holiday frenzy from N in-laws - what to do?

[CeeMee]

Hi Stranded,

I can totally relate to your in-law story.  That could be my own story.  I'm glad things went smoother than expected for the holidays.  They usually do for me when I stop thinking about all the drama and focus on my nuclear family.  I agree with all that has been said so far.  One thing that bothers  is that your husband wants you to stand up for him when I agree with others that he should be standing up for you.  What exactly does he want you to do? 

Stay out of it.  Family  usually has a way or reconciling eventually but that same forgivness is not equally  extended to the in-laws, which could leave you on the outs years from now after they've worked through their issues.

I've been married twenty years and have had to deal with my husband's N mother the whole time.   I let her do all the manipulating she wants to behind the scenes (she'd never say anything openly about how she feels about me).  I show up for the holidays, make my appearance and depending on how I feel, I will visit  for as long or as short as I like. I make myself disappear after I've had enough.  She resents it and finds some way to slight us, but I really don't care. 

This Thanksgiving, I wasn't much up for it and after dinner I took refuge in my room.   The following day, when they all went shopping, I I chose to stay home.  When I am up to it I come out of my room and carry on where we left off.  No doubt she thinks I am a moody witch and she's right to some extent, but I refuse to play the game.  Now if my husband wants me to make an appearance at a particular family event, I will try to accommodate his need for suppport by just being there.  If I absolutely cannot, he can decide to go alone or not at all.  We take care of our needs and each other as best we can.   But truthfully, when they are gone it's "out of sight, out of mind" for us.  Thankfully holidays only come around once a year.

 Best to you Stranded.  You are not alone.  There are many families out there is these same circumstances.  Don't sweat it.  Live your life and maybe they'll find something better to do with their time than blame and stir the pot.

Now it's on to Christmas! (or the next holiday that you celebrate)

CeeMee

[stranded]

Is it possible this is a form of avoidance too? As in avoiding their aggression by placating them?
I'm not saying it is, just wondering if you had ever considered that.

Mudpup,

I've been doing more reading on narcissism, and I think that my problem is co-dependency (extreme need to please, among other things).  Are N's attracted to co-dependent partners?  Makes sense...

[stranded]

One thing that bothers  is that your husband wants you to stand up for him when I agree with others that he should be standing up for you.  What exactly does he want you to do? 

Stay out of it.  Family  usually has a way or reconciling eventually but that same forgivness is not equally  extended to the in-laws, which could leave you on the outs years from now after they've worked through their issues.

Mostly, he has been telling me not to talk to them, to not pick up the phone.  There was one time though that they called several times while I was at work and he was at home, and he felt attacked and then was lashing out at me for not being there to tell them to stop calling him, which makes no sense since he told me to not talk to them!  I got mad, and then said something unsupportive like, what's the big deal anyway, they're still your parents whether you like them or not.  He got really upset then and said how alone he feels, that no one is on his side.  And when I say things like, I can't really talk to them because they're not my parents, they're yours, he gets really upset too.  So if I get involved, talk to them,  and thus I say something that is slightly sympathetic toward them, he gets mad.  If I don't get involved, he gets mad.  Either way, I'm screwed. 

Anyway, not talking to them is easy enough to do.  I was letting my guilt and issues get in the way and not supporting him adequately.  But I also feel like he doesn't seem to mind that I'm their scapegoat.  He thinks 1) we're not going to be able to convince them otherwise due to their narcissism - if it's their son cutting them off, then there must be something wrong with the family, and 2) it's easier on them both psychologically and socially if they hate me than hate him.  Everyone understands if it's an evil wife talking the son away from his family, and then no one is to blame but me.

But you're right - ultimately they are family, and however bad it gets, the family has at least some love left for each other, at the very least they have history and psychological ties.  I'm basically a complete stranger to them.  And of course, being the N's that they are - they don't know a thing about me anyway, almost 5 years later. 

[Hopalong]

Stranded,
This sounds absolutely MISERABLE. And hugely unfair to you.
You've been "trained" to stand in the vaccum between them and let their arrows and sniping in both directions go through you. You accepted the job...but you thought it was right when you started.

I think it's a good sign, though it must be very painful, that you're starting to feel how this is not right.

I would suggest very strongly that this is a SERIOUS threat to your marriage. You know that anyway, right?

Have you considered couples counseling? It may help you both and telling him you want it might really bring home to him that this is not working for you and you both may pay the price.

Some outside, objective help might really...help!

Just a thought...
Hopalong

[CeeMee]

Stranded,

Sounds like you are getting a handle on this as things simmer down. 

