the person has anti-social personality disorder?  What is the difference between someone that hurts others because they have full-blown NPD and somebody with anti-social personality disorder? APDs cannot be helped because they really do not have compassion and empathy. There are many functioning APD's who are very aware of the rules and expectations of society, but they haven't introjected those rules and will get away with what they can when nobody is looking...and don't care if they hurt others.   (Not every APD is a sexual predator or serial killer.) Somebody with APD may say they feel remorse, but they feel remorse because of being caught and the consequences to them...which sounds like what we think of as NPD. So I am very confused about the difference.

Hi,
 Didn't know anything 18 months ago about "NPD".Feel very strongly that in fact this theory of the "False Self" is true and acurate.The problem with this Continum as well as other alleged "PDs" is how the "Consenus" of the members of the APA decision making goes into the DSM politics bias,drug companys.Its apparent to me from studying and observing roomates in close quarters for many years the overlap of the diagnosis as listed in the DSM IV.All pds have a lack of or little empathy have varying degrees of Narcism interpersonaly manipulative behavior and pathalogical lying.Posted See Me on another thread my thoughts on this.NPD feel exists as a continum just like Extreme psychopaths BTK ,Ted Bundy.As well as my own life experiences.A big problem is the ability to mimic the appearance of "Normal emotions".The N is simple the drug Attention,Adulation,Admiration and or fear..Narcistic Supply.Recently had three thats right three who fit the DSM IV Tr five of nine.1 26 female in out of therapy labeled Bi Polar never saw Bi polar once in 5 months.....NPD all the way quote her "It takes one to know one" 2nd gay Male 50ish looking claimed 45 solid mild N. 3rd 23 female diagnosed Borderline PD in College fit it snugly except her behavior sexually was of a Somatic Narcist constantly cheating on her boyfriend of five years eg thurs Sex on first date with stranger Friday boyfriend Saturday Sex with another date She had a strong but quiet sense of entitlement and was Verbaly and with her facial gestures abusive like an N.It exists and can be helpful these descriptions and red flags of behavior.

[CeeMee]

Hi All,

First, Bloopsy, thank you for starting this post.  It is really got me thinking.  I may be headed for a breakthrough in understanding. 

I've been thinking about what has been written regarding the N continuum.  I would agree and guess most fall somewhere in the 10-1 range (Giboni's scale) and then we get into the Bundys, Bushes, Martha Stewarts and the like.  (Sorry if I've offended anyone on those selections). 

One thing still concerns me though and it is an area that I am personally grappling with.  It's the issue of empathy quotient.  What I think I understand you saying is that your level of empathy can determine where you are on the continuum.

I think that I am an empathic person, but for years, I learned to fight back, build up walls, attack lest you be attacked, judge lest you be judged and so on and so forth.  Lots of nasty habits that I thought were actually who I was.  This was how I coped.  As I've said in another post, It left me exhausted and damaged but most of all it left me with underlying N tendencies (to this day) that I have to deal with.

I'm thinking this is "inverted" or "introverted" N that Moira and Giboni have referred to in their posts.  I'm going straight to the site when I'm done here that addresses that, This is brand new information for me thanks Moira and Giboni.

Giboni can you explain this for me...

"A big problem is the ability to mimic the appearance of "Normal emotions".


Amethyst, if you're following this, can you explain this for me...

"but they haven't introjected those rules."

Thank you all for your thoughts. 

CeeMee

(yes Giboni, it is a pun.  Long story that I can't go into on the board.  Are you studying psychology?  How did you come to observe roommates?  Were they people you studied or people you actually lived with?  I've started to think I'd like to study psychology.  Just what the field needs another psycho psychologist!)

[Bloopsy]

Ceemee you're welcome I am so glad that you are having a breakthrough. I feel the thrills of excitment for. I will never forget coming back to this board and writing and then reading your nice post. It was the best. Let's write a lot more. And get better. Love,
Bloopsy

[amethyst]

Hi All,

First, Bloopsy, thank you for starting this post.  It is really got me thinking.  I may be headed for a breakthrough in understanding. 

I've been thinking about what has been written regarding the N continuum.  I would agree and guess most fall somewhere in the 10-1 range (Giboni's scale) and then we get into the Bundys, Bushes, Martha Stewarts and the like.  (Sorry if I've offended anyone on those selections). 

