Did it

[Sela]

Hiya Long:

I'm much more clear now on what I need and what I want in life.  I'm also much more clear on myself in general.

What a great two things!!!  You are Long!!  At least...you sure sound like you are clear on these things.  You've come such a long way...from wondering if it was all your fault to realizing that this woman is clearly not what you need or want in your life and that she definately hasn't helped you to gain any kind of clarity on yourself.  She has twisted it all and keeps trying to do that.

Don't let her Long.  I agree with David.  State what you intend to do and do it.  Ignor HERRRRRRRRRRRRRRR ( how 'bout??).

She walks by you...doesn't speak...doesn't see you...in a public place....your daughter's school function....and WHOOOO does she worry about????   Whoooo does she consider???  Certainly and obviously she's not worried or concerned about how your daughter might feel seeing her mother act this way toward her father infront of her school teachers/friends etc.  Definately she's not the least bit consderate of how you might feel, infront of all these people and your own child, when she behaves like this on such an occasion.  This one act alone, imo, defines precisely WHYyYY you have made a very well thought out, reasonable and sensible decision.

Spit out her worms, Long.  Smile and look for some nice sea weed to snack on.  Her hook is laced with poison.

You have absolutely no reason to feel bad about what you are doing.  Any normal, feeling, reasonable person would do the same thing.

Sela

[write]

you know, I asked n-h to kove out almost 2 years ago, totally the right decision for us all, and I still have the occasional self-doubt after a bad day or a bad moment.

Well done for having the courage to move on with your life, lots of people don't and then regret it.

(((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((()))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))

[Marta]

"rebutting" all the points in my rejection of paying for her birthday plans with my daughter. 

This is the thing with Ns. If you get pulled into their arguments, then its crazymaking gaslighting world. Best approach, IMHO, is the broken record approach that is recommended with salesperople -- no thank you, I am not interested in it right now. Just stick to this one line, instead of being pulled into having to reason with someone who is unreasonable.

It may not be so bad if your daughter discusses all the needs with you. That way you have an opportunity to open her up to the sane standards of the rest of the world, and save her from crazymaking. For example, in this particular case, you might say that (a) it is normal to obtain permission from someone BEFORE making plans if you want them to pay, (b) does it sound like fair to you that I should be left out if there is a birthday celebration for you and I am paying for it? How do you think it would make me feel? (c) Surely your mom has some responsibility to you too, so should she not pay if she is taking you out for birthday? Now that we are being divorced, things will be a little different, but in the end they will work out. I know that with my crazymaking mother, I would have given a limb to have someone reasonable in my life.

How about D's custody? Will you file for joint custody?

Usually with Ns, their behavior gets SO bad when they are scorned that it really helps you become unhooked.

Best, Marta

[longtire]

Hi all, it has been a week of ups and downs.  I did not respond to her Email since I can't see anyhing positive coming of it.  I did my venting here, so I don't feel like another futile attempt to get my wife's attention.

Several nights this week I really began to question whether I should be getting a divorce.  Am I giving up to early? ( )  Is a major change right around the corner if I only stay? ()  Could I have done more to get things to work out.  (Done more, yes.  Get things to work out, no.)  Pretty much the same old things for me.  These times, though, I was able to retrace my steps pretty quickly, within an hour or so.  I journaled a lot and wrote down everything I was feeling and thinking and checked that against what I really thought.  The truth is, if I had known then what I know now, I would have just left earlier.  I am just very glad this time around that these panic attacks are much less severe than in the past and DON'T keep me from standing up and doing what I need to do to take care of myself.  All this makes it sound so easy, but it was still not fun to go through.  This is definitely not a straight line for me, more like spirals.  The (HUGE) difference is that this time, the spirals are getting bigger and are about escape and opening up, rather than being trapped.  The last time I saw her, I was more curious than anything else.  Will she ignore me?  Will she snub me?  Hmm... I wonder what that means?  Is she upset or relieved?

I am taking my daughter to dinner tomorrow, so I wil talk with her about some of these things, especially about her birthday.  I try to balance communicating with her being able to enjoy time with me.  The last thing I want is for her to dread spending time with me because it is not fun enough and is too heavy.  Actually, though, that sounds more like I'm projecting my wife onto her. She has not brought up any of these problems, but I want to address things with her and not let there be "elephants in the room" wiuthout discussing them.

I've spent quite a bit of my time this week going back over old posts and refreshing my memory on various posts, like "How You Become Prey to a Charmer/Abuser Personality".  I believe that I'm making good progress in most of those area to keep that from ever happening again.  I'm also on some Email lists for people with BPD's in their life.  That has been a huge help.  Sure enough, every time I start to doubt my observations and experiences with her, someone new joins the list.  I am taken every time by how many of their experiences I say "YES!" in recognition of.  (Really.  I say it out loud because it is so powerful. )  It only takes one or two of these to restore my confidence in my experience and judgement.  It doesn't just happen to me, and everyone else it happens to is as miserable and confused as I was.  I would never in a million years tell them that they deserved it or that the abusive statments by their BPD were correct.  I don't get to tell myself those things either.

