A General Theory of Love

[jordanspeeps]

interesting topic, ceemee. i’m going to check out the book.

i believe i understand your line of question although i have no clue as to exactly HOW to find these folks and don’t feel i’ve arrived personally to this plane in life yet. i see this message board the way you do, as a great place in beginning and wonderful to revisit/rant

i may agree that it’s not necessarily the healthiest environment at certain points in your emotional development, because the barrage of input can short circuit your own natural defenses. here, i experienced an overwhelmingly supportive initial response quiickly followed by a feeling of  okay, “what now?” definitive, effective coping mechanisms and strategies are what i am now in need of working on to combat the hellish parts of my Nlife.

naturally there are those of us who are gregarious and expressive and maybe even quite mentally healthy but for every willing poster, there are probably 60  more readers who while finding some solace in the shared experiences of others, have not the “coping tools” themselves necessary to extricate themselves and soar.

we can’t change N’s, we must learn to cope with whatever “damage” is done to our psyche. and for that an ENORMOUS amount of intestinal fortitude, resilience, and wisdom is required.

Noticeable qualities of such a mentor could include:

they exude a quiet confidence  (apparent in the eyes)

they quell the natural urge to identify and isolate the flaws of others, they tend to highlight the positives in life, even if they haven’t had their fair share of them.

never forgetting, they forgive

they maintain well -proportioned balance in life (may experience stress or have tribulations in their life) but are able to balance (offset) them with healthy scenarios like recreation, exercise, healthy eating, cathartic activities like reading, writing, philosophizing ect.

have the outlook that yes, there are bad things, evil things in the world but have
the assurance that they possess the tools to not let  “bad things” in life consume or destroy them. it would be quite difficult to “misalign” their limbic health because with another’s because theyare able to empathize without becoming consumed by others problems

their self worth or value is not at all wrapped up in what others think of them

i agree workplace is not exactly best place to meet this person, as the very nature of work demands a certain level of selfishness, oneupsmanship, apathy, and despite what co-workers chat about around the water cooler, you don’t always get to honestly know what other things they do to maintain healthy balance.

i, too, believe health is a continuum.  there are ups and downs. the wisest with the most to share have had their healthy doses of downs and what makes them so magnetic is their personal ability to pull themselves up and succeed, (whatever success means) despite the horrible “downs”. one whom you may find to be a virtuous mentor today may have been “hell on wheels” in the past or may turn dour if any of their protective hedges are removed, i.e., security, supportive “family”, physcial health, etc.

in search of this “mentor, ” my entire life, i feel i have met folks along the way who, despite any physical, character, or emotional flaws have a wealth of “good” to share and for all of their trials have learned the salient, universal themes of life in a way that was not destructive to others. 

honestly, i find the elderly in general, those in the senecense of thier life as being the most valuable resourse we have in this life.  developmentallly speaking, they tend to be less selfish, more socially minded and more introspective.  even in those who’ve been abused or damaged” themselves, the wisdom tends to be invaluable. you know when you are in the presence of someone who has a truly well-lived life.  you actually feel BETTER and uplifted and inspired upon departure, never worse.

keeping in mind that the query you pose may be one of life’s great mysteries; imo we as human’s tend to be more often flawed than righteous, and we choose, more often than not, to be conservative in the way we go about bringing about positive change in our lives.

is it possible that you are the mentor you crave?  as you further develop your  ability to self-soothe and mother YOURSELF, you may find that other humans may not possess all the qualities you would require to experience real satisfaction and happiness and stability in your life. i believe that YOU yourself are indeed the most equipped to provide those things for yourself.  you may find at that point that suddenly, without really noticing it, you’ve become quite the MENTOR you desire.   

best to you CeeMee and i'm sorry i was so long-winded
Tif

[CeeMee]

It’s great to hear from you again Tif.  I didn’t find your post long winded at all.  In fact I re-read it several times.  I didn’t want to miss a single word you had to say.  You bring up so many interesting points.  I planned on responding last nite but it got too late.

Your experience with the board really got me thinking.   Many of us members have probably had a similar experience of going through the various stages from   excitement at finding the board and spilling our guts to slowly pulling back and waiting to find out what the next step is. 

