How to let go? Very very long....

[Plucky]

Hiya Plucky

He got me a card "To a loving daughter" this year.  This was after a couple of months of not speaking, so I thanked him for the card.  Normally he forgets my birthday which was why I thanked him.  He doesn't see the harm in sending cards but I said no contact means no cards either and he hasn't sent another one since.
H&H xx

So, normally he doesn't send any card - in fact he 'forgets' your birthday.  (My father did the same, or said as much, but now that I have children, I know that you cannot really forget your child's birthday.)  Only when you wanted no contact, does he send a card that ironically says, "to a loving daughter".    Adn he 'didn't see the harm' in it?  How about violating your wishes?
What an Nmeister.
Plucky

[Plucky]

I doubt it was shame driving him.  More likely.......his desire to keep his lies from being detected.

Yes....what was I thinking? Shame is only for the victims of Ns!
Plucky

[Hopalong]

Hey poor weary (((((((((((H & H)))))))):
His card made me think about this. What a hook is in that simple card-treacle. I think (this may sound dumb)--it's the word DAUGHTER.

Almost like, you're stopped in your tracks, poleaxed with misery, because this messed-up man just nailed you with your bio-label.

Yah, sure, that's one fact about your existence.

But how wonderful it might be if you woke up embracing H&H with the same kindness you embrace others (who are not hurting you the way he is)...and...looking in the mirror, go,
there's H&H!

What a good person she is! Hmm, look at all the different things she is, and then start rattlign off a big list to yourself of all the good positive affirming things you are that are NOT "daughter."

Then if you want you can tack that one on the end of the list. But you know, it really doesn't belong at the top. You are a LOT of good labels my dear, and I think you're stuck on that one.

Hugs,
Hopalong

[Healing&Hopeful]

Hiya all

I hope you are all well?

((((((Portia)))))... I did read the link, thank you for posting it.  I'm not sure about the splitting, mainly because I do feel angry and sad about the situation, about parts of my childhood and I am probably relating to it more now than I ever have done.

((((((Sela))))).... I do think you have a point.  Most of the stuff I remember about my bio dad is between the ages of 8-10 so I'm guessing that I was somewhere around this age when this happened.  I've only just remembered it.  He went to the bottom drawer of his dresser in the front room and pulled out a framed photo.  It was his and Mum's wedding photo.  I can't remember why he showed me it but I remember him saying "And you were just thought of when this photo was taken".  I'm really not sure if it's this comment, but for years I thought they got married because Mum was pregnant with me.  It turned out that she was 3 months pregnant when they got married.  When I was 17 I said to Mum something along the lines of "You were pregnant when you got married the first time" and she turned to me and said "I could slap you for that comment".  I remember realing in surprise because I didn't understand, and in alot of respects, still don't.  She said they would have got married anyway, but deep down I do believe that they only got married because of me, because she was pregnant.  Mum said that at the time bio dad had said you can't get pregnant the first time.

What might I say if it were my child?  I really don't know.  One thing it did was make me totally determined that I wasn't going to end up the same way.  I'm amazed I've got married as I was adamant I never wanted to get married.  Even when I first met my husband.  And would you know, I actually asked him to marry me!!!  After we'd been together 3 years and because of the kind of guy he is, I felt sure.  Of course he's not perfect, no one is, but he is gorgeous, very kind, will help anyone and he didn't judge my family which previous boyfriends have.  He's not confrontational and it's very rare we argue.  Sometimes I have no idea what he's doing with me, but I am very glad he is.

(((((((Plucky)))))... I think with the card situation, he was quite happy to have no contact.  He said to me that lots of parents have no contact with their children, it's more common than you think.  So if it's so common for parents to have no contact with their kids, why send cards?  Why make a phony show that you care when you clearly don't?  Because that's how I see it.... just a phony show.

(((((((Hoppy))))).... Good point... he always says "She's MY daughter" and he uses the word daughter a lot.  There is another part to divorced parents that I notice more now than ever before.  Even when you have a stepdad, even when they've been in your life for years, you are always still your Mum's daughter.  Other family members "and over their is J's daughter and their son N".  "This is J's daughter".  I notice it with my BIL as well... he's a stepdad to two now grown up children.  "These are my wife's grandchild"  I say to him, they may be your wife's by blood, but you married your wife and they are part of the package.

