Something to think about

[Ellie]

Hi all,
I was here last year, moved on to new things in life. I grew up with N father, depressed mother, N sis. I have recently been hit over the head with new information I would like to share.

One of my children was recently diagnosed with early onset bipolar disorder. I have spent hours and hours researching this terrible, biological mental illness. We have changed many ways in which we react in our family. After many trips to doctors, therapists, etc. I have discovered the illness is extremely heritable. I describe my father as narcissitic, depressed, mean, angry, possessive, abusive. I describe my mother as depressed, enabler, narcissitic in her own way. It was determined the mental disorder comes from my side of the family. No doctor ever said exactly how it was determined, but the symptoms are all there.

I just read in an article on bipolar disorder in kids that when left untreated, bipolar disorder can manifest itself into personality disorders such as narcissists, borderline personality disorder, etc.

One therapist explained to me and my child that when a parent has bipolar disorder in their immediate family, such as a father, mother or both, if the parent did not inherit the disorder, it is a high risk they will pass it to an offspring or 2. After thinking about it in detail, it occurs to me that my father was bipolar and it grew into full blown narcissitic personality disorder. To think that the right medication could have meant a completely different life for me and my family...

But then, if I had realized this disorder prior to having children. I may have been afraid to have a family. Ignorance is bliss...

I have read on this board about people who have children who now appear to be Ns. Bipolar goes untreated so much of the time, because the sick do not think they are sick. They may think they are depressed, but when they are manic, they think they are fine, the world is not, but they are just fine. Children as young as 3 are now being diagnosed with Bipolar Disorder. The kids that are having uncontrollable rages in public, or school, or punching holes in walls, screaming uncontrollably, hitting, cursing, hurting others physically, and cannot be stopped or they get worse and when it is over they cannot remember it, could be bipolar. Many get misdiagnosed as ADHD, as did my child. It took 5 years to get the correct diagnosis and on meds for bipolar, Stimulants such as ritalin can make bipolar symptoms much worse.

Worth some research I guess.

[Plucky]

Ellie,
thank you for posting this.  It is scary.
Plucky

[Sallying Forth]

But then, if I had realized this disorder prior to having children. I may have been afraid to have a family. Ignorance is bliss...

Hello Ellie,
What you describe about hitting, punching, etc could be other disorders as well. There is Conduct Disorder among many other disorders which are NOT personality disorders. And then there is this behavior as a result of abuse. My s-son did a lot of this when he was young due to being sexually abused.


On the quote above:
I decided to not have children of my own at age 16. I know some people here on this forum said N's make those kinds of decisions. So I thought for a long time, after reading this forum, that I might be N. However now I realize this was out of knowing something was drastically wrong with my Nmother beside being N. She has OCPD as well. I didn't want to have children until I was healthy. Well now it is too late to have biological children. I have a s-son and that is enough for me. Plus I have my fur kids.


IMO I believe personality disorders stem from two things: Nurture and Nature. How the child is nurtured and their personality. I can clearly see this in my Nmother's and Nfather's childhoods and their personalities. They started butting heads with each other from the beginning of their marriage because they came from nearly the same childhoods. Abuse and neglect.

[Chicken]

I agree with Marta, once treated, people with bipolar disorder are able to recover and be wonderful, aware, kind, caring and compassionate people.  My sister has bipolar disorder, and was once in a strait jacket, and so drugged up we thought she'd never see the light of day again.  She came through all of this, and dealt with so many hardships after her recovery also.   I think she is the strongest person in the universe.  She is happily married with kids now.

There is light at the end of the tunnel for manic depressives

[Ellie]

Thanks for the support. I think I missed my own point when I wrote this last night.

After years of thinking my family was just screwed up and mean, nasty, hateful, evil..... I have discovered that my father was bipolar and it developed into N after years of untreated illness. Now that I have read so much and watched my daughter clearer, I see what I lived with when I was a child. I see how I was always on eggshells then around my father just like I am on eggshells today with my child. But, I know what is going on now and I can get help for my child. My father would never admit there was anything going on except that he was the ruler of the universe and we all bowed to him. Life will get better, it is rough with school now - she spent the past month expelled. We are working hard to get her an IEP and all the help we can.