“definitive, effective coping mechanisms and strategies
are what i am now in need of working on to combat the hellish parts of my Nlife.”

we can’t change N’s, we must learn to cope with whatever “damage” is done to our psyche. and for that an ENORMOUS amount of intestinal fortitude, resilience, and wisdom is required.

I consider myself very lucky not to have to deal with a N in my daily life as  so many on the board have to (that is with the exception of having to deal with my own N tendencies that slip back every now and then).  The  closest I’ve come in recent years to having to cope with another N  is having to deal with a N co-worker and an enabling boss, which made my life absolutely miserable (but I learned so much from the experience).  It is much harder if it’s family and they live with or near you.   I think I am beginning to understand what it must be like for you and others.  It does sound exhausting.

Thanks for your list of “mentor” qualities.  I think I’ll compile all the information I’ve gotten from folks just to see what the whole person looks and feels like. 

I’m sending you this list of my suggested strategies for coping with a N (from a N’s perspective) that I sent to another member which may be of interest to you and others. 

Set and defend  boundaries 

Be consistent and avoid sending mixed messages. 

Be clear about what you want and don’t want (i.e. don’t take anything from a N that you don’t need or can provide for yourself; don’t let a N do anything for you that you can do for yourself)

Be willing and unafraid to show appreciation and love for the N.  (that means looking for and finding the parts that are not broken which may be hard if the focus has always been on the parts that are broken).

Be an example of what “healthy” is like, feels like and acts like

Be honest with yourself and your N (especially yourself because you can’t be honest with others if you aren’t being honest with yourself first)

When the right moment presents itself, talk honestly and openly about your perceptions, feelings and thoughts as they relate to the N and the N’s behaviors. 
A loving exchange of information from the polar ends can lead to answers and resolutions.  This is something I read about in “A General Theory of Love” and agree with.  In fact, I think this is the only way out of the conflict that exists in the world today at every level (individual, family, social, national, international…)

I can’t say this will work with all N, but I know it can work on some.


CeeMee

[mudpuppy]

Hi everyone,

I'm not sure I have a general theory of love, but I do have a general theory of healthy/unhealthy people. Its pretty simplistic (like me ), but I think 90% of it boils down to insecurity.

Lack of connection as wee tots with a person's parents seems to guaruntee insecurities later on in life. And some mechanism displays that insecurity differently in different people in all the assorted PDs and neuroses and just plain bizarre behavior of people.
Now some insecure people try to overcome it and learn how to gain the confidence of valuing themselves as they are, not as others see them, as Tiff was pointing out.
Others, Ns for instance, spend a lifetime concealing their insecurities or using others to try and make them feel secure. Still others use drugs or alcohol for relief.
People either face their insecurities and fears and try to overcome them, (these are people on the road to health), or they run away from them, these are most of the people who damage those around them and themselves.

The majority of the healthy people I know I have met in church. Many of them have not always been healthy but have recovered from some pretty terrible experiences.

By the same token a lot of the least healthy people I know I have met in church as well.

The most secure person I know I met in a dentists office, and I married her.
So if you just stop brushing and flossing you're sure to meet a healthy person eventually. Of course they may enjoy the meeting less than you.

mud

PS. Just to be clear, I do floss and brush, I just needed my wisdom teeth chiseled out.

[highestgood]

Thanks Ceemee,

I was going to go out and buy the book anyway and your post has lit my fire to do it sooner than later.

A couple of thoughts....


I agree about the N-bashing to some extent  but I find it a little bit suspect. I am becoming more and more curious about my part in the equation and wonder how much has to do with  the whole 'Love Addiction' scenario. I absolutely bridle at the neat labelling that goes into the whole addict thing but there is useful info in Pia Melody's book about the classic patterns of the cycle ... could be the N is in the Love avoidant position . Anyway I'm getting off the point which is, I have felt a sense of comradeship and relief looking at the posts on this board about the terrible things that N's do but we are all complex beings and I wonder about the N tendencies in myself.
I went to a workshop recently on Abandonment and had huge empathy for everyone in the group who told their tales of woe , many of whom had N people as their abandoners , but the nagging feeling persisted that all of us in the room were sucked into the cycle of dramatic intensity or somehow trying to recapitualte some earlier experience and everyone sounded like a victim... some of them truly were treated just hideously or had hideous luck ( or 'genius' for finding people to treat them so badly or up at die/leave/etc at the most inopportune time).