I will start to try to work out a settlement this week.  Wish me luck!  I'll let you all know how it's going with that and with my daughter.

[mudpuppy]

Hey longy,

Have a question for you.
Why do you think it is you keep questioning your judgement about your STBXBPDSNAFU, or what ever you called her the other day?
I mean, you have convinced everyone here that she is impossible to live with. Why do you seem to be the only one who doubts your judgement? It seems fine to me on every other subject so it should be fine on this one too, correct?

mud

[longtire]

Hey longy,

Have a question for you.
Why do you think it is you keep questioning your judgement about your STBXBPDSNAFU, or what ever you called her the other day?
I mean, you have convinced everyone here that she is impossible to live with. Why do you seem to be the only one who doubts your judgement? It seems fine to me on every other subject so it should be fine on this one too, correct?

mud

mud, I don't know.  I do have good judgement in most other areas (except picking stocks ).  I'll take some guesses.  I have to admit, discussing this makes me feel really uncomfortable.  Having such difficulty in this area is something I feel ashamed of.

Growing up I got the message from my parents that there was something wrong with me for having feelings and not being able to suppress them the way they did.  In response, I told myself there was something wrong with me, ESPECIALLY with my emotions.  That isn't true, my parents were (are?) the ones who didn't know how to deal with their emotions and ended up projecting that onto me.  But, there is still a part of me I haven't got onboard yet that is holding onto the idea that my feelings and especially any decisions based on them are wrong.  Decisions based on facts don't cause me problems, even when I get it wrong.  The little voice whispers that my feelings are not valid, and cannot be used to support ANY decision.  Again, total BS because my intuition is right on when I listen to it instead of the whisper.

Reason number two is that I lived with someone for 17 years who told me I was always wrong and was the cause of every problem between us.  Even though that never made any sense to me, it took a little bite of my spirit every time I caved in an didn't fight it instead of standing up for myself and protecting myself.  I have never met anyone who is more convinced they are right, even when they are insane.  I already had a weak sense of connection to myself and to the world.  Then when she would tell me the most ridiculous things with the utmost, unquestioning confidence and the shock would blow my mind.  It would have been different if she had a passionate belief and was convinced she was right.  This was like saying the sky is green and then convincing herself it was right.  I didn't believe the things she would say, but between the shock and her unquestioning confidence, I did question myself.  I am still dealing with the after effects of this one.  I've made a lot of progress in this area, but have a ways to go.  I think it will just take more experience of making decisions that take emotion into account (not just reacting) and seeing the outcomes to put this to rest.

On the BPD list they call these things fleas.  They are not a part of you, but come from reaction to others.  Long enough away from the others who caused them and some hard work, and they eventually jump off and don't come back.  I believe these are my worst fleas and I keep working pretty much every day to face and feel my emotions and work through them.  Even since I posted this morning, I finally really GOT the idea that this person has never been healthy enough to knowingly give her consent to be in a marriage.  There was a legal marriage, but never an emotional or spiritual one between us.  I've only said this a thousand different ways here, but today I finally GOT IT.

[Gail]

I don't know if this analogy will help or not, but here goes:

I used to have our tax returns done every year by an accountant.  After I'd get them back, I'd go over everything and inevitably there would be errors.  I'd let the accountant know, he/she would do it over, and I'd get a big bill.  Finally, a light bulb went off, and I said to myself, "I can make my own mistakes a whole lot cheaper."  (Apologies to any accountants on the list, and I do check with one if I have a question.)

I realized a few days ago that I need to take the same reasoning to my personal life.  I have a history of letting other people influence me way too much--not trusting my own judgment or feelings about people or situations.  I'm always asking myself and others, "Should I feel this way?"   "What do you think I should do?"

I finally realized that I need to take more responsibility for my decisions and feel what I feel.  Then, at least if I make a mistake, it will be MY mistake, not somebody elses.  And I will have learned a whole lot more.  After all, I already know the lesson about not doing what others think I should do even when it goes against my better judgment.  I can make my own mistakes a whole lot cheaper than when I rely on someone else's mistaken judgment.  I'm going to self correct sooner if I see the path I'm on isn't the right one if I am responsible for that path and not answering to someone else.  And I'm going to take more time to really think a situation through if I accept full responsibility for whatever decision I make.

Our feelings are valid.  We were just programmed to think that they weren't.  Maybe it mostly just takes practice to finally retrain our thought processes along those lines.

[mudpuppy]

Jeez long,

Didn't mean to make you uncomfortable, and there is certainly nothing to be ashamed of.

Maybe if you could somehow look at this decision as not being based on your feelings but on the facts surrounding the total whackiness of your wife you wouldn't second guess yourself so much. Can you seperate whatever feelings and emotions are swirling around you from the fact that she can't be lived with? Its one thing to have feelings but that doesn't mean your decision is based on them.
In fact your decision making process, which we have watched unfold on the board here, has not seemed like it was based on your feelings or emotions, but on a slowly revealed set of realizations on your part about the actual nature of your wife's deep and apparently permanent problems.
Do you think maybe your emotions and feelings have played less of a role in your decision than you believe?

mud

[onlyrenting]

Long, I feel your progression with your feelings. You almost have to find a safe place for them before you can deal with them.