Take our wedding... when we were preparing it my MIL asked if I needed to invite his wife's children and grandchildren.  I replied that they were my BIL's stepchildren and she realised what she'd said.  An innocent comment but it really struck a cord with me.

I do not think people realise the physchological aspect this has on children.  I mean, pretty much everyone does it so when I say that a family is not necessarily blood related, it's balls really.  Because people automatically introduce as blood related.

Take care all

H&H xx

[Portia]

Dear H&H

Sometimes I have no idea what he's doing with me, but I am very glad he is. I’d guess it’s because you’re a kind, empathic, loving, real, intelligent person. That’s enough for starters. Are you embarrassed yet?  :DHey can you cook too?

I’m gonna jump in on a couple of things that struck me:

He said to me that lots of parents have no contact with their children, it's more common than you think.  Hahahaha! Sheeeesh. *sigh* He’s excusing the fact that your relationship is non-existent by saying ‘everyone does it’. That’s really quite sad and pathetic.  :(He has no idea of what a real relationship might look like but he knows, intellectually, that this is a real *humiliation* (note that emotion) so he has to make some excuse to tell himself – not you – to tell himself that he’s really an okay kinda guy. "It’s nothing to be worried about. Everyone does it." Yeahhhh sure. Pass the blindfold. It’s nothing to do with you H&H; it’s all about his self-image, building it up, lest the narcissistic shame comes flooding him. Because if it does….there’s nothing left to hold it together. 

So if it's so common for parents to have no contact with their kids, why send cards?  Why make a phony show that you care when you clearly don't?  Because that's how I see it.... just a phony show.

Again, it’s not about you is it? It’s about how he sees himself. He might have decided that although you don’t want contact, heck, he has an image of a good father and he’s going to make that image work for him. Not you. It has absolutely nothing to do with you, the real you. It’s all about the ‘you’ that is part of him, part of the picture he has of himself.

he always says "She's MY daughter" and he uses the word daughter a lot.
That’s an ownership statement. My daughter, my object. Not a real, living, breathing person with her own brain, oh no, MY daughter – an extension of me, a reflection of me. Sorry H&H.

When he fights with you, he fights with what’s in his head (probably his mother): he does not see or HEAR the real you. And that won’t change.

The only thing that will change is your reaction to him. One day it won’t matter to you what he says about you, to you. All you’ll see will be his hurt, his sad life and you’ll think maybe it’s cruel to carry on fighting someone so weak.

But not yet eh? There’s lots more anger and resentment and hurt in there I would guess. Oh, hang on, maybe that’s meee …..gotta go again. take care. You're okay

[Portia]

Pee Ess:

It was his and Mum's wedding photo.  I can't remember why he showed me it but I remember him saying "And you were just thought of when this photo was taken".
I’ve been there too. A wedding album in fact. Icky icky. Why did he show it to you? Why do you think?

Was it because you’d be interested? Was he interested in your reaction? Did he ask your opinion of the wedding dress, the other stuff? Did he heck.

He was offloading his emotional crap on to you. A child. He wanted sympathy and love from you. Just like the hugs. Use is abuse.  :xUSE IS ABUSE.

When did anyone hug you when you needed or wanted it? When did anyone ask you what you wanted to talk about? When did anyone notice your needs? When did anyone respect your opinion, your questions?

The photo incident is manipulative, like so much in his relationship with you.

Ahhhh heck. This is me again! Maybe it’s you too eh? bye for now

[Healing&Hopeful]

Oh Wow (((((((Portia))))))) hon.... You're ok too... I read what you posted and you could see the light bulb ping on above my head!  Of course... and there was me thinking I had a part to play, what a silly billy I am (joke btw).  Because then he could tell his mates, well although my daughter doesn't speak to me, I still send cards.... meaning, I still do my bit and I'm a good dad.