I have no doubt that there are perfectly good and innocent people who have had the great misfortune to be steamrollered and  abused by N's and that having a childhood where one was not seen or heard is the perfect set-up ( or some biochemical vulnerability)

I juts know for myself that I have chosen to participate in a painful and crazymaking relationship with a man who has all but been impossible to please. And that is my doing.

However, when I look back and read his notes and emails I know there is valuable stuff in what he was telling me however upsetting his grandiosity was. Even as he was screamign at me, a small voice inside of me was telling me , 'listen to what he is saying'.

So while I would still love to work out my relationship with him ( and I don't know if this will ever be possible because he does still do typical N things like; not listen to me, not empathise, stay focussed on his point of view, need to constantly be right, has little or no ability to control his irritation) I know I did not help matters by being needy ( and increasingly needy everytime I thought he would leave-= which was every other day) and leaving him  when I was pregnant ( after he screamed and raged for about two weeks) and not going through with the pregnancy to my everylasting regret. ( I was worried he would treat the child that way and/or undermine me as a mother  or just be impossible). BUT i did not give us the benefit of getting counselling because I thought he would never own his behaviour or listen to what anyone else had to say ( few people are as smart as he is). I see now that we were both sure the other person could see/or feel them and I guess I was so vulnerable I did feel like a victim. So these last two years since have been excruciating for me since I was ecstatic to be pregnant and gave up a lifetime dream and dont know if I can conceive again. (Plus he just got someone else pregnant which was my worst nightmare .. in case I was wrong about him and he tunred out to be a loving father).

Finally, I am impressed by the great intelligience of those communicating on these pages. However, to quote someone or other, in some ways I agree that understanding is the booby prize. The hoped for result, at least in my case, is an ability to take in the good,
find a way of relating which is not heart attack inducing and to find peace inside myself and hopefully with a partner. For me that means staying out of denial, clearing my vision so I can really see what is coming up for me ( sooo many defences and projections) and so, ultimately I can see other people as they really are. Then they feel seen and heard too. And that self involvment and reactivity that I have, though not ill intentioned is the narcissism I have to work with in myself.

My 'N' person, when I asked him what he thought love was said, "it is having the guts to show the other person who you really are so they can make an informed choice". Maybe he wasn't so nutty after all. He was NOT about you tell me your wound and I tell you mine, we can then coddle in a pseudo-intimate way and nobody has to change. I still wonder what might have happened if I had not 'snapped" and we had got into therapy together.

Thanks... and I welcome any thoughts ( and mean no disrespect to anyone working on their N inssues).

[Gail]

My first thought was that someone who would scream and rage at a pregnant woman for 2 weeks is probably not someone who is a very good person, IMHO. I wonder about his internal self-talk that would allow him to justify treating you that way.  Then he goes out and gets someone else pregnant, which seems extremely irresponsible.   

I'm very sorry for the loss of your baby.  The stress you were under, both physical and emotional, would have made it really hard for you to think through all the ramifications.   I hope you have someone in your life that can help you grieve.

Gail

[highestgood]

Thanks Gail...

 ( and I hope Ceemee isn't annoyed that I brought up stuff that diverted form his thread). To be fair, he wasn't ragin about nothing... he was freaking out about being overworked and worrying about money and the baby coming . We had a training going on at our house plus he was seeing regular clients and he  had very little time for anything let alone to spend  time with me... He did not share his concerns with me- or if he asked for space I thought I gave him enough  staying away several nights  .Iit would have helped if he had lessened his workload and trusted we'd be ok ( I actually had some money which he knew). When we did find time he would start complaining about how I was always coming towards him and then he'd spend the next two or three or four hours getting madder and madder instead of just taking a time out and going for a walk with me.. neither of us knew how to share appropriately which is not to excuse him his inability to manage his anger/anxiety . Neither of us could. I'm sure once the dust settles fully ( it's two years later) I will see almost all of the picture and then I might know how much he was actually an N and how  two people could get caught in such a terrible dynamic.  I'm still not sure how I survived. I no longer want to die everyday which is a huge improvement.