17 years is along time, it's like a slow death.  Wrapping your mind around the loss and the pain that goes with it has to be put away somewhere. What do you do with the pain and anger when for so long those feelings were told to hide. I think what is strange is unlocking  the hidden feelings from your long marriage.
 
Greiving about the life now lost, is sad and scary. I'm lucky my ex is in another state and all the old memories are not facing me each day.  When I was told I had to fly back to CA I had all kinds of thoughts how to avoid seeing him. For you seeing your wife, to face the real pain, keep hidden what feelings would cause you to follow through with the divorce. All I know being far, far away has helped me so much.

This will take so much courage to face her and have the strenght to push through the illusion once more.
Let your love for yourself be the driving force to get you to the next step forward.

OR

[longtire]

Gail, OR and mud, your posts have helped me to realize something I've been wondering about for a long time.  I blame myself, specifically my judgement or perceptions, to keep from having to admit and face that the people I care about most (my parents, wife) treated me with neglect and abuse.  As long as I blame myself, I don't have to admit the truth to myself.  It isn't that I ever really believe my self doubts, they just allow me to avoid believing the reality.  I think this was a way to protect myself from being clinically depressed that I started doing as a boy.  I don't need to do that anymore.  But now I feel really sad, so I'm going to go grieve.  Goodnight.

[Hopalong]

Thinking of you in your grieving, what clarity there was in respecting it, distinguishing it from depression. You sound like a survivor to me.
Thank you for some inspiration, with that simple statement.
Hopalong

[Plucky]

As long as I blame myself, I don't have to admit the truth to myself.

Hi longtire,
(BTW You are my inspiration.  You may feel like your butt is dragging sometimes, but you are miles ahead of me.  I'm watching and hoping I will have your courage someday.)
I guess it depends on what truth you interpret.  What is the awful truth you are avoiding?  Is it that you had the bad luck to be born into a dysfunctional family?   That you lived what you learned there for too long in your own adult life?  That your family was incapable of valuing you, and that was their own shortcoming?  What exactly is the bad scary truth you wish to avoid, where blaming yourself or feeling you deserve abuse is a preferable thought?
Plucky

[longtire]

Well, I felt some sadness last night, but mostly I felt acceptance.  It was a new experience to get to acceptance without extreme struggle this time.  I thought about a lot of the painful experiences in my life, mainly from growing up.  I am now able to see them not as showing problems with me, but the problems my parents had.  And, instead of struggling against it, this time I was able to just see each for what it was and accept it.  Plucky, the scary truth was that my parents didn't love me.  Oh, they did their best, but they never gave me any idea I was seen, heard, valued, wanted, protected, liked, loved or anything else.  When you are a kid, it is terrifying to realize that your parents don't really care whether you are around or not.  Not even to have the twisted, corrupted direction of N parents for guidance or feedback.  That feels like utter aloneness.  That feels like life or death.  After all, if my own parents don't care about me, why would anyone else EVER care about me?  (or take care of me)

To protect myself from being aware of that aloneness and existing in panic all the time, I figured that I must be bad and that if I could just fix the badness in me, then they would love me.  The problem was, I had made the badness up.  I could never seem to figure out how I was bad, or how I affected people or situations badly.  I was putting all my energy into finding the cure to this imaginary badness that I had invented exactly to distract me and suck up all that worrying energy.  Of course, it just turned into something else to worry about in every situation.

In a way, though, it worked.  I survived my childhood with hope that I would one day figure things out, stop being bad and be lovable.  It just turns out I didn't have to do the first two, and the third was always there, just that no one ever told me.  Now, I take care of myself with some support from my chosen family.  I'm no longer terrified of aloneness, because I'm always there to keep myself company.  I still do long for caring and love.  I no longer see that as an unattainable goal or a quest to fix some undefined problem with me.  I see that as something I can actually have in my life.  Not in the distant future as some theoretical goal, but as something *I* can *really* have.  No hoops to jump through or impossible tasks.  Just "normal" self-caring and protection.

P.S. Got a nasty note from STBXW.  Everything is calculated to be "polite," no swearing or anything obvious.  But the tone is derisive, demanding and snide.  The good news is that I no longer buy into any of her guilt-tripping on any level, unconscious or conscious.  I see it as sad and humorous now that I understand what is really going on.  I just read it, look for the point or two that matters, and decide how I will respond.  I feel so different now.  It is definitely good, but new and will take some getting used to.  I'm not even afrid that I will react rather than responding now.  Her attacks and attempts at control are not going to work on me anymore because I make my own decisions about what I will do.  She can't play on my beating myself up for my mythical badness.  I'm not playing that game with myself anymore.

[plucky guest]

Plucky, the scary truth was that my parents didn't love me.

Yes I see. I would just substitute 'couldn't' for the word 'didn't'.
Your progress is amazing.
Plucky

[Healing&Hopeful]

Longtire

Congratulations…. Congratulations on accepting and realising you are important and you are worth your weight in gold.

I believe that our minds, our brains are a really powerful tool and what we think and believe are our tools for turning around our past and having a better future, a positive future.

Big hugs


H&H xx