Forgive THEM - maybe !

[David P]

I am still preparing my written ' childhood list of grievances' to read to my parents at the planned  'confrontation' in a few weeks . The dissertation is growing daily and after numerous re-writes it is approaching PhD quality -ha!

However I was talking to by kid sister who wants me to just 'forgive' them and move on. I suspect that this instruction is often times a cunning tactic to convince someone with a complaint to swallow it whole and just shutup!  My sister is an avoider of conflict obviously . Wuss!

Anyways I researched the concept of 'forgiveness' and was overwhelmed by the sheer volume of psychobabble on this subject.
It seems that most therapists agree that it is a good idea but they have no clue how to actually do it. Yes, I read all the stuff about it being an internal process , and it does not condone the perps wrongdoing and so on  -blah,blah!!

So I looked in the the Scriptures and found Luke 17: 3, 4.  Here was Jesus chatting to Luke who was listen intently and Jesus said that if someone does the wrong thing then you are to tell them what they have done to you in a disapproving way( my Bible says "give him a rebuke")'
If the bad guy repents or makes amends for his( or her) sins THEN you are obigated to forgive.
I take this to mean that forgiveness is conditional upon the willingness of the perp to repent to YOU.

That is quite a new slant of the traditional Christian view. What do you guys think?
David P.

[Sallying Forth]

Hi David P.,
For me I have forgiven but I will never forget. And that is the healthy way for me. If I forget what they have done then I open myself up to it happening again either by them or somoene else.

My Nparents and Nbrother will never admit to a thing and I mean a thing. They all agree we had a normal, healthier than most (Normal compared to families on our block where more than half the children later committed suicide or overdosed or became alcoholics and drank themselves to death or have mental disorders and can't function at all.), family.  I did the research myself and found enough "dirt" to confirm how screwed up my family is because no one from my family will hear or tell the truth.

I never did a confront and never will because my Nparents and Nbrother are not safe people to be around. I keep my distance - over 1000 miles from them. And my t agrees they are far too toxic to even approach with my truth.

I've read that Scripture too. Here is the New Living Translation:
Teachings about Forgiveness and Faith
One day Jesus said to his disciples, "There will always be temptations to sin, but how terrible it will be for the person who does the tempting. 2 It would be better to be thrown into the sea with a large millstone tied around the neck than to face the punishment in store for harming one of these little ones. 3 I am warning you! If another believer* sins, rebuke him; then if he repents, forgive him. 4 Even if he wrongs you seven times a day and each time turns again and asks forgiveness, forgive him."

Here's another translation:
Luk 17:3      `Take heed to yourselves, and, if thy brother may sin in regard to thee, rebuke him, and if he may reform, forgive him,
Luk 17:4      and if seven times in the day he may sin against thee, and seven times in the day may turn back to thee, saying, I reform; thou shalt forgive him.'

This Scripture is in reference to someone who is a believer who has sinned being confronted by another believer. So it would apply to your parents if they are believers and you are too.

[October]

That is quite a new slant of the traditional Christian view. What do you guys think?
David P.

I would look at the example of forgiveness in action, (incidentally addressed to non believers).

Our Lord says on the cross; 'Forgive them, Father, for they know not what they do.' 

What I take from this is that there are several layers of forgiveness.  First, I can forgive someone myself, with no input from the other side. 
Secondly, they can ask me for forgiveness, then I can consider that and either agree or disagree.  This is the example discussed by Luke.
Thirdly, I can ask God to forgive them, either as well as me or even instead of me, if it is too much for me to do.  This is not dependent on repentance, or even acknowlegement from the perp.

In the first and second types, I can forgive, but with my fingers crossed that I become saintly in doing this, but that God is watching, and will determine to avenge me and my wrongs, and that this person will actually get their just desserts in time.  I think a lot of human level forgiveness has this as an undertone, whether the person is a believer or not.

What is really difficult to do is to forgive the person in the way Our Lord did, and ask God also not to hold this particular sin to their account.  Strangely enough he does not forgive them himself; perhaps this was too much even for him. 