I am starting to remember stuff.... I remember him taking me to the park a couple of times.  I used to play while he stood at the edge, I remember that because he was into CB radio, he used to encourage me to talk to his mates on the CB and I had my own handle Daisy May.  I remember that he used to buy me sweets, and I remember one time when he wanted to take a video of me driving his car along this field.  It was downhill and I couldn't reach the pedals.  I remember being quite scared and I didn't want to do it, but looking back he did basically push me into doing this.  About 6 years ago now I went round to look after the dog with a couple of friends and he got this video out, starts when I was about 1 and finishes when I'm about 9 I think, all set to music and stuff that he did.  He only got it out, not to embarrass me because it wasn't about me, it was about his videoing skills and the fact that he'd put it all to music.  Even on the video I look scared out of my brains in the car!

I remember once as well not wanting to go one Saturday... I was screaming and crying because I didn't want to go, saying his house was horrible and his car smelt.  I don't really know what triggered this off but Mum and him were talking me round and I went.  I remember him saying "There we go, that was ok, wasn't it?" during part of the day... and "You do enjoy coming to see me, don't you?".   

Just out of curiosity.... what do other parents say when they are talking about their children?  I thought the my daughter bit was because my parents have divorced and am just curious really.

H&H xx

[Plucky]

Hi there H&H,
I assume you meant healthy families when you wondered how people talk about their children.  Can't help you there.  My father used to refer to me as his Daughter and it always sounded like the word was in italics and had a smirk behind it.  In fact, I was usually the Other Daughter.  Not the Daughter.
Plucky

[Hopalong]

Wow. Portia. I am so impressed. I can't wait to hand you one of my stuck scripts sometime.

(((HHHHHH&HHHHHHHHHHH)))))
I wasn't writing about what "Daughter" means to HIM. Or why HE uses it, or abuses it, or puffs his empty self up with it.

I was writing about YOU. How the word hooks YOU. Stops YOU. Freezes YOU in in the mirror so you can no longer clearly see your beautiful self because you're looking in there and seeing..."DAUGHTER". It's not a bad word! It's just that I think it's a word that, right now hon, you are hurting yourself with. I think you are using that word to whack yourself, slap yourself, say mean things to yourself, pinch yourself every time you relax, and just bang on your bruises.

I think it's a word YOU need to unhook YOURSELF from. It seem right at the TOP of your list of the words you might call yourself. Really. A list. Like...list the things about H&H...the good lovely valuable wonderful things, that aren't about any external approval and especially not his...I'd just love to read a list like that, that's all about YOU.

Love, lots,
Hopalong

[Healing&Hopeful]

(((((((((Plucky)))))))))  I was never the other daughter for the sole reason I was the only daughter.  You're definitely a very special person in your own right.

Ok ((((((Hoppy))))) honey.... here goes, an honest list of good things about me...

Actually this is quite difficult because I immediately think of bad things, big nose, lazy, quite selfish, bad daughter etc etc...

Think good things girl!!!

Actually I didn't realise how difficult this would be... I'm not very good at pointing out my good things because I think that makes me arrogant and selfish.... hmmmmm.

Generally I'm kind and helpful as I don't see the point of not being.  I feel it makes my life and others more disruptive by not being, plus helping others does help me to feel good about myself.

I have a sense of humour (I think!), but I'm not really funny.

I love laughing, and I love hearing my husband laugh.  There are times when I'm in another part of the house and I can hear him laughing really heartily to something on the TV... I always smile then.  Actually I love hearing most people laugh.

Errmmmm, I don't know.

Oh poo... that was pants, wasn't it?

[Portia]

Hopalong, your list of good stuff is great. Can you take the good stuff and root it all out? It sure needs rooting out. Deal? I’ll do some of the icky:

Actually this is quite difficult because I immediately think of bad things, big nose, lazy, quite selfish, bad daughter etc etc...

H&H Holy Moly!  Having a big nose is a bad thing? Yikes!!!!! I’m a bad person! I’m doomed! I have a HUGE one! true. hahahaha!