The part that amazed me was the connection to bipolar and N. When untreated, bipolar can manifest into full blown N. That's what I have lived all my life around and will live another generation of this and I'm so tired of it all today...

Sorry, long meeting at school and it drains me describing all the symptoms, the morning rage, thinking of getting through antoher day and wanting so hard to laugh and play again!

[Gail]

Ellie,

My heart goes out to you.  One of my children showed symptoms of mental illness since she was very little.  She's been under psychiatric care since she was 12.  The first diagnosis was OCD, which I now think was incorrect.  Recently, at age 19, she has been diagnosed with bi-polar II.  I think she also has BPD.  We are trying to get the medications correct now.  I have a large family, and she is the only child with this illness.  Except for the youngest, who is a little up and down (but not like the oldest daughter, and she is not oppositional), the other children all have stable moods and seem well adjusted.   

I truly believe the root cause of J's problems is genetic, so I don't beat myself up over it.  That was one thing the first psychiatrist who treated her told me--that her illness was definitely due to biochemical factors.  Some people's mental illnesses are due to both environment and genetics, but I think some are strictly due to genetics or some injury to the brain.  Since the brain is an organ just like the heart or stomach, it makes sense that sometimes its chemicals get out of whack, causing the problems seen with mental illness.

Even as an infant, J couldn't comfort herself or sleep alone, and it started right after birth.  She was oppositionally defiant as a young child and has always been just extremely difficult.  She was very abusive to me as a teenager.  Unfortunately exH didn't accept how ill she was, and several years ago let her go off medication that was working pretty well.  She did the inevitable slow decline and has never really stabilized since, despite getting back on medication.  She's now on additional medication for bipolar and I'm hoping it will help as the dosage is increased.  She's also getting counseling and will undergo more extensive psychological testing.

I don't know how old your daughter is, but your awareness of her illness is going to be a big plus for her. 

I want to pass on something that helped me immensely.  I was sharing my frustration, pain, and guilt with a woman who also had a child with a mental illness.  I told her that I didn't always handle J correctly, and then I felt guilty.  (You know, it's hard to always be cool and calm when an out of control teenager is raging at you.)  She told me that if she handled situations "just right" 50% of the time, she thought she was doing well.  I felt a load lift off my shoulders with that one sentence.  It was an acknowledgement that living with a person whose mental illness is not under control is extremely difficult and we can't expect ourselves to handle every situation well.

Now J lives with my exH which gives me and the younger children some relief.  I have found, though, that I need to be 100% responsible for her medical treatment as exH just won't follow through.

I do think now that my mother probably is bipolar, also.  She never got treatment or would even consider such a diagnosis.  Now that she is older and lives alone, her symptoms are not triggered as much.  She does best when she can be in total control of her environment--ie no one is making messes or disagreeing with her, etc. 

I'm thinking of looking into a support group for family members of those with severe mental illness.  It can be hard for others, who aren't dealing with something like this, to understand how very difficult it is.  I really felt judged as a parent when she was younger.  But, I couldn't control her behavior then, and I can't control it now.

Gail

[write]

hmmm.

A lot of misinformation is around about mental illness in general, but N-s producing Bipolar or vice versa....I never heard of or experienced that. I would be interested to read any research materials to support this.

I have Bipolar 1 disorder, where mania is a problem.
Despite this debility I have had a relatively successful life, with several good jobs, very little debt, kept my dysfunctional family together and being able to search for and engage suitable medical and personal support when neccessary. I muddle through, even when it's a struggle, and I've never physically assaulted anyone, or even committed a crime for many years since minor infractions of adolescence and reaching maturity.

I look back at my childhood now, and my mother was a bipolar with alcoholism, my father was BorderlinePD with alcoholism, and the rest of the family were working class inhibited Brits who were living three centuries behind the times. Ie. not accessing modern services or diagnosis. With alcoholism, often.

I really feel bipolar is over-diagnosed, I have many friends who have been told they have it, when to me what they had was a strong reaction to something happening in their lives....unless someone has experienced the cyclical mood swings of depression and mania, or the psychosis of overwhelming mania, I feel there should not be an immediate diagnosis of Bipolar.