In the case of Ns this might be really, really hard, but the bonus is that we are forgiven in the same way as we forgive those around us, so if we do manage to say this particular prayer, it is of most benefit to ourselves, spiritually and emotionally.  Also, this avoids having any kind of confrontation, or even having to tell the N that they are forgiven, which would most likely result in a response of rage, because of course they have never done anything to be forgiven for.

I suppose the final point is that Our Lord thought ignorance of the degree of sin to be a good enough reason for forgiveness from God.  I am not sure I can agree with that, to be honest.  I am sure there is a lot of elective blindness in those around us, who do not see the damage they cause because they do not want to see it.  That does not per se let them off the hook, to me.  Only we can do that.  The old saying says; to err is human, to forgive divine.  I believe that is true.

A final question might be, can I pray as Our Lord did, for the Ns who have destroyed my life?  I think I could, because I recognise that the person who is most hurt by N behaviour is the N him/herself.  And having lived a life full of pain and insecurity, I would not want any sins against me to be also held against their account at the last judgement.  My own life has not exactly been a success, and I have not fulfilled my potential in any area at all.  It has been a waste of a life so far, and no signs of getting any better for the future.  But I think there are compensations which we are not aware of in this life, which might be more easily seen in the next, so as far as I can see, there is nothing to forgive.

Maybe I would want God to find the first N-maker in my family and throw the book at him or her.  After that, it is an endless stream of pain.  What is then left to forgive, after all?   

My family would never understand the concept of forgiveness in relation to our childhoods.  The family myth is that we were a normal, if poor, family.  We had hardworking parents, who would do anything for us, and who sacrificed a lot so that we could have a decent education and standard of living.  We went without nothing that we needed, and were rather fortunate than otherwise to have the family we had.

It would take the angelic trumpets to break that particular fantasy to pieces.  It is beyond me.

Final point; I think the kyrie is a useful prayer for anyone, whether able to forgive or not.  It is in another dimension completely from the whole sin:redemption:forgiveness morass.  In English; Lord have mercy, Christ have mercy, Lord have mercy.  This is the prayer I use most often.  In Greek: Kyrie eleison, Christe eleison, Kyrie eleison.

[Sela]

Hi all:

Personally, I pay more attention to:

"Forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us..."

Words from the Lord's prayer, which He directed us to repeat.  That plus:

"Love thy enemy", words which all Christians have been taught?.

I think these are challenging to do.....but in the doing... our souls become less and less infested with negative stuff.
 
Forgiving and loving one's enemies are soul clensing, imo.

The flip side is:

Forgive us our trespasses and we'll forgive others, or maybe we won't, but forgive us anyway.

and

Love only thy friends.

Too easy.  Not the least bit humbling.  Just doesn't seem like that approach would be a fair deal for God.  He gets to forgive us and we get choose to forgive, if we feel like it.  We can hold onto whatever stuff we want against others but we ask God to forgive us, no matter what?  But He's God?  And we have been instructed on how to go about dealing with forgiveness.  Still....it's challenging.

And who doesn't love their friends?  It's not really asking anything of us to do that, is it?  No wonder it wasn't asked.  Instead, we are asked to do something not so easy....something challenging.  It's hard to keep hating if we are concentrating on loving.  Which is better....more clensing for our soul?

I doubt there is a chance in a zillion that my abusers will ask me for forgiveness.
If I don't forgive them then I will carry anger, resentment, etc in my heart and soul until the day I die.
That anger and resentment won't hurt my abusers and certainly won't do me much good, down there in that deep place.  It will probably do me and possibly others harm.....when it erupts and it seems hard to contain to boot.

For me, by forgiving my abuser, I no longer carry that anger and resentment and my heart and soul will feel lighter, happier, like a weight is lifted. (at least, in the past, when I forgive, this is how it feels to me).

So really, it is to my advantage to forgive my trespassers because in the long run, it is I who benefits when I do so and who suffers when I do not.

To love my enemy......for me the biggest of all challenges......do I need to embrace the person and shower them with warm emotion?  Yuck!

