N's beat their children into emotional submission?

[Anastasia]

Is it just me or have most of these narcissists (particularly the mothers) just absolutely emotionally beaten the backbone out of most of their children?  I read these boards and see over and over how so many of us are afraid to tell the narcissist off.  
It's time for us to grab back our power, and quit giving it away to others--especially the narcissist because that is the last person to want you to be an independent and functioning human being.  A narcissist loves you being dependent on them for your strokes.  They love being the wise one who tells you how to live your life, which is particularly amusing since they can't even control themself.
I also notice alot of us women had mothers who really don't like other women.  For my Nmother it has to do with womanliness and competition.  Is this true of the Nmothers of the rest of you?  Don't get me wrong:  my Nmother has lots of so-called "friends" who she has always smiled in the face of---and then turns around and talks terribly about them when they walk away.  And she has always done this.  She doesn't like anyone really.   And she doesn't like herself either deep down...trust me.  She knows she is not normal and is neurotically worried people will find out how insecure and immature and jealous she is.
The other thing that has shocked me since being on this board is how similar our horror stories are....yikes!
Has anyone else noticed these things?

[Nancy Drew]

Yes, Ana, my mother also talks about anyone and everyone who has any kind of contact with her.  Sometimes I just can't bear to hear another negative thing. Sometimes I take her to lunch, and sit across from her, hearing the babbling and think to myself "I have nothing in common with you..."  It has taught me NOT to be like that.  I was brought up that way, thinking that's how life was supposed to be..Thank God I think now before I open my mouth.  One by one, my mother has insulted and critisized every person who has willingly driven her around, taken her to appts., and now she is down to one, my cousin, and she is constantly talking about my cousin (a widow) who is dating this one and that one, going out dancing (she is 70) and just can't stay home..She usually ends her tirade with "but I don't care..it's her life!"  For someone who doesn't care, she never shuts up about it!  She had a friend, whose daughter used to chauffeur them around, treat them to lunch, etc..but my mother laughed and made so many comments about this woman's dogs (she has no children) and how she talks about them like they are as important as children)--no empathy!!! that she no longer gets treated to excursions with them.  She is burning her bridges as she goes along.  It is very sad..But she is to blame..What can ya do?

[Anastasia]

My Nmother doesn't LET them know she is making fun of them.  No, she is much sneakier than that.  She just sits there in silence and goes along with others program, but when they leave the room she rips them a new a-hole.  Different styles.  Neither one is honest.  
And I, too, swore I would never be like "her" and I am not.

[CC]

Yes, Anastasia, I find that I have always preferred the company of men to women.  For many years, until I matured, I felt somehow inferior to many women, even though on the outside I was very "popular" and had a lot of women "friends".  I was in a sorority in college - but I did it more for social reasons than having girlfriends - as a way to meet men!   I used to be annoyed with a lot of the conversations women had, finding them mundane (especially if they involved children, childbearing or pregnancy)!

I never really thought about why this was, but I am certain now it has something to do with Nmother. My mother has always been incapable of intimate relationships.  Her relationships with women are because they are socially superior people, or have some affiliation with something she values.  But when she has a "problem", she never confides in any of these women.

 I have a few healthy, close relationships with women now that I trust and have maintained them for years, but I still tend not to seek out the typical women-like clubs or activities.  I am more content hanging out doing just about anything with my husband instead of going for coffee with a female neighbor other something.  At neighbor's parties, I tend to be in whatever room the men are hanging out in rather than the women - and it's definitely not a sexual issue. Honestly, I think some of it is trust.  I tend to trust men more than women.. My father was NOT a narcissist.

Interesting point you make.  Has this been your experience?

[catlover]

Anastasia,
I can totally relate to everything you said (and I have to wonder if this topic wasn't prompted in part by my story... does that make me a narcissist?  ha ha - my therapist said I'm too codependent to be one).

One of the reasons I went into therapy recently is my inability to state my truth calmly and assuredly, because my backbone has been "emotionally beaten" out of me by my Nmother.  But it also has to do with my terror of being like her!  I am so afraid that I am being selfish or too demanding like she is, so it's hard for me to trust that when I feel I need more from someone, that I really deserve it - that I'm not just being a b*ch like her.

And my mother also has always gotten along better with men than women.  There is definitely a competition issue there.  It was hard for me to make women friends too, because I always felt they were judging me.  I felt I wouldn't be accepted by anyone if there was no possibility for sex hanging in the air. It's getting easier now that I'm in a 12-step program and have learned that women can be really great.  In fact, I have made it a point to hang out exclusively with women in the program (vs men) and have had the added bonus of getting some of the mothering I never had.

The part where you said "they love being the wise one who tells you how to live your life" is so right on.  If you read the last posting I did to the "setting boundaries vs trying to change the N" you'll see just how I've been falling into this trap recently, mistaking it for caring.  Also, the ONE female friend my mother has had for years was always the dependent type who came looking for advice.