Anyway,  juts ordered a General Theory on Amazon for $ 8.77.


Love to all on this board.... what an incredible bunch.

[Sela]

What a cool thread!  This one really got my cells a workin' .....thanks for starting it Ceemee.  I agree with so much of what's been said already and want to add:

When I think of what healthy means to me, I have to admit first ......it's a rolling scale.  Like being a perfect human, I don't think there is such a thing as perfect health.  But if I try to use just one word to describe what a basically healthy individual is, my choice word is.......content.

It just seems to me from past experience (how I personally felt when I thought I was as close to healthy as possible for me...yep.....I've been there ), and from being around some people who I view as "basically healthy"......it's that general feeling/expression of contentedness (is that a word?) that comes through.  If I'm basically content within my own thoughts, my feelings and my body feels comfortable.....then I consider myself basically healthy.  Going by my own definition then.......I know I've been healthier...so I don't know if you'ld want to stand beside me.  On the other hand, I may be closer to basic health than a lot of people, so standing beside me might not be a terrible idea  .  That isn't much help is it?

IMO physical health, mental health and emotional health..........are all separate and yet connected.  Eg.  If I'm phyically ill (say I have a cold), it can take away from my mental health (I might think waaaaay more negative thoughts than usual), and my emotional health might be outta wack too (I might feel angry, sad, anxious, frustrated, etc...certainly not content).   Once the cold is gone, if I'm generally thinking good,  positive thoughts, if I feel fairly glad about life, content inside emotionally, and if I'm comfortable physically......I might say......I'm basically healthy again.

Pretty well any disruption in one of these areas of health....will likely disrupt the rest.  So that means ......if a person's mental health is off (even just by thinking in ways that they don't consider healthy), that can reflect on their emotional and even physical health.  Being basically healthy includes all three areas, I think and they can and often are at different levels on the healthy scale, at any given time, but can be generally within the same range of......content/comfort.  This isn't to say that one must always think lovely thoughts, feel wonderful feelings, or be completely enthused about our bodies.  But generally.....much of the time....if we are comfortable and content with what we think and how we feel...we will be enjoying basic health, imo.

Where to find such individuals?  I'm not sure there is a specific place or places where basically healthy people hang out.  My best guess is that being basically healthy attracts other basically healthy people...so it's a good thing to strive to be basically healthy.   Maybe we have to feel fairly content in order to be better judges of what that means and to be better at finding it in others?   I do think it's a good idea to seek out and keep company with others who I admire for their attitude, apptitude for the positives in life and liveliness.  Unfortunately, some people are good at faking all that.

It just seems certain that we are not healthy when we think about nasty stuff, feel upset and have aches and pains and I can't see how that would attract the basically healthy to us, or appeal to their desire to hang out with us.  Maybe the trick is .......it takes one to know one......kinda thingy???

As to the theory that being connected to others/feeling loved is the cure for our broken hearts......

That makes a lot of sense to me but I wouldn't prescribe that for all unhealthy people.  I think first....before we will really experience all that ......we have to get connected and feel love for ourselves.  We almost have to give up the hope that some other person will come along and really envelope us in deep love and connect emotionally with us.  That could happen......don't get me wrong.......but we might end up very disappointed if we rely on that happening, or if we wait for that to happen.  Also, I really believe we need to feel that love and connectedness from something bigger than us.

For me....I feel lucky to believe I already have those things from God.  But if one does not have that belief......I think it may be important to find it through some other higher power....be it mother nature or whatnot.  If we feel a part of and connected to the world and the universe.......it seems easier to live in harmony with ourselves and others.  There is still a lot of work involved....in striving to love and connect with people, because we are human and not able to act perfectly at all times, but I think it's gotta be easier for those who already feel they belong in the world and are a part of it all to get along with, share, connect and love other people.