Maybe loving them can be done some other way.....like praying for them?  Like forgiving them?
It's not easy but it may be what Jesus meant?  Maybe to help in the soul clensing process?

It just doesn't seem fair for me to ask for something I am unwilling to give.

  Sela

[Brigid]

David,
I hope that you do not have high expectations for positive results to arise from your confrontational episode.  If you are doing it entirely for your own benefit, and you feel it will help you to heal, then have at it.  If, however, you think they will roll over and do a mia culpa, I think you will be sorely disappointed.  They will not have the same perceptions as you and will not ever accept fault for their treatment of you.  If they are true n's, it will be thrown back at you and be all your fault, they will tell you of your idealic childhood and the happiness you all shared.  When my parents were alive, I did try on a couple of occasions to discuss the "realities" of my childhood.  This was met with blank stares, a shake of the head, and comments about how I had no idea what I was talking about.  I eventually gave up this tactic and just walked away from the relationship in order to save myself.

Fortunately, I no longer have to worry about forgiving them and just work on healing from their treatment of me.  I have to say that is easier now, knowing they are no longer around and capable of reentering my life.  Now it is my xnh that I struggle with forgiving and/or forgetting.  For the sake of our children, I endeavor to just get along.  Maybe over time and distance from the pain of what he did, I will be able to forgive--but I do agree that the transgressor needs to accept responsibility for their behaviors in order for true forgiveness to happen.  I am not holding my breath on that one.  But like October, I will never forget what he did.  Maybe that is a protective device to keep me from ever making that mistake again.

October,
You can never look at your life as wasted when you have your beautiful daughter as a daily reminder of what life is all about.

Brigid

[amethyst]

Hi David,

I think true forgiveness takes place in a relationship where an apology is made and then amends are made so the transgression does not happen again. Without that, there cannot be forgiveness in the sense of having a trusting relationship.  I actually do not use the word "forgive" very often unless it is in a discussion with an equal, like a friend or my husband....somebody that I trust cares about my well-being and who may have erred and inadvertantly hurt me. I look for forgiveness if I screw up in intimate relationships, too...and once again, I do my level best to make the amends of not repeating the hurtful behavior.

Lots of co-dependents and peacemaker types are overly quick to "forgive"...I know because I used to be one. I think if someone expects me to forgive someone who is still engaging in harmful behaviors, or who has not shown the slightest sign of remorse, that is bs.

However, there is the matter of resentment. As a recovering alcoholic, carrying resentments is one of the worst things I can do. When I am feeling resentful, I am giving my power to others who are living rent-free in my head and creating havoc with my thoughts....resentment makes me obsessive and I find myself thinking things like,"It's SO unfair. How could they? I'd like to show THEM!"  Resentment feels awful to me. It's buried anger, which is always based on loss and fear, that I haven't dealt with. Resentment never hurts the person I resent....but it does hurt me. 

One of the best things I learned in AA was to pray for those that I resent. You are to pray for good things for them, the same things you would want for yourself and those you love,  even though the temptation is to pray that they suffer boils and torments to the Nth degree...."or a burning pitchfork inserted where the sun don't shine." (I live in Ohio and I have heard some colorful and countrified language in AA meetings.) Sometimes I have been so resentful that I have had to pray for the willingness to pray. I heard someone say in a meeting that they often had to ask God for the willingness "to pray for the GD SOB" and everyone roared with laughter because all of us understood exactly what he meant. I am sure God understands too and laughs along with us. Anyway, despite, and maybe because, of the humor, prayer works. AA says NOTHING about forgiveness, by the way.

Here are the Promises of AA, and believe me, they do come true. The promises come after the alcoholic or co-dependent starts making amends.

The Promises

If we are painstaking about this phase of our development, we will be amazed before we are
half way through.  We are going to know a new freedom and a new happiness.  We will not regret
the past nor wish to shut the door on it.
We will comprehend the word serenity and we
will know peace.  No matter how far down the scale
we have gone, we will see how our experience
can benefit others.  That feeling of uselessness
and self-pity will disappear.  We will lose interest
in selfish things and gain interest in our fellows.
Self seeking will slip away.
Our whole attitude and outlook upon life will
change.  Fear of people and of economic insecurity
will leave us.  We will intuitively know how to handle situations which used to baffle us.  We will suddenly realize that God is doing for us what we could not
do for ourselves.