One thing still concerns me though and it is an area that I am personally grappling with.  It's the issue of empathy quotient.  What I think I understand you saying is that your level of empathy can determine where you are on the continuum.

I think that I am an empathic person, but for years, I learned to fight back, build up walls, attack lest you be attacked, judge lest you be judged and so on and so forth.  Lots of nasty habits that I thought were actually who I was.  This was how I coped.  As I've said in another post, It left me exhausted and damaged but most of all it left me with underlying N tendencies (to this day) that I have to deal with.

I'm thinking this is "inverted" or "introverted" N that Moira and Giboni have referred to in their posts.  I'm going straight to the site when I'm done here that addresses that, This is brand new information for me thanks Moira and Giboni.

Giboni can you explain this for me...

"A big problem is the ability to mimic the appearance of "Normal emotions".


Amethyst, if you're following this, can you explain this for me...

"but they haven't introjected those rules."

Thank you all for your thoughts. 

CeeMee

(yes Giboni, it is a pun.  Long story that I can't go into on the board.  Are you studying psychology?  How did you come to observe roommates?  Were they people you studied or people you actually lived with?  I've started to think I'd like to study psychology.  Just what the field needs another psycho psychologist!)

Introjection=" In psychoanalytic theory, the unconscious incorporation of the values, attitudes, and qualities of another person into the individual's own ego structure."

In psychoanalytic theory, a someone with an anti-social personality disorder would not have introjected societal values in such a way that he would feel guilt when wrongdoing, despite consciously knowing the rules. Freud called the conscience the super-ego. APD's seem to lack a conscience.

This is why I have confusion about narcissism vs APD. I have heard that all psychopaths or sociopaths are narcissists, but that not all narcissists are psychopaths. However, it sure seems as if they behave like psychopaths because they lack guilt for using and harming others.

[miss piggy]

Hey everyone,

I don't know how to explain the difference between APD and N, but I'll just share what I observe about my major N.

N is very competitive, self-absorbed, grandiose.  He also views himself as a great guy whom everyone likes.  He is a salesman of sorts.  So when his me-first attitude causes ill-feeling in others, he does feel guilt and anxiety.  He has a couple of responses.  If the upset person is "equal" or "superior" in status, he wants to undo his mistake.  If the person is "lesser", he rages.  "What's the matter with YOU?"  Actually he wonders what is the matter with a superior who doesn't "understand" his needs.  This sets the internal hamster cage rolling around in his head for days of self-absorbed obsession. 

He is concerned about the response of others as a feedback mechanism.
He does feel shame and guilt (at least that is what I think it is).  His response to that is to rage to dump it back onto others.
This is not to say he doesn't rage when he doesn't get his way.  He does that too.  But I'm trying to draw a picture of an N with a sense of guilt.  Did it work?

MP

[Moira]

Hi- as I think I've said on several thread- Ns are master liars and actors and are very skilled in putting on the mask of emotion. They are not capable of feeling any emotions other than rage, fear , jealousy. don't believe for a second that Ns feel anything else but they should do well in hollywood. always pay attention to their actions and not their words. You know how " normal" people demonstrate guilt and make ammends etc.- is there any of this going on? Even if Ns do "demonstrate" this- ask yourself what they stand to gain by convincing the other person they're " sorry". Guarantee there is something the person they're allegedly apologizing to has something they need. Some may think I'm a hard ass but even I've been foolked by their seeming emotion in my personal life. Protect yourself always - trust your gut instinct and you inner voice- rarely wrong but I know for myself I'm very good at self lies, denial, rationalization etc.  moira

[CeeMee]

Thanks for the clarification Amethyst and Moira.

I went and read the article on Introverted N and found it very interesting, but what really caught my eye was the description of the Counterdependent N.  Bingo!  My N tendencies definitely are along those lines.

Does anyone know of any other books or cites that explain Counterdependent N?  I'd like to learn more.

Btw, did anyone notice that Sam Vankin has a monopoly on cites regarding N.  I wonder why others aren't writing as much or why he writes so much?  I'd like to see other opinions on it if there are any.