Nancy Drew, I had to laugh when you wrote that your mother says "it's her life!"  That is exactly what my mother says when I choose a path she disagrees with.  (Well, actually she says, "It's your life!", but it's the same thing.)  Basically that translates to:  Well, if you don't do what I think you should than I could give a rat's a*s about you.

And YES, I have noticed how similar others' experiences with N's are ... it has been amazing me ever since I started reading this board.  I am so blown away by it I can't even tell you...[/quote]

[Anastasia]

Ever wonder why these Nwomen have kids at all especially since they didn't want them?  I was born waaaay before the pill and illegal abortion was the only option, so, I guess, my mother just felt stuck.  And she reminded me of this all the time, too.
Someone made a comment that their Nmother had children to satisfy her need for attention and slavery towards herself, so guess that is another answer for having children also.
I am radically pro-abortion now because of my Nmother:  if a woman does not feel capable or does not want children, she shouldn't have any.  That comes from the way my Nmother always threw it in my face how she got "stuck" with me.  And she raised me in the same manner:  resentful of "having" to raise me.
As for me, I have done the 180 degree on that one:  I have been a totally adoring parent because I so wanted my son.  It's a miracle he isn't more spoiled today...haha!  And he and I, as I have stated before, are close and have a healthy relationship according to all who know us.  I just would not repeat the cycle my Nmother laid on me.  But I had him at 33, so I had already worked thru alot of my feelings about my Nmother by then.  Probably helped the situation.

[Guest]

Ever wonder why these Nwomen have kids at all especially since they didn't want them?  
I am radically pro-abortion now because of my Nmother:  if a woman does not feel capable or does not want children, she shouldn't have any.

I couldn't agree with you more.

That comes from the way my Nmother always threw it in my face how she got "stuck" with me.  And she raised me in the same manner:  resentful of "having" to raise me.

Ditto.  Consequently, we never bonded the way a mother/child should, I've always felt like a burden or nuisance wherever I go, my self-esteem is virtually non-existent.

I'm very glad to hear that you have turned things around, though.  Excellent.

[Pat]

This is a very interesting thread and has provoked some memories for me.  My mother is 87 and as lethal as she was 10, 20 and 30 years ago.  So much for mellowing with age.  When I was growing up (I lived with my parents until 18 when I went away to school) everyone who lived around us (rural area) had something WRONG with them.  They were either lazy, sloppy, the wrong ethnic group, irresponsible, too religious or too poor or too rich - I don't remember anyone who was acceptable - except the parent who was doing the berating of the neighbours, relatives or otherwise.  Now, that did not mean that they weren't pleasant and graciouis and all the other facades - but as soon as the other person/s left, look out.  There was such contempt!  It took me a long time to understand that most people were interesting, kind, intelligent, funny, etc. and that it could be so nurturing and pleasing to be in relationship with all kinds of people!

Over the holidays I had several phone conversations with my mother - relatives (including her children) were selfish, greedy, drank too much, laughed too much, stayed too long, didn't stay long enough, etc. etc, etc. I find it exhausting to listen to and I feel sad that she is so closed off from feelings other than contempt and rage.  I also know that as soon as we're off the phone she's exercising the same behavior toward me.

Many times I have felt that frustration of believing I have "no backbone" - in fact I was recently trying to explain this to a friend of mine who thinks I'm the epitome of the assertive woman - I feel so far from that when faced with an N who wants something from me - it's a challenge to walk away from someone who is droning on about their many accomplishments and conquests, raging about some unfair circumstance, putting down people I care about or other N tirades......walking away, tellling someone to stop a conversation that is offensive - takes so much energy and resolve and I generally feel like a bad person as a result.  I'd like to say it gets way easier to set limits and maintain boundaries but it doesn't seem to - maybe early programming is just that powerful.

All the best and "thanks for the memories" ha ha
Pat

[Anastasia]

Pat, were you at Xmas with me at my Mothers...exact same person!  Whew.....

[Anonymous]

it's a challenge to walk away from someone who is droning on about their many accomplishments and conquests, raging about some unfair circumstance, putting down people I care about or other N tirades......walking away, tellling someone to stop a conversation that is offensive - takes so much energy and resolve and I generally feel like a bad person as a result.

