Forgive THEM - maybe !

[vunil]

Oh, cross-posted with Miss Piggy.  Again, moi agree.  Forgiveness is when you fully recognize what went wrong, what was bad, what the complexities are, and decide to be really aware of those and move past them.  It isn't that thing abusers ask for after they hit you-- what they mean is "hey!  forget about it! let me do it again!  say it is ok that I keep doing it!" 

[Moira]

Great topic! For decades I hated my Nmother and never thought I'd ever be able to look at her and our twisted relationship from any other viewpoint than of hate. I was finally able to , perhaps not forgive, but reframe my tunnel vision hatred into some sort of compassion for her. I was able to realize where alot of her Nism came from- a childhood history of horrific abuse.I now believe that deep down she desperately wanted to love- be capable of that emotion, but couldn't. I think her abuse of me and my siblings all came from her own abuse and pain. Does this mean I totally forgive her? No! But I'm working on it! I firmly believe that holding onto that shit and obsessing about it for decades- esp. when we all know Ns will never own their part in abuse or be capable of apology- is self destructive and really damaging to us- physically, spiritually and mentally. I don't want to torture myself anymore with black memories etc. Don't mean to sound PollyAnnish about this- and I'm sure some of you will be rolling your eyes- oops, assumption!- but this is what I've come to believe and feel. Frankly, it feels both liberating and positive to finally be able to let go of this shit. Great reading your viewpoints and I both understand and appreciate your feelings and opinions. Moira

[miss piggy]

Hi Moira,

Well putting together your post on Lizzie's thread and here, I don't think anyone could accuse you of being Pollyannish!  How brutal.  But why let abuse hold us down and abuse us even more?  (Not that you are doing this...) Overcoming this stuff isn't the same as denying it, or easily forgetting about it.  I have to learn from it.  That's my challenge.  One thing I'm slow in learning is that I have rights.  Before I can forgive someone, I need to know that my hurts and feelings are important enough to acknowledge.  I don't think forgiveness is an easy thing at all.

What would be Pollyannish is thinking "well, I want God to think I'm a good girl, so I'll just smile and forget about it!"  I don't think God means to dismiss our hurts.  What I read in the above posts might mean "acknowledge your hurt feelings, tell 'em off, then let it go." If they keep it up, tell 'em off again, and let it go again.  God knows they have a problem.

As far as my own story above, I also tell myself, I don't know what God's plans are for them, I just know it's not going to include me!  And I let go of wanting bad things to happen to them (the psycho and her H).

There is another situation in my extended family where one family member really did some hurtful things to another.  Petty but very hurtful.  He has tried to make amends many times, and the other one will not forgive him.  Still hangs onto the resentment.  At first, I didn't blame her.  The things he did were hurtful, no doubt.  But now she's "got him".  She's got something he wants: her forgiveness.  And she won't let it go.  I think this is the situation some of the quotes above were getting at.  And now any mistreatment of him is excused because of what he did to her...add to this tricky situation that they are both rather N.  The one asking for forgiveness is in therapy and the other one is not.  Hmmm.

MP

[October]

October,
You can never look at your life as wasted when you have your beautiful daughter as a daily reminder of what life is all about.

Brigid

That should be true, I agree.  But it is not always easy to remember to count your blessings, when you measure what could have been against what is.  When you see everyone else living a life, and your own existence is little more than just staying alive.

I think my aim now is to enable her to live her life as fully as she can, and show her how to do that.  I kind of missed my chance, and I need to help her to grasp all her chances with both hands, if I can.  When I see her able to live, then I will not feel so bad about my own situation.  I hope.

[Sela]

Hi David:

It must feel really good to have that list written out with all of your childhood grievances in order.  I just reread your original post and realized that.  I bet it would take a long time for me to write such a list.  Is it like reliving it....doing that?  Certianly....recalling it eh?  At any rate, it is worth noting that you have done it, and done it well, by the sounds of it.  Good for you.

Re the Scripture you mentioned:

Luke 17: 3, 4.  Here was Jesus chatting to Luke who was listen intently and Jesus said that if someone does the wrong thing then you are to tell them what they have done to you in a disapproving way( my Bible says "give him a rebuke")'
If the bad guy repents or makes amends for his( or her) sins THEN you are obigated to forgive.
I take this to mean that forgiveness is conditional upon the willingness of the perp to repent to YOU.

I paid more attention to this one today and was thinking about it.  I wonder if Jesus meant...a "normal" person, or, the "average" person, or something like that, in regard to someone (who does wrong)?