Lazy eh? Hmmmm. Hmm. Who says? It’s a bit relative. I’m not working the fields 18 hours a day. I’m not eating chocolates and watching TV all day either. Lazy is an interesting word. I spend most of my time thinking (like now). Some people would call that lazy. To me it’s my reason for being. Thinking is a luxury I can afford! I like the sound of that. I can’t afford lots of ‘stuff’ and ‘things’. Lazy. What does it mean to you H&H?

Quite selfish. Okay I’m on the floor now, typing with my toes. I fell off my chair in shock. Selfish? Selfish is always doing and saying what you want to do and say without any thought or consideration for any other person. You qualify? I think not. Who thinks you're selfish?

Bad daughter. BAD DAUGHTER!   
Where’s that thread, ‘the most N comments ever’? How about this one I remember:
“If you’d have been better children, we would have been better parents!” True. True story.
There is no such thing as a bad daughter. Or a bad child. Or a bad son. You bad child! You spoilt my life by being born!

How are you a bad daughter H&H? Really, in your head. You’re not bad, but it doesn’t matter what I think. It matters what you think.

BTW I haven’t mentioned your Father setting you up on dates with his mates when you were 17 (have I got that right?). That’s sitting very uncomfortably in my head. How old were his mates? What were they like? Did you ever date any of them? Yes I want to know although I have my fingers slightly covering my eyes. I think it’s important. Maybe!

[Portia]

I really should get on with stuff but ….I have to respond!

I am starting to remember stuff
really? Truly? New stuff? (I’m excited! Honestly, this is great.)

.... I remember him taking me to the park a couple of times.  I used to play while he stood at the edge, I remember that because he was into CB radio, he used to encourage me to talk to his mates on the CB and I had my own handle Daisy May.
Showing you off huh? His little performer.

 I remember that he used to buy me sweets, and I remember one time when he wanted to take a video of me driving his car along this field.  It was downhill and I couldn't reach the pedals.  I remember being quite scared and I didn't want to do it, but looking back he did basically push me into doing this.  
Yep. He did. He really wanted to meet your needs didn’t he?  :xNOT. Did he take you to the circus, to the park on the swings, to the cinema to see Disney films, to eat ice-cream? Etc etc. All the normal stuff. Use is abuse. Scaring your child isn’t necessary. And it ain’t nice.

About 6 years ago now I went round to look after the dog with a couple of friends and he got this video out, starts when I was about 1 and finishes when I'm about 9 I think, all set to music and stuff that he did.  He only got it out, not to embarrass me because it wasn't about me, it was about his videoing skills and the fact that he'd put it all to music.  Even on the video I look scared out of my brains in the car!
Has he given you a copy of this video? Or is your precious early life only his to own? He makes me want to vomit. Bleurghhhhhhhhhhhhh….that’s better.

I remember once as well not wanting to go one Saturday... I was screaming and crying because I didn't want to go, saying his house was horrible and his car smelt.  I don't really know what triggered this off
How about it was the fact that his house was horrible and his car smelt?  :DThose sound like good reasons to scream and cry. Or how about the fact that when he sees you he scares you half to death? That he uses you for his entertainment? That he makes young (how old?) Daisy May talk to his mates? Is that fun for a young girl? Is that appropriate???????

but Mum and him were talking me round and I went.  I remember him saying "There we go, that was ok, wasn't it?" during part of the day... and "You do enjoy coming to see me, don't you?".   
It’s so sad. But the manipulation levels are so high, the guilt-tripping you! This guy is an emotional 6 year old.

Okay, I better go. I haven’t showered. I smell.  :DBack again another day.

[Healing&Hopeful]

Hiya (((((((((((Portia)))))))))) hon... I meant negative things, not bad.... more I think of negative things before positive things.

I don't think I've got a bad nose... it just sounds bizarre, doesn't it?!!!  I don't like my nose or my eyes though.... however these are the bits which I've inherited from my parents which is possibly why I don't like those parts of my face.  My husband will say to me gorgeous sexy wife, and I'll reply silly blind man.... however he also says silly blind girl when I say gorgeous sexy husband )  Being a newly married I do love the sound of saying "my husband"... do you think that could be the same as the "my daughter"?