CeeMee

[Moira]

hi Guys and Gals! Just a quick update on my ex N. I think I mentioned he's in a recovery house- new source of people who are vulnerable to bullshit ( although addicts are very adept at sniffing out bullshit!), free housing and food. We've run into each other continually at meetings and I've - delusionally- tried to be friendly etc. Was successful at avoiding anything else other than superficial conversation- always in the presence of others. A few days ago i heard through the grapevine that he'd confronted a guy who had asked me out for lunch a few times and I felt uncomfortable with( had discussed with said guy and things were fine.)- and accused him publicly of " putting the moves on me...we'd gone out for x amount of yrs. and how dare he". blah blah. Then proceeded to attack this guy on everything he said in the group. I also had several calls from women saying he'd been grilling them on who I was hanging out with etc. Then his roommate at the recovery house told me he'd moved out of N's room because N. was accusing him of putting the moves on me( I dared to have a few conversations with this guy). Other guys there are telling me that N. refers to me as his " girlfriend" and has pics of me plastered all over his room. I was pissed off and called him at recovery house and told him what he was doing was completely inappropriate and he was getting an unsavoury reputation. He hung up. He called me last night and left a message" you are as usual accusing me of things I haven't done- you are continuing to lie to and about me...if I relapse and start using again, it's all your fault". Typical!!! This is the last fucking straw!!! He has crossed the final line and any delusional warm fuzzy feelings I had are gone- finito- buried. I have stupidly let him remain on my benefit as a dependent even though he was kicked out 3 months ago. Am now thinking- actually not thinking- am going to do - remove him from benefits. I'm lying not only to myself but am jeopardizing my own benefits, and why am I continuing to support him???? I'm calling today and cancelling him and not going to inform him. I know this is somewhat passsive aggressive but I don't feel at all guilty. He'll have his financial support paying for his recovery house immediately cut off and will have to apply for welfare. Boo hoo!!! I don't feel any need to explain my actions and this will finally sever all connections with me. i'm sure though that he'll continue to phone, to continue to verbally abuse me etc. I'm also sure he'll start to slam me publicly at meetings and has already talked about me using my name( violates principle of anonymity- got slammed by numerous people- many who didn't know either of us). Bring it on!!! So, after months of therapy, medicationetc- it's clearly made absolutely no dent. Incapable of change. Interesting too that he's actually applied to disability and is telling everyone his diagnosis from his shrink is " personality disorder". no concept of what a personality disorder is!!! I'd long ago told  his shrink N. fits every criteria for N- somatic- and I believe 100% shrink agrees. n. believes that diagnosis is some kind of badge of honour!!! I also believe he won't get disability based on this diagnosis- i work in the biz and have tons of experience with said applications!!! He of course is expecting to have this approved and is quite thrilled as this would give him several 100 dollars extra a month for his phone sex and porn habit!! I forget if I mentioned this before- He's conned his NA sponsor into giving him a paid for cell phone- with a camera!- for " emergencies!!! I didn't know a cell phone for sex was an emergency!!! Also sponsor is introducing him to " moral, religious" women- so N. can have " normal" friendships with women without expectation of sex!!!! Hee hee!!! I'm convinced he'll drop out of recovery and go on a binge of drugs and sex any time soon- of course he'll be spouting off in meeting that I'm to blame!!! I am so pissed with his behaviour and bullshit that I cannot even consider lying to myself and wallowing in residual denial!!! I have support 100% from all my supports and I feel pretty good- mega relieved!- about my decision. Passive aggressively though I am relishing his "pain" in his surprise when he discovers I've cut off the benefits!!! Poor baby!!! Just wanted to share!  Moira

[amethyst]

(((Moira))) Oh my God! What a jerk this guy is. You know how the Big Book says some people cannot be helped...he may be one of them. His sponsor also sounds loony toons introducing someone with his problems to nice young women. Relationship are discouraged this early in recovery even for those of us without PDs...and any sponsor worth his salt would know that. (I'm in AA.) .

I am glad you have cut off his benefits.

Your N ex sounds stalkerish, with the pictures, possessiveness and all. Are you worried about physical violence from him? I know he is emotionally violent, but has he ever been physical? He has me worried, so please be careful, Moira.