I was just thinking that if say, a person with brain damage did us wrong, are we still expected to tell them, rebuke them, even if they have no way of understanding, and if the person does not repent, as a result of our rebuke, which they did not get.....then do we have a ligitimate reason for not forgiving?

Which led me to also wonder, if I rebuke the person and the person repents, (the same person with brain damage, I mean), but I sense something manipulative or insincere about their repent, as if it is just a put on, am I still then obligated to forgive?

You have every right to express your pain about what your parents did to you.  My only worry is that if their brains are wired differently and they do not compute what you are saying, that you may feel abused once more for their not getting it.  Or, should they immediately play act for show, infront of the therapist, and to prove what wonderful people they are, how terribly sorry they are for what they did, and if they repent with full fake force, that you may feel tricked, manipulated and once more, abused.

I confronted one of my abusers and listed I feel this because you did that and it hurt me.  It wasn't a terribly long list but it was a serious list.  I was like your sister, at that time though, and I felt terrified to face this person but at the same time...it seemed like the only way to give the person a reasonable chance to at least quit behaving like that.

Unfortunately, the person became extremely angry and revengeful which led to the continuation of their behaviour and some fancy new nasty ones as well.  And I felt totally grief stricken for that person not hearing what I said, for not at least understanding slightly, for not taking the tiniest bit of responsibility and for not indicating, at the utter least, that they would stop behaving as they were.  Their behaviour became much worse.

It did feel purging to finally stand up to the person and say my peace.  But I didn't understand that my abuser's brain is simply wired differently than most other people's brains, the average person's, normal people's, whatever.  Now I see that my rebuke was useless for inducing a reasonable response and my hopes were futile.

I guess what I'm saying is that if you really feel like you just need to let it all out and speak and say what you need to say, to get it off of your chest and to be the one to do the rebuking for a change....the experience may very well be useful to you.  You have a right to say what hurts.

But if you are hoping for them to repent....my vote is with the rest who have said that that is very doubtful.  My bet is....your parents brains aren't wired up right and you may need to consider an alternative approach to forgiving, if you want to do that, because they are not likely to repent, or even to accept your words.

Good luck anyway David.  I hope this will open their eyes and finally give you some sort of acknowledgement or at least, satisfaction.   Hopefully, all of the commenting here will give you a bit of a heads up, in case things don't go that way.

  Sela

[miss piggy]

Hi,

I think there is an old saw to fit any occasion.  After all, we've got to use our judgment and we have free will and all of that.  Here's an example:

He who hesitates is lost.  vs.   Look before you leap.
Many hands make light work  vs. too many cooks spoil the soup
etc.

So my point is: if the left hand does whatever, cut it off (however that one goes).

Which led me to also wonder, if I rebuke the person and the person repents, (the same person with brain damage, I mean), but I sense something manipulative or insincere about their repent, as if it is just a put on, am I still then obligated to forgive?

Well, I don't know if this is the answer, but let me try: one is still obligated to forgive, but I do not think you are obligated to keep yourself in harm's way and give a sick person another chance to hurt you.  Also, I think you are obligated to forgive only as far as they are sincere.  Are they acting in good faith?  How do you know?  How have they made it better?  with empty promises?  what remedy are they offering?  Also, saying they are sorry means they are not going to do [whatever] again because they are now on notice that it hurts someone they supposedly care about.  Another passage in the Bible says that if they don't knock it off, you are to bring two more community members with you and restate your grievance.  The perp is now on notice that others are watching.  I'll bet N is as old as the human race since it is such primitive behavior!

MP

[Stormchild]

This is an absolutely amazing awe-inspiring thread and all I can add to it is my appreciation and admiration of what is going on here. Hope y'all don't mind me just watching. This is great and I feel like I am learning tons.

[daylily]

From Matthew 18 (King James version):

21Then came Peter to him, and said, Lord, how oft shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? till seven times?

   22Jesus saith unto him, I say not unto thee, Until seven times: but, Until seventy times seven.

   23Therefore is the kingdom of heaven likened unto a certain king, which would take account of his servants.

   24And when he had begun to reckon, one was brought unto him, which owed him ten thousand talents.

   25But forasmuch as he had not to pay, his lord commanded him to be sold, and his wife, and children, and all that he had, and payment to be made.

   26The servant therefore fell down, and worshipped him, saying, Lord, have patience with me, and I will pay thee all.

   27Then the lord of that servant was moved with compassion, and loosed him, and forgave him the debt.

   28But the same servant went out, and found one of his fellowservants, which owed him an hundred pence: and he laid hands on him, and took him by the throat, saying, Pay me that thou owest.