Are these extravagant promises?  We think not.
They are being fulfilled among us
- sometimes quickly, sometimes slowly.
They will always materialize if we work for them.

There are some things that are unforgiveable. Murder, rape, incest, abuse, hate crimes....I can think of a whole list. However, my job as an individual is to rid myself of the the resentments that abusive actions can cause in me, so I can be free to live fully in the present. It doesn't mean that I forgive or find the behavior acceptable. If there is any forgiving to be done, I figure God will take care of that, in that God does for us what we cannot do for ourselves. 

[onionlayers]

I have been lurking for  a while -- just realized recently that narcissism runs rampant through my family, and that I am drawn to narcissist. I married and divorce one (a truly toxic one) -- and I am currently separated from my H who has a significant number of N traits.

I think forgiveness is for OUR benefit, not the other person. It is unlikely (especially with N's) that our anger, resentment, bitterness, or disgust over their behavior affects them at all. In fact, it can be a good "source" for them. I believe the point to forgiveness is to heal our own hearts and allow ourselves to move on. As others have stated, holding anger/resentment against another gives them power over us. Forgiveness does not have to mean we allow the person back into our lives, especially if they refuse to acknowledge how they have hurt us. Forgiveness does not mean forgetting or becoming a doormat for abuse, either.

One of the best books I have ever read on this subject is called "What's so amazing about grace?" written by Phillip Yancey. It was written by a very spiritual author (just FYI in case that bothers anyone).

Someone mentioned that there is a lot of psychobabble about forgiveness, but that no one seems to know how to do it. I can understand that, because forgiveness is a simple and complex process. It seems to be more about what happens in our hearts (although certainly steps can be outlined, like the bones of a structure), but the 'filling in' is individual. Maybe it comes down to not allowing yourself to spend time each day thinking hateful thoughts of someone. Or praying for them. Or not allowing yourself to wish the worst would happen to them. Not re-running what they have done to you over and over in your mind, constantly throwing fuel on the fire of resentment. Grieving the loss of your expectations for that person and the relationship you wanted with them. Even, perhaps, pitying them for their limited/twisted/sad lives.

I would highly recommend that you pick up "What's so amazing about grace?". It's an interesting look at the subject.

Onionlayers

[onionlayers]

I thought of one more thing -- giving up the destructive desire to bring about change in the other person, so that we can get from them what we wanted. I'm not sure you can forgive someone if you are still determined to change them into something they are not.

Forgiveness is a process -- and everyone will have their own way to approach it. For some, it may be confrontation. For others, it can be done entirely within themselves.

Onionlayers

[Plucky]

the person who is most hurt by N behaviour is the N him/herself.  ....  My own life has not exactly been a success, and I have not fulfilled my potential in any area at all.  It has been a waste of a life so far, and no signs of getting any better for the future. 

October,
I agree that the N is most hurt.  The N will never heal and also have to carry with them, whether they acknowledge it overtly or not, the guilt of having spread slime their entire lives.  We, on the other hand, are healing daily.
I do have issues with your other statement.    I don't know everything about your life, but I would like to know against what standards you are measuring yourself in order to conclude that you are not successful.  The most important area is your human self, soul, person, whatever you call it.  You have been doing major work there.  You have helped many others on this board, including me.  You have raised and nurtured another person.  Are you discounting all of that? 
Others might have earned diplomas, amassed large fortunes, made new scientific breakthroughs,  but I still think that healing your own self is more important than any of that.   Remember, those successful people might be Ns, wrecking havoc on the lives of others.
I consider you a friend and I don't like for people to put down my friend.
A slightly miffed
Plucky

[mudpuppy]

Hi David,

Just to echo what others have said about forgiveness benefitting primarily the foregiver.
Mathew 6:14,15 directly after The Lord's Prayer says "For if you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly father will also forgive you. But if you do not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your father forgive your trespasses."
 Kind of hard, in a way, to ask God to have mercy on us when we can't extend it to others. The point is not that they deserve our mercy, but precisely that they don't, just as we don't deserve His.