Maybe feeling disconnected and unloved is the biggest sign of unhealthiness?  So the theory put forth by these docs seems logical to me....that fixing that will help us move toward basic health.  We're most certainly not healthy with broken hearts....and love is a powerful thing.

((((((((((((((((((((((((hugs to all))))))))))))))))))))))))))

  Sela

[CeeMee]

Highestgood,

This must be so painful for you.  You are brave to open up and share it.  My heart goes out to you.  I admire your honesty and believe that it will ultimately bring you the results you seek.  Seems to me you have quite a bit of understanding already not just of self but also of the complexity of this man you loved.  It may be a booby prize, but imo, it's the way to the grand prize.   I wish you the best in love and hope that one day your dream of bearing a child that will have two loving parents will also be realized.

Have you seen a therapist  to discuss any of this that you've been through? 

One point that I wasn't really clear on was what he meant by saying love is  "having the guts to show the other person who you really are so they can make an informed choice."  This sounds a lot like the classic N mindset of ...this is who I am and you can either accept it or not because I'm not going to change who I am.  I'd much rather like to hear...this is how I am and I'm working to be better.

Let me know what you think of the book.

Mud

Thanks for the reply Mud.  I'll add "secure" to my list of characteristics that define a healthy person.  I agree that both secure and insecure can be found in the church.    I think probably more insecure flock to the church in search of the security they lack.   The spiritual and emotional bonds/attachments that the church and its members provide can be very healing.


Sela

Thanks for those thoughts on physical, mental and emotional, contentedness.  I'll put them on the list too.

I was just kidding about trying to find a hangout   But it's interesting that you say it takes one to know one.  In my experience, that is generally true.  Birds of a feather flock together.  But I hold out hope that the goodness in healthy people will motivate them to want to look for the good hidden or not so obvious in the less healthy.

Sela wrote  "...we have to get connected and feel love for ourselves first."   

I agree that self love and connecting with oneself is important.  In Theory of Love though, they say the first step to emotional healing is being known by some other person first. 

 "Those who succeed in revealing themselves to another find the dimness receding from their own visions of self."  (from the book) 

 Once revealed, I can know who I am and begin to love my newly revealed self.  I don't say this just because the doctors wrote it in their  book but because this was exactly my own experience.  It wasn't until I was able to connect with my therapist and through the  understanding ear of my husband that I came to know who I really was and began the healing process.  (When I speak of love and connectedness, I don't mean it in the sense of romantic love but rather the loving acts of listening, understanding, and wanting to discover another).

Connectedness with God/higher power and the universe is important too, but I'm wondering if to get to that place where one is truly connected to God and the universe and feeling that one belongs, mustn't one be "loved" by some representative of God here on earth first. If not a parent, an authentic Christian perhaps, who takes the hand of this disconnected person and walks him (not into the church collection box but)  into the embrace of understanding, acceptance and unconditional "love."  Getting back to what Mud said earlier about unhealthy people being in the church, I would venture a guess that these are the folks who connect directly with God and bypass the people.  IMO this usually results  in judgmental, self-righteous so-called Christians not authentic ones and definitely of the unhealthy sort. 

I only use Christian as an example.  That could easily be Muslim, Buddhist, Jew or some other loving/healthy human being.

[highestgood]

Hi Ceemee,

Gee... thanks for your support. I am going to see a therapist tomorrow  so hopefully i can move through this excruciating place- made moreso because now it appears that the new person my N has been seeing ( for all of 2 months) is thinking about keeping the baby ( she got pregnant  less than a month after getting together with him, a week after he told me he knew he should probably end it because she wants money etc and he's not into it). N tells me how they don't argue and she is able to hear him without becoming defensive and he can finally express himself with someone.