Just like ADD or ADHD or compulsive disorders, popular disorders to diagnose today, I feel it is too easy for a medic to pull out of the hat a magic dispensation releasing the whole family from its part in the 'sick' person's behaviour.

Children respond to the environment they grow up with.
My own respond to mental illness cues far more than I would choose to inflict.

( I have several children I am responsible for as a parent because of the unique nature of my current life, though I only gave birth to one myself; yet I see no difference between the children I inherited or my own, they are all equally affected by their circumstances and equally critical where they feel we let them down- a major breakthrough I  guess, for it is the kids whose family system is so tight as to allow no individuality or escape which perpetuate mental illness solutions )

Bipolar is also an amazing disorder- so many people have extraordinary abilities and multiple talents through that excess of creative energy; I believe it has fuelled much of my life, and frankly if anyone has such a child to rear- just go with it, respond to your child's abilities and needs, and don't try to ring-fence them with beliefs about what our society says are correct. It is in trying to push people to be what they are not that a lot of mental health problems occur.

[Moira]

Hi all! First off- hey Write, how are you?! Liked your reply. as some of you already know, I am also bipolar 1 and OCD. There are alot of traits associated with bipolar- esp. mania- that resemble Nism. Often when bipolars are first being diagnosed we are too often given the label of a personality disorder. as Write says, you need to have a clear history of mood swings and clear derpession and mania to really diagnose. Have to have clear family history and observe person over a period of time to see patterns. Anyone with a diagnosis of a major mental illness- called Axis 1 diagnosis according to the psych daignostic " bible'- DSM - can also have an Axis 2 diagnosis- any of the personality disorders. I wouldn't say it never happens- obviously- but working in psych for 20 yrs, I've rarely seen a true bipolar also diagnosed as a clinical N. My family has every mental illness represented- bipolar, schizophrenia, depression and personality disorders. My mother was N- met all clinical criteria- and also suffered from OCD, anxiety disorder and depression- as well as addiction and alcoholism. My older sister is also a clinically diagnosed N who has absolutely no other mental illness and her oldest daughter is a N with alcoholism. I agree with Write wholeheartedly- I would not trade my brain for a " normal" one! I am also an artist and writer and I have always looked at the world in a different light than others and it is a gift. My illness has given me so many strengths. My neice said to me recently about this- you are the only person I know who is so passionate about everything, take great risks and despite getting hurt, always are willing to take chances and see good things in impossible situations. I am blessed that in the past 5 yrs. I've finally found a combo of meds that works and have had an excellent shrink forever- also think that as I age, my illness becomes so much more manageable. Although bipolar has caused me much sorrow, there has been equally as much joy. I think it was Redfield Jamieson who said something about bipolars' capacity to feel so deeply and passionately in ways others don't- I agree.

[write]

the grandiosity which bipolar patients show can seem N behaviour, but as you say Moira, it's what happens over not months but years and a pattern of mood swings builds up. It diminuishes when the mania passes, and in my case I can go from over-confident to terrified in a matter of hours- then back again, if it's rapid-cycling.

I had a bad year with rapid-cycling mania last year when some hormonal problems flared up, it also caused endometriosis and destabilised my mood enough to need large doses of seroquel for months.

But we got through it, and every year gets easier- partially because I have accepted the diagnosis finally, and who I am, and am learning to like myself despite my flaws, and to accept that there will be times I am reliant on medication and other things have to take a back-seat.

I think some of the reason I've had so many dodgy relationships is low self-esteem and thinking because I had problems I should be tolerant of other people's ( even when it involved abuse etc )

Even now I feel guilty if I speak up too much, or have to ask for things...but I've learned to do it anyway!

And last night I had a good night out, a man was there I've met socially several times, he's always very nice to me but last night he was flirting! I enjoyed it, but unlike other times I'm not looking for a relationship right now, so if he wants me he'll have to convince me; and if he doesn't or can't- well he's not what I need at this stage.

What a turnaround for me, usually I would be the one to facilitate the relationship then bend over backwards to make sure everything is ok for him!

So thanks for asking Moira- I'm doing good, better than ever, hope everyone is having a good ( or better ) day too XXX