There is a wondeful hymn based on the kyrie elieson prayer October mentions.
It always makes it easier for me to extend mercy to the seemingly unforgivable when I ask for it for myself first.

mudpup

[Bloopsy]

The thing that i read about forgiveness--- i haven't gotten it yet QUITE --- that helped me the most was that you are not saying what they did was okay, or that they or anyone else has the permission now to keep doing it and that it is okay.   

[luvmyjacks]

Hi David,

I just wanted to second what Bridgid said about not holding high hopes of getting positive results from your parents.  N's don't admit mistakes when confronted - rather turn it around on you.  There will be no acknowledgement or validation from them - if they are N's that is.

I also think that forgiveness is more something that needs to be done in order to move on and not hold the anger inside.  Sometimes it can help both parties but in a situation like this the N is not looking for forgiveness in fact if you indicated to them that you forgive them for anything that would most likely enrage them...."forgive me for what? I haven't done a thing...I have only giving you everything.....blah blah blah"

I'm not really sure about how to go about forgiving......I think that I have basically forgiven my N mother for my childhood and all the head games... I know that there is only one big thing that I at this moment have not been able to let go of....the rest I think is just an internal acknowledgement that none of it was about me at all.....that she is how she is....that it is an illness....and I just know that I have to protect myself and my family from her...I still get mad when she does something new - not too often though b/c I have very limited contact….but I know not to expect a real relationship, not too open myself up and let her know my feelings or leave myself vulnerable around her.

Best Wishes,
luvmyjacks

[Brigid]

Onionlayers,
Welcome    I like the name.

Grieving the loss of your expectations for that person and the relationship you wanted with them.

I think this is where I got stuck the longest with recovering from the loss of the relationship with my xnh.  Finding out that what I thought I had in my marriage was all a lie and he just pretended, lied and hid things for over 20 years and I was in the dark.  I have gotten past the point of hating him and have reached the point of pitying him and his inability to feel the love of those around him and think of anyone but himself. That is a very sad existance indeed and I would not want to be him. 

I agree that forgiveness would be much more for my sake than his, but it is something which needs to be done in stages.  As the end of the relationship no longer causes me pain and anxiety, I am comfortable with where things are now.  Forgiveness, if it ever comes, will be further down the road and can't be forced.  It is something I pray for, however, and I believe that God would want that for me as the final piece to mending my broken heart.

Brigid

[miss piggy]

Hello everyone,

I have had a significantly mentally ill/evil person in my life.  I was really pretty chewed up about it.  I told myself that I was a forgiving person when really I was highly tolerant of inappropriate behavior.  If I was forgiving, then why did resentment build to the bursting point?  

I went through feelings of doubt (are they really that bad?  do I have a right to abandon them? etc.), anger and resentment (why don't they change?, I am so angry that they keep hurting me!  I am so angry when they lie to me!  I am so angry that they take no responsibility for their actions!  I am so angry that I have to say "no, you won't take advantage of my good nature anymore!"), shock that they would knowingly put children in harm's way and expect me to lie to make them look good.  I was freaked out that I would look 'bad' to 'outsiders' for separating from part of my family who "needed" me.

I was extremely upset, mad, hurt, scared, and obsessed with the problem.  It ate away at me inside and out.  I would sit in my house, dazed and depressed.  The denial and fantasies I held about my own family were ripped out from underneath me.  I finally went into therapy.  

Now when I think of this person, I can stay calm and just know that we are incompatible.  I don't have to hate her anymore.  Because she is not hurting me or the people I love anymore.  I had to let go of my need to rescue or fix her.  I remember wondering before therapy how I could possibly "thank my enemies"?  Well, I guess the answer is that if this eruption in my life hadn't happened, I would know less about myself, I would probably continue in unhealthy patterns.  Do I want to let this person back into my life because I am grateful for this lesson?  Hell, no.  To me, forgiveness of this person meant letting go of the anger.  Do I expect her to change?  not anymore.  Do I expect her to make amends?  No.  Even if she did try, I would tell her, "I forgive you, I am not angry with you anymore, but we are incompatible and I simply cannot spend any time with you."  Like I would ever get the chance.  