Great... and it's ok for her to be greedy and seflish and what have you because she admits it without becoming defensive like yours truly. Ouch .They are in Hawaii where we were going to be living together... can it be more painful, not to be a victim, well yes. I was trying to get pregnant again  probably because I have been half out of my mind with grief and stuck in some crazy repetition compulsion for the last 1 and a half years  ( I'm now 45) and she gets pregnant first time they go to bed at 33.  I'm trying to remind myself that the universe is neutral  and not trying to punish me and that if I think it is punishing me it is just a projection of my guilt. He will go along with her decision either way- and it changes daily- and I realise I should not be into their business now since it only concerns me in that  it brings up feelings,  but he is also quick to point out they they are able to talk through ideas and options and discuss things  where we could not. Triple ouch. So I'm resigning myself to my powerlessness and my irrational desire to have another chance and make it all ok. Quickly waning, as I realise I am not that important in his life anymore and he has a lot more to deal with - rightly so.
I know everyone who says I should be thanking my lucky stars to be rid of him means well but I can't seem thus far to get my head around it.

And Yes, he pretty much had the attitude, Look this is how I am and I'm not going to change and I told you who i was when we got involved. But he likes to say he is working everyday on his bullshit and busting himself ( mmm).  What is different is that while he's complained deeply about every women he's been with he says she is different  and so I look and feel like the bad guy who doesn't know how to communicate and be in relationship where he does. I also project dubiousness about the reality of their 'knowing' each other and how real it is but it is possible that people meet and click immediately. I wasn't exctaly hoping that their relationship would fail  but I was relieved when he told me last week that they both knew having the baby was not right and she was going to go ahead and end it.


 I'm so reluctant to let go completely and I'll work on this in therapy. I don't know why he has such a hold on me. It seems all he wanted me to do was be real and own my bullshit with a mininum of fuss ( and yes he has always been very foccussed on my bullshit which has always bothered me.. he's rants about how 99/9% of the world lies cheats and steals and he tries everyday to take nothing  - he has a martyr complex all he does is give - and he is very convincing. He is also not hugely freaked out by tyhe recent events because he believes he lives so much  in his truth and intregrity that he is protected from toxicity ( me ? her? the wrong situation) and if he has to surrender his life to supporting her financially he will ( a recipe for diaster I'd say since he has a hostory of building resentments). But it is his life.  Really I think I have lost my mind.... and myself.


He also accused me of not loving him or not feeling loved ( and feeling used which was deeply upsetting for me to hear) because I could not listen to him or hear him which he then used to justify why he got so angry with me and was , he says, the only ting he ever wanted. He truly thinks he has no ego. But rather than continuing to thrash out my confusion I do see that I am responsible for me and all that matters is working on my stuff. The thing is.. what of my stuff - or that he relfected back to me - is really my stuff.. since I tend to assume guilt and feel it's all true.

PS. She's 15 years younger than he is and is able to say things like " Bob, I'm just not where you are at yet". Either  it's true, she's naive, she's a manipulator or she's smarter than me. By far.

[CeeMee]

Highestgood,

The best news is that you start therapy right away.  With any luck, you'll get a good one and be able to sort through all of these thoughts and emotions.  This is precisely how I managed through my pain.  Talking it out and finding out what parts of the complicated story of my life were real and which weren't.  Ultimately, I got to decide which were my issues and which were not.  As I stabilized this became a much less daunting task.  It is most difficult for those who don't acknowledge their role in the drama at all, but I don't see that in your case as you've described it.  I understand that overwhelming reluctance to let go and that feeling of complete helplessness and powerlessness.  I've been there and back on more than one occasion.  It's like a free fall.  You know what awaits you but you haven't the strength to fight that enormous gravitational pull that takes you down, down, down.

I think it's a normal reaction after breaking up (just read some of the posts of others in very similar situations), and we've all experienced it at some point in life.  I know I have and not that long ago.  It was just about the time I found this board that I was going through a bad situation, and through communication with  others,  I regained balance and was able to pull the string that released my parachute.  At the time, I was involved in some very dangerous and destructive behaviors.  I knew this  but couldn't find the strength to stop myself.  Honestly, the communications through this board stabilized me and I began to feel my strength return.

It's my sincerest hope that you will stay and join our communications and that one day you'll be writing a Newby on the board about a distant memory of your recovery from a broken heart.   Good luck with your therapist tomorrow.  Let us know how it goes.