   29And his fellowservant fell down at his feet, and besought him, saying, Have patience with me, and I will pay thee all.

   30And he would not: but went and cast him into prison, till he should pay the debt.

   31So when his fellowservants saw what was done, they were very sorry, and came and told unto their lord all that was done.

   32Then his lord, after that he had called him, said unto him, O thou wicked servant, I forgave thee all that debt, because thou desiredst me:

   33Shouldest not thou also have had compassion on thy fellowservant, even as I had pity on thee?

   34And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him.

   35So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.

I believe that we are expected to show mercy because we want mercy to be shown to us.  I believe that if we ignore that teaching, then we are narcissists--incapable of empathy, immune to pity, and holding ourselves above ordinary human frailty.  I believe that we do not get to decide who deserves mercy and who does not.

I agree with those who have said that forgiveness is not the same thing as approval.  I can forgive what you did to me without saying that you were right, that I deserved it, or that everything's OK now.  It just means that I am letting go of what you did.  I think it's very astute that the parable features debt as the metaphor for sin.  Forgiveness is about discharging another person from debt, about giving up the desire to even the score because the score is not ours to even. 

[Sela]

MP wrote;

Well, I don't know if this is the answer, but let me try: one is still obligated to forgive, but I do not think you are obligated to keep yourself in harm's way and give a sick person another chance to hurt you.

I think the same thing.  I think when whether we rebuke or not, get a repentance, or not...we are obligated by further instruction:  "forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us..." to do as we hope will be done to us.

We will get the same mercy we give.

If, on the other hand, we rebuke someone and they repent whole heartedly and we refuse to forgive???

There will be debt to pay, imo.

Maybe this was the purpose of the teaching?

  Sela

PS:  Stormy.....watch away!!!

Daylily I'm with you and others who see forgiveness and trust as two different things.

[cat]

I have struggled with forgiveness of my N mom through seasons of life.  Sometimes it's easier than others.  I can tell you from personal experience, the N person in your life will not admit they did anything wrong.

You will feel worse because your feelings aren't validated - and then you anger pops up all over again. And there goes that vicious circle.

Sometimes, I resolve it by realizing that the N person is going to answer to God and to Him much more than anything I could confront the N person in my life with.

That said, there are seasons where you want to forgive and where you don't want to forgive.   

[onlyrenting]

Forgive, Done, Forget NO! is this not to forgive?

Now almost 6mos away from my EX and a few months past his e-mails being rude and full of hateful lies.
I am beginning to heal from the pain. I continue to prepare myself for the Divorce in November, I have a custody battle in October. I have to rehash the pain to tell the courts what has taken place in the 28yr marriage.

I want peace in my life and not willing to give my N-H one more piece of my soul.
I am  to forgive him becuase I do not want bitterness in my life.
I try and stay mad about what he did, because there were some fun and good times too that I am reminded of and to heal and continue to make it through this being angry is the defense that keeps me motivated.  
I will leave it up to the lord to deal with him for punishment from the destruction of this family.
If the lord made man's minds this way or if because of drugs not taking care of your mind you have made yourself this way then punishment will be handed out accordingly.

I have a mind and make choices just like everyone else.
I work on myself to heal daily. I want a healthy life and make a choice to do so. The pain the work it takes to become healthy is important to me. I try and think good things by letting good thoughts in my mind.

If you are thinking how to get revenge or how to make someone hurt for what they did to you then your mind will be full of hate. Working at hate is a choice just like a diet of good healthy food for your body.
 
As I must answer questions about his verbal abuse it's a negative thought I must relive that thought.
I get angry about what he was willing to do, I wonder about him being N, he can't help it.
So even saying I forgive you is not about him, it's a part of the healing process.
I think what is it that I must be forgivin for, I would want to make it better for someone, never to cause that pain again for them. I would be sorry and be accountable.  
HE WILL NEVER BE SORRY FOR ANYTHING. I feel empty about this there is nothing from him that makes me feel better. It is gone and over, you can't communicate your pain because of his Nness he will not be able to see the hurt and destruction.

My H  makes a choice to be hurtful, continues to think about revenge and telling lies. He could work on this to change, feed himself good thoughts like others do. He will get a Big FAT head full of hate, his heart will show it, others will see it. I will let the Judge know the facts and if they make a decision about custody that Im not happy about then I did and gave everything I had to protect our D.

Do I forgive the Judge if he makes the wrong decision based on the laws. I can be angry and come back and fight about it.  We all make choices that must be dealt with based on facts we think are true.
Forgive them because they do not have all the facts or understand (N) and what they have done.  