Another thing I learned is that asking someone for forgiveness doesn't mean asking them to let you off the hook (no consequences).  It means you care about making the hurt you caused better and/or paying the price (punishment).  After that, it's done.  What can I do to make it better?  Have you ever seen a little kid go around the playground hitting the other kids, saying "sorry!" and then continuing the bad behavior?  My new mantra is "no free passes!"  

David, I think you are not in any shape to consider forgiving your parents if forgiveness is defined as letting the perp off the hook.  And many people do define it this way.  "Let's just get past it!"  Forgiving means there is something to acknowledge.  Ask your sister if your parents have acknowledged anything that requires forgiveness.  Ask your sister if there is anyone in your family that is willing to accept that you even have feelings and are entitled to express them.  If they didn't do anything wrong, what are they so afraid of?  In other words, I think it is understandable that you would reject all thoughts of forgiveness at this point.  You are at the point yourself of recognizing and understanding just what the damage is.  

But you do not have to condition your own healing on making your parents see what they did wrong.  You seem hooked on making them say "uncle" so you can feel better or more powerful.  I was really hooked on the expectation that my destructive relative would change.  If she realized how much she was hurting people, she would feel so bad.  Wrong!  I was shocked to realize that there are people in this world who want others to feel pain.  She is in pain and cannot stand to see others enjoying themselves.  She feels better when other people feel bad.  She can't/won't change.  not happening.  Once I realized that, everything else fell into place.  It was my mistake for believing I was a bad person for not offering to jump into a volcano of hate, that I wasn't willing to sacrifice myself anymore at the altar of her anger and pain.  I know I sound over the top, but at the time things were extremely rocky and confusing and chaotic.  

Forgiveness doesn't mean giving up your right to self-protection and survival.  It doesn't mean not learning from our experiences (would you put your hand back on the hot iron?)  It does mean letting go of a grudge, not holding it over anyone anymore if they are truly remorseful and attempting to prevent further harm.

Sorry ("sorry!"  ) if this is confusing and hard to follow.  I just had to write it.  The whole forgiveness thing is easily misunderstood anyway.  Good luck David, we're all pulling for you!  MP

[vunil]

I agree with onionlayers and mudpuppy about forgiveness.  It has to do with peace within yourself, and it is really not that hard to do the minute you give up the idea of changing them or the past.  For some reason, the minute I let go of the idea of changing them (which took many months of reading about narcissism, in books and here-- it was a slow process) I was able to love and forgive them and have the affectionate feelings I had grown up with, combined with the wariness and rejection of all of the abuse from my childhood.  It's not simple to do, and I need lots of help from folks and this board, but the forgiveness part is always there now that it has shown up.  I believe that god helped me find it but I don't think that belief is absolutely necessary for the process.  I definitely don't think choosing not to confront always makes someone a "wuss." 

I also agree with Brigid about the outcome of this process.  I guess I keep trying to imagine someone who was not narcissistic, not abusive, perfectly well-adjusted (I am sure there is someone like that out there!) in the situation you are putting your parents in.  ANYONE would feel threatened, angry, sad, defensive, unable to really comprehend what was going on, and attacked.  I am just not sure the  point. If you just want to attack them, then just attack them.  Hit them with a big pillow or something.  If you want to communicate, I can't imagine this working.  The thing you want to communicate is going to be undercut by your behavior. If someone read me a long articulately composed letter about what a shit I was to them the first thing I would think to myself would be how I really had no choice but to reject them given their obviously unpleasant behavior.  The second thing I would think was that I was going to leave the room as soon as possible.  I think in many ways your plan makes things too easy for you, and for them  .  Maybe all you want is to end the relationship forever and this is a way to do that? 

So, I guess, keep us posted...  there is a lot of anger there, but I'm not sure what the goal is.