Best thoughts,

CeeMee

[miss piggy]

Hello HG and all,

Just catching up.  This is a great thread about love etc. but wanted to respond to HG:

Ns see the weak and needy as their biggest competitors.  This includes children and frail seniors.  Some are smart enough to know this is not a socially acceptable attitude and mask it by attaining deflected supply through these centers of attention.  But many come right out and tell you what a drain kids and old people are.  They take all the time, money and attention away from Ns.

So I say to you, just wait until the new GF's baby is born and watch the show.  It is stressful anyway for two "healthy" people who wanted and planned for the baby together to cope with such an awesome new responsibility.  I believe your X is snowing you big time.  JMO. 

I'm glad you are seeking therapy, because you cannot go through this by comparing yourself to another unhealthy situation.  Get yourself squared away first before you seek to add to your demands with a new life of a baby.  It sounds like you are perhaps still "hooked" by him and his opinions and perspective.  Ask yourself why you are still pulled in by his comments.  What does it make you want to blurt out?  When you blurt, you will learn something about yourself. 

I learned some significant stuff when I blurted "don't think less of me because I need something!"    Your blurts might be different.  But they will tell you something really true.  Just blurt in a safe place!

Would like to contribute on the "love" part of this thread, just to say, you know you are around a healthy person when you feel it's alright to be yourself, not holding anything in.  The ability and willingness to learn from mistakes is a big indicator for me.  Some people are "coachable" and the ones that aren't I try to avoid like the plague. 

MP

[highestgood]

Can't thank you enough you guys. I  was hugely activated when I wrote that last post and wanted to thank you for the great suggestions and support; especially about not comparing my situation to another unhealthy situation. I got sucked into that awful desperation of a woman longing to bear a child - and teetering on the edge of perimenopause - who would  almost forgo reason and common sense because of  pure primal desire.  I'm sure many women out there who have not been able to have children, or waited too long or didnt meet the right person know what I am talking about. I'm juts beginning to accept the, for me, very difficult reality that I may not be able to create a child with a loving partner biologically.


Ironically, got a call last night and it seems both of them realise that it's not right to go ahead with the baby because they have too many differences ( and, naturally, she doesn't appreciate him enough !!!). Funny to hear him levelling the same  criticisms against her as he did me - and this was supposed to be such an incredible woman. Anyway it's been a wakeup call.

I hope soon to not be sharing and thinking about him so much and to get on with my life. I am feeling much better already (perhaps because I have examined my   painful projection of how everything was going to be so much better for them, hence I was the problem and maybe, just maybe, he wasn't an N after all). But reality has put paid to that. Unless she changes her mind again.

Again thank you all...

Sometimes after going through a particularly rough chapter of my life I imagine all the players and cast and crew in that particular episode to be sitting around having drinks and chatting ; everyone cordial and friendly and laughing about the nutty/tragic/crazy sitatuations that just unfolded all for the education of all involved. The arch enemy and the rival; the underdog and the victim; all of us remarking on what a drama it was and everyone thanking each other for playing their part all for the greater good . 



Thanks again.

[Sela]

hg, what you wrote seemed like raw pain  , which seems to be gone now (very glad about that!) but this jumped out at me:

99/9% of the world lies cheats and steals and he tries everyday to take nothing  - he has a martyr complex all he does is give - and he is very convincing. He is also not hugely freaked out by the recent events because he believes he lives so much  in his truth and intregrity that he is protected from toxicity....

..... plus he was seeing regular clients and he  had very little time for anything let alone to spend  time with me... He did not share his concerns with me- or if he asked for space I thought I gave him enough  staying away several nights...

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmm.....I wonder why he needed....space?   Why he had no time to spend with you?  Why he didn't share with you?  Maybe he's not so honest......maybe he was doing a little secret service? 
He certainly stole from you..........he stole your dreams and then shook them in your face, like candy infront of a baby.  He took your devotion and flung it away, like useless garbage.  And he criticised you enough to cause you to believe some of his bs...enough to question your own thinking....but not enough to squash it completely!  Oh no!  You got away!    I'm so glad!!   I don't like the way this guy treated you.  Not one bit!

.... tells me how they don't argue and she is able to hear him without becoming defensive and he can finally express himself with someone.