When an N is ranting/complaining, the optimal strategy is to agree with them, block further conversation, AND LEAVE AS FAST AS YOU CAN. Trying to "educate" them about the negativity of their conversation is futile. Don't even bother. Your biggest challenge is to stop listening to the "I'm a bad person" tape. Tell yourself that you are an adult with a perfect right to choose your associates, and block people you don't like. That's an adult prerogative.

bunny

[CC]

I really believe the reason that they had children as Ns is because of their generation... its important to an N to keep up social appearances... and the reality is, there weren't the choices there are now.   It was EXPECTED that they had children, and it was not acceptable to go out of your way for birth control - my Nmother has come out and told me this, and she is 75 years old - all three of us were unplanned.  She is kinder than some of your mothers in at least saying to our faces that it didn't matter, she loved us anyway.  But her actions spoke louder than words.  I think if she felt she had a choice, she WOULDN'T have had any of us.  And, interestingly, her alchohol abuse began shortly after my brother (the oldest) was born.  Consequently, our mothers did what they could to cope with what they didn't want:  they controlled, manipulated, and abused to make it easier for themselves.

It is those very characteristic traits of an N which was the reason that for a long time I did not think I wanted children.  I didn't want them for all the selfish reasons.  I saw them as an interference, an interruption, and a responsibility that I didn't want.   I would roll my eyes in a restaurant if a child made noise - just like my mother does.  I would think in my head when a child was crying for a toy in a store "shut that kid up", my mother actually says it out loud to me when we are out together.  My mother felt all of those things I'm sure.. but would never admit it to us.  I still feel some shame admitting it to you all.

Many of you know that I am four months pregnant now.  I gradually changed my mind about having a child after being with my now husband for 9 years and then after two years of some heavy duty counseling - including the realization of my N-background (which happened about 8 months before I went off of birth control).

Since I have been working through my healing, I have begun to look at children differently.  I can find joy in their laughter instead of irritation with their loud noises, and so forth.  I never in a million years thought that would happen.   I don't think I will ever want to be a preschool teacher or want to babysit all the neighbors kids, but I've come a long way, baby.  I am looking forward to changing the cycle of narcissism in my own family.  I feel good that I made this decision with a clear head - that I am having a child because I truly want to and I am capable of loving the child the way they need to be loved.

You probably have seen in other threads I've posted the negative response I have gotten from my Nmother since I told her I was pregnant.  

Pat, I agree - the N in my life has not "mellowed" with age.. on the contrary - she is just as venomous at 75 as she was at 45. I really like the last advice given by bunny:  block further conversation and leave as fast as you can.

I don't want to turn this into an abortion discussion because it is so controversial and people are bound to get upset.  But I agree that people that are not ready emotionally to have children probably shouldn't have them, because the effects on the child will be just as devastating as a serious physical defect (just look at all of us here, ha ha!).  I know if I had had a child at age nineteen when I was involved in a serious relationship, I would not be the same mother I am prepared to be now at age 36.

I am wondering if any of you females out their had these feelings about children before you had your own (it is hard to admit out loud).

[Portia]

Post 15

[CC]

sorry Portia, I just typed a long response to your post and the whole thing somehow got erased!!! I will address this again later when i have more time..
CC

[Discounted Girl]

These N's live out "bad habits," plain and simple -- they are in the habit of being nasty and mean, self-centered and self-serving, they have no conscience, no empathy, and I wonder if they have a soul. If you could see past their fake eyeballs, it might be empty in there. My NQueenmother "says" she breast-fed me (the thought sickens me) -- she has told me about 7 million times that she did not touch me for 6 days she was so sick -- about how the nurses would bring me to her room and she would send us away. Too bad one of those nurses didn't take me home with her. I have had 2 children and the first thought after birth is to touch and bond with your child. You don't have to be human to feel that, you don't even have to be a mammal, you just have to be normal and not unnatural. I believe evil is to live in reverse -- it's unnatural and downright spooky the way these N's live. To mistreat your own child has got to be right up there at the top of the big NO NO's. Children don't ruin your life, children play the biggest part in completing your life -- that's how I feel. I have tried many times to regress my memories to infancy and toddler times. I can't, but I wonder what kind of treatment I received. I have often wondered what she did or said to me when my father was not at home. He is not without responsibility however, he should have removed me from such abuse. She is one sick puppy, always putting on fake airs and pretending to be concerned for others, telling lies and spreading rumors, arranging smear campaigns -- ah, the list goes on.  The only people she gets along with are those who haven't caught on yet, or who don't care or who are also big phonies. It's amazing to watch -- they are being fake with each other and they each know the other is fake and they keep on !!!!! It makes me want to pull out my hair (or their's)   . I don't remember my mother ever holding me, rocking me, telling me a story, reading me a story, helping me with my homework, teaching me a game, talking to me about boys or sex or my body, teaching me about skin care or my hair or how to dress, taking me to a movie, talking to me about my future or college or a career -- SHE IS WORTHLESS AND A BIG ZERO !!! Wait, she is a big NEGATIVE !! People who have never been hurt by an Nmother will not understand these words. I say shame, shame, shame. You made a big booboo. Please save any replies suggesting forgiveness, that's not my job.

[Portia]

Post 16