My H is alone now and crys for our D to write him, or email him but she doesn't.  He thinks because he writes her but never says what she needs to hear from him, she owes him a response.
She is empty her emotional fuel is gone for him. I don't have the emotional fuel to make it be any different. I want to heal her with encouragement and finding her strengths, recover from the pain of not having the father she deserves. I have nothing left to make his relationship with her grow in a positive direction.  
 I find it difficult when someone who thinks he has no blame, will not communicate about any sorry for what he has done. Knows All the bible scriptures but does not abide by them and expects others to always do the right thing to him. Makes me sick.


Proverbs 9:7-8 he who corrects a scoffer gets shame for himself, and he who rebukes a wicked man only harms himself Do not correct a scoffer lest he hate you .

It is more difficult to forgive the unforgivable but the rewards and growth will be greater.

OR
  

[mudpuppy]

Hi David,

Getting back to you personally; you sound as though you are in the area on the healing continuum where just spewing out all the abuse and betrayal is therapeutic.
Until then it is difficult to deal with forgiveness effectively because the anger and denial of abuse are all bottled up inside of you, or anyone in the same situation for that matter.
So once you have released this torrent of grievances it will become easier to start to pity these lifeless Ns than it is to just hate what they have done.
I think once you vomit all this poison out that they have fed you, a lot of the anger will subside and you will then be able to better understand the idea of forgiving them for your own sake, regardless of whether they ever come to you and repent.
The idea of letting them know just how much they have harmed you and how it is has effected your life can be very healing, regardless of their response. At that point though I think you need to let go of any thoughts of vengeance or changing them.
God will repay the unrepentant. After you have dumped their poison back onto them its time to forget about fixing the past and maybe try fixing your future. You can do the latter, trying to do the former might make you a bitter, regretful old man someday.

Since we're using our favorite verses, here is one that came to me on top of a moutain yesterday.
"He gives power to the weak and to those who have no might......those who wait on the Lord will renew their strength. They will mount up with wings like eagles. They shall run and not be weary. They shall walk and not faint" Isaiah 40: something or other, twenty nine I think.

mudpup

[mum]

Hi, David. Interesting topic. Many people here have said wise things....I hope not to be redundant, but to add another voice.

Where are you spending your time and energy right now? Is it what you want for your life?

I understand (and completely empathize) with the need to identify that which you do not want and the importance of saying it OUT LOUD, if to no one but yourslef. But if we only go that far....well, that's where we stay. Sometimes we have to spend a lot of time in a place of negative emotion.  If that's where you are right now, then okay. No judgement. It's where you either need to be or want to be. But it's a choice, as soon as YOU take control of your own life and power you will see that. If you choose to be there, after understanding it's a choice, then good for you!! Read no further and bless you.

I spent much time writing letters, lists, and dreaming and hoping that the people who had hurt me would wake up and realize what they had done. I have even confronted them... and I can tell you it did nothing but cause me more pain.  Lots more. It's a simple thing, really, but I didn't know it at the time. It had to do with giving them my power, and showing them they still owned my thoughts. Like a festering wound, it just infected it more.

 At some point, we realized there is choice involved. That crossroads comes when we get good and sick of spending our precious emotional energy in someone else's garbage. And no doubt the someone(s) who created this crap cannot or will not clean after themselves, and would be more than happy to know you STILL are stuck with their crap and thinking about them.

When you get to the point of getting sick of being sick of it all....then you will choose to live differently. The "others" may not. They may choose to change (unlikely as it may be), as they have the same choice to wake up that we all do. But it can't matter to us, not if we want to heal oursleves. If you want to heal them as well....good luck, but understand it cannot be done if you are not first to change and heal. Sure it seems unfair, as those who hurt us are truly the damaged ones...ok, giant AHA!!!! You see: you are just fine already.....

When you start living for YOU and place your emotional energy in what you want, as opposed to what you DON'T want, things will change for you. Your outlook and perceptions will change. Your circumstances will change too, because you are acting in accordance with your own purpose and your own good intention.....you will become proactive instead of reactive. Your choices will be positive, and not come from  what "they" want for your life anymore. Your choices will be healthy ones....not driven by sick narcissists from your past or present.  You are in control.

And you will reclaim your birthright, your divine purpose, your power: to be happy. To live in harmony with yourself and the world. To love yourself enough to embrace pain, learn from it and then choose how you want to live and where you want to spend your energy.
Nothing positive can be created from negative emotions. They are not meant to be habitual. They are signs that something is amiss and we need to learn something.
Anger only damages the vessel it is carried in.

Learn and choose.

[Brigid]

Very beautifully said, Mum.  I agree with it all.

Brigid