Bet he said that about you too, in the beginning.  It's only been a couple of months, for crying out loud, he can keep things rosey for a little while, my guess.

....both of them realise that it's not right to go ahead with the baby because they have too many differences ( and, naturally, she doesn't appreciate him enough !!!). Funny to hear him levelling the same  criticisms against her as he did me ...

I BET they have differences....maybe he's duped her too??  I wonder who keeps changing their mind?  I dont' find it funny that he's tooting the same horn on her as you.........I find it very toxic N behaviour.

....he's complained deeply about every women he's been with he says she is different ...

I bet he said the same thing about you to his previous flame.  Let's face it......we're all different.  But is anyone different enough to take in all his bs, digest it, worship it and devote their entire being to it?  That's really what I bet he's looking for.....honourable non-toxic martyr that he is (NOT!  ).

...I asked him what he thought love was said, "it is having the guts to show the other person who you really are so they can make an informed choice".

Gag me with a spoon!  What a twisted version this is!  It's more like........having the empathy to accept the other person for who they are.....It's not all about him eh?   He has no clue ( )

I'm sorry hg, I'm with those people who are cheering for your good luck in not having married this one, and escaping having conceived children of his (this is not the kind of father you want for your child do you???).  I believe you can do much, much better!!  I know it hurts really bad to lose this relationship but you are gaining much more than you are aware of, at this point.   I think you will come to realize that soon. I really do. 

Please do not give up hope of finding that special someone and please......convince yourself that you deserve to be treated with respect and honour......not like some client/congregation member/hired help/discarable servant.  I hope you will decide not to take his calls, not to read his emails, not to listen to his junk......any more.  It won't be easy but it will be a relief....you'll see........I bet.

((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((hg)))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))

Sela

[miss piggy]

Hello HG,

Wow, Sela.  Great post-game analysis!  Some guys know what to say and that's all it is--talk.  Like having index cards in their shirt pocket, thinking, hmmm, which line will work on this one?  I am disgusted that this guy is leaving a line of terminated pregnancies in his wake...moral arguments aside, just...ew.   

If you were an employer (I know, this is kind of a tacky analogy), but if you were interviewing people for the opening of lifelong companion, sure you would have an interview, or lots of interviews.  And perhaps you would do a reference check.  But something H and I have learned is to observe the track record of past accomplishments vs. listening to what people say they are going to do. 

My H also teamed up with a self-portrayed "victim" of an ex-business partner.  After six months (the light bulb went off after only 3 months), my H became an ex-business partner also.  This guy lied like a creepy player at a dark bar, saying whatever H wanted to hear in order to take advantage of what my H had already built for himself.  After they "lived together" H got a glimpse of the real deal and bounced him out on his bee-hind.  Mr. Victim sang his same sorry song for another friend.  My H worried that his reputation as nice guy would be trashed and I told him he couldn't worry about it because this guy's true parasitical colors show up quicker than a Polaroid.  Guess what?  The new partnership dissolved after six months also.  It was so validating for my H, you can't believe. 

It's too bad, but some people are just bloodsuckers looking for host animals.  MP

[Sela]

Thanks MP.

  ....this guy's true parasitical colors show up quicker than a Polaroid.

Applies in both cases, I think.

It's too bad, but some people are just bloodsuckers looking for host animals.

And if you've ever had a leach on your ankle, you'll know you can't tell it's there.  It can suck away for a long time before you get this creepy feeling something isn't right.  You reach down and.......

 ..........eeeeeeeeeeoooooooow!!!  The thing has worked it's way in deep and has to be salted or burnt out!  Yanking it out leaves you bleeding and bleeding and it could break, part of it staying behind, a mean infection follows.  All the while that bit stays there festering.  Not pretty at all.

Yep.  I like your analysis too.  Very appropriate.  I hope  hg has some salt handy.  And some antiseptic.  It's the least painful method.

Pretend I'm your loving friend, hg, and believe me when I say:  I don't like the way he's latched on and drained you.  Please stay close to those who are relieved he's away from you.  You may not see what they see right now and that's ok.  I bet you will.

Sela