I think I'm lazy because like now, when I should be working, I'm not.  I think I'm lazy because our house isn't clean and tidy... you know those kind of things.  It's probably all in my head.... no one actually says I'm lazy, I just feel it.  I feel kind of paranoid as well because I always think everyone can see through me.... can see that I'm not working when I should be, come round and see the house and think I'm not a good wife.  Do you know what I mean at all?  Maybe I should be looking out for the men in white coats!!!!!

The bad daughter bit stems from being the black sheep of the family... the one that doesn't conform to what the rest of the family want me to be.  The one who smokes and drinks alcohol, the one who doesn't sit in front of the TV or have sky TV, the one who goes abroad on holidays... the one who is basically nothing like the rest of her family.  This is why I do think it's me a lot of the time.  There's my bio dad, my stepdad, mum and half brother... the first is weird, the others conform and then there's me... how can I not think I'm the one with the problem?  Apart from bio dad the other 3 are the same.... you see I feel selfish for not being like them.  I guess I feel selfish for being my own person!!!!  Although it was traumatic at 17 and I remember what a scared child I felt in the bedsit that first night, I also know that this is the bit that possibly saved me, that allowed me to turn into the person I am today.  It forced me to gain control, to direct my life and mainly to become my own person.

On the whole I'm quite happy with the person I've become, although I don't shout about it... I do help people, I am kind to people and animals and I know that I am a good person.  I just feel uncomfortable saying good stuff about myself, probably because I think they're just words.  My bio dad says he's a good person, will help anyone etc and he will, but he always expects something in return.  I do take criticisms personally though, more personally that most I've noticed.

Yes, you read that right Portia *sigh*... he did try and set me up with his mates... they were in their 30's.  I went out for a drink with one, basically to shut dad up but that was it.  It's shocking isn't it?  He thought that because he had his girlfriend who was much younger than him, then obviously I should be the same and what better man to choose someone for you than your dad.... And then he'd go on about how bad I'd be if I got pregnant.  When I think back it's really sick.  Thank god he didn't have any sick mates otherwise I may have been telling a very different story!

No I don't have a copy of the video and I was about 8 with the CB radio... The screaming and crying day... looking back if it were my child, I hope I would have took to the time to find out why she was screaming and crying, why she was so distressed.  I hope I would have sent the day home for the day without her so I could sit down and find out why.

Fun... well I didn't really have much fun... not with any of them.  I can't remember any of them playing with me, and then when my brother was born I was expected to play with him.  With bio dad it was his needs and with my brother it was his needs.  My main enjoyment of my childhood was when we used to go to the club when I was about 14/15... there was a park and we could play outside.  Although I was still supervising my brother, I do remember enjoying it.

I remember other little bits as well.... I remember when I was 7 (and I know I was 7 because my brother had been born but we were still in our old house), I was showing my brother an Etch a Sketch... as I picked it up to leave, it slipped and landed on his head.  He was only a baby.  Mum was worried I'd brain damaged him, and then my stepdad's parents came round... I remember sobbing and was curled up in a ball in the kitchen.  I was so frightened.

I'm sure you're showered and smelling sweet again now ((((Portia))))

[Hopalong]

H & H--
WE SEE YOU! WE SEE RIGHT STRAIGHT THROUGH YOU!

Yepper. And there it all is:
a good, decent, just-fine-enough sweet human being
flaws and all
huge honker nose, really, you should have to pay an extra tax for that
sweet beating heart
very fine mind that's getting clearer all the time
something of a preoccupation with guilt that she's getting sick of...

Yep, all there. Transparent as glass. Dust bunnies under the bed and likely the dishes aren't washed either.
But for some odd reason, her hubby's so happy he laughs in a room all by himself.

Hmmm. What's right with this picture?
EVERYTHING!

(You definitely gotta practice your what's-good-about-me lists more. In the mirror. Until you actually believe it.)

You're not lying, you know.
Hugs,
Hopalong

[Healing&Hopeful]

((((((Hoppy)))))  I find it really scary that you can see through me... seriously, your comment made me feel so afraid, but what you see and what I think people see are two different things I think?

Plus last night I was consumed by guilt... it wrapped itself around me and I felt like I was inside this huge ball of guilt.  Scary stuff.  Has anyone else felt like this?