[Plucky]

Hi Moira,
you sound really angry and I like that.  You are ready to lash out - I like that too, silly me.  It's much better than lashing in.  And you are so ready to kick him to the curb.  You go girl.
However, I am with our jewel, Amethyst.  He sounds dangerous.   You need to change groups, change your phone number, change your locks, move if you can, whatever.    This guy could kill you.  Especially after you cut off his insurance.
If he asks about it, and you can't avoid responding, say they found out and cut him off.  Don't say it was you.
And don't call him anymore,no matter what you hear about him.
Plucky

[Moira]

hi Plucky and Amethyst! Thanks for your validation! I've spoken several times with my sponsor and she is a very grounded wise woman. we talked about my continuing the dysfunctional dance and even my most negative responses- remember that Ns thrive on chaos and bullshit as much as admiration etc( such a foreign concept to us normal people!)- keep the game going and gives him attention. also is extremely damaging to me and my anger, though appropriate is my focusing and torturing myself with his behaviour( not mine) and it's interfering with my recovery. He'll never feel guilty or tortured so my homicidal fantasies are for naught! I get this- again intellectually- but letting go of my rage is a daily- no, minute by minute- struggle. Not nearly on top of it yet. The saga continues. I'm now going to abandon all meetings that he frequently- no doubt not by chance- and go to only women's meetings. Last week at our home group he tried to take advantage in his predatory way of a new girl who is only 24 hrs. clean. Very vulnerable and cried during whole meeting. N paid close attention to her story and then he launched into a big lie about how he has now connected with his Jewish faith and was " drawn for no reason one day into a synagogue amd started to cry and now has found God for the first time in his life". At the end I gave this girl my number and guess who was elbowing me out of the way to give her his #. She called me last night and told me she'd already had an experience with a man who totally creeped her out and was totally inappropriate. I asked if his name was B. She almost fell over. She told me he asked her for a ride home, got shot down, asked her to go for coffe, got shot down, asked if she had her own place and maybe they could go for coffee there- got shot down, asked if he could take her to a synagogue- got shot down. When she walked away from him she said he looked enraged. Oh, forget to mention he gave her a long, full body " hug" while grinding his pelvis into hers!!! Good judgement and intuition on her part!! She said she immediately regretted giving him her # and said he's called and left messages numerous times. She has no intention of calling him. I filled her in and she was so relieved. She is obviously totally raw, vulnerable and has great difficulty setting boundaries- in terms of telling people to leave her alone. He had also made the same moves on another 22 yrs old girl in same group whom he vocalized to several men he thought was a hooker. He believed because one of the older guys always brought her to meetings that he must be sleeping with her and he was " jealous". He asked for her number and then asked if he could take her to a small jazz club he knew and would make sure no men hit on her". Women are also commenting on his only giving his number to young vulneralbe women- after hearing them share so he knows who is most vulnerable. I forgot to mention that his whole spiritual connection story was totally targeting this girl as he already knew she also is Jewish.  so, surprise, surprise- the whole recovery program is yet another easy hunting ground for him. It must be frustrating for him to be turned down so many times- being 52 and on welfare is not exactly a great bargaining tool. no doubt however he will take advantage of women who aren't capable of recognizing what he is and are desperate for some kind of comfort. He's off my benefits and I've called the dentist and pharmacy so they know. He told someone that he's going in to have a bunch of expensive work done- even though he owes almost $1000.00 . I also am having some friends helping me this Sat. moving all his remaining stuff into the lobby of my building and one of them will call him and tell him if he wants it he needs to pick it up and if he doesn' show it will all be moved into the laneway. i have a lawyer friend who is prepared to draft a cease and desist letter however that really isn't going to stop him. Neither will a restraining order, if it comes to that. The good thing is he- and I've verified this both through a private investigator and police friend- has absolutely no record of any violence. His worst weapon is his mouth. Now I'm working on my own anger managment issues- hee hee- as it is self destructive and a waste of my energy. enough people are getting what he is loud and clear and his reputation continues to spread. I can't control- nor should I attempt to- his behaviour- nor can I influence the responses of all the women he hunts. I will however leave that group we both go to but before I do, I have a group of women who will assist me in warning and protecting- as much as we can- new vulnerable women. thanks for letting me rant! He has crossed the FINAL line and I cannot and will not even acknowledge his presence. I have a good suppoprt group who are all aware and have no problem leeting him know that his presence is most unwlecome! moira

[Bloopsy]

Moira,
I am so happy for you that you are cutting this creep of!!!!!! What a predator! That is so enraging how some of those men in AA are---- they may think they are recovered but I think preying on culnerable women is sometimes  worse even than hitting the bottle at least in my opinion!!!!!!! I think it's great that you can relish this victory and refuse to take his crap anymoe,
Love,
Bloopsy