Your husband hasn't cut all contact with his parents but he wants you not to answer the phone or speak with them.  I find that curious.  Could it be that he is reacting to you being an empathetic ear to his father.  Maybe he feared you may be going over to the "dark side," and leaving him stranded.  I think that although it may be very difficult, one can strike a balance.  I think it is possible for you to be polite and empathetic towards his family while being loyal to your husband.  If he hasn't cut off all contact, why would he want you to?  Does he lack trust? 

I am still concerned about why he allows them to scapegoat you.  This is not about you.  This is about his role in the family and their dynamics and he should make that clear and tell them to lay off of you.  That would seem the loyal thing to do.  When he turned down the TG invitation, why did he make the issue about you having to work?  Would he have wanted to go if you didn't have to work that day?  This seems like he may be aiding in this scapregoating without realizing it.

It sounds like your husband is confused and unsure about what he wants from you.  Has he considered therapy?  I agree with Hopalog.  This sounds like a serious issue that could affect your marriage.  Maybe it would be good to get a third party professional involved.

Hang in there stranded.  You're not alone.  There are lots of wise people on this board willing and able to give you many insights and share experiences.

CeeMee

[Brigid]

stranded,

I think that my problem is co-dependency (extreme need to please, among other things).  Are N's attracted to co-dependent partners?

Yes, absolutely.  I think many of us are coey's, or we would not have put up with them for as long as we did.  Therapy has helped me a lot with this, but I'm sure there are still some lingering traits floating around.

I, too, see your h's need to make you the scapegoat and his defender as completely unfair and potentially very harmful to your marriage.  Your co-dependency is also allowing this to happen.  I agree that you guys need some couples counselling and individual counseling so you can learn better methods to navigate through these issues.  I can see so many of the same problems in your marriage that I had in my own, so I can say--please get help.  Your h is playing the victim and not wanting to take any responsibility for creating the boundaries necessary with his family.  Perhaps he is clueless as to how to make that happen, but handing it off to you is not the answer.  He must learn that this will only create more conflict and a bigger divide between you and his family.  He also needs to set a better example for your children and see the eventual affects on them if he doesn't get this under control.

Hugs,

Brigid   

[stranded]

Hi everyone,

Well, my SIL finally nailed the last nail in the coffin!  She did her usual crazymaking at work and, long story short, she had a huge part in someone resigning from the company just weeks away from Christmas.  That was it for my husband.  I think she behaved in such a way that we both have no guilt about never having any contact with her and the rest of the Ns.  My husband said, see I told you they are that evil, you didn't believe me.  I didn't.  I guess there is a threshold that you reach, and then one day you have just seen enough and you've taken all that you can take.  So we are in perfect agreement over them, and I finally have some inner peace.  Not too much anger.  Just one big shake of the head, and a silent goodbye and good riddance. 

Did you all feel with your dealings with N's that you have never known that such evil could exist?!  I mean, when I talk to my friends and family about the situation, no one knows anyone who thinks or acts like these people do.  I told my mom that they're worse than bad guys you see in the movies!  It is so unreal, and that is why it is so difficult - no one can believe that people can be so cruel and insane!!

Thanks for all of your help.  I hope I can have enough insight one day to help someone else in a similar situation...

- Not so stranded anymore!

[Plucky]

This is good news Stranded!
FYI, Ns generally do not go quietly.  They are like those old horror movies where the monster just refuses to die.  Be prepared for a Rasputin move.  It sounds like you are ready for them.
Plucky

[miss piggy]

Hello Stranded,

How are you doing?  I agree with Plucky, watch your back while you wait for the other shoe to drop.  But stick to your guns.

Well, my SIL finally nailed the last nail in the coffin!  She did her usual crazymaking at work and, long story short, she had a huge part in someone resigning from the company just weeks away from Christmas.  That was it for my husband.  I think she behaved in such a way that we both have no guilt about never having any contact with her and the rest of the Ns.  My husband said, see I told you they are that evil, you didn't believe me.  I didn't.  I guess there is a threshold that you reach, and then one day you have just seen enough and you've taken all that you can take.  So we are in perfect agreement over them, and I finally have some inner peace.  Not too much anger.  Just one big shake of the head, and a silent goodbye and good riddance. 

Yes, when my SIL adopted her second "doll" after refusing to take responsibility for the first one and expecting everyone else to raise them both for her while she basked in her glory of being so "generous" and "kind hearted", we all pulled back never to return.  I know that her H did NOT want to adopt another child because he was carrying the load for both of them when he wasn't successful foisting it off on the other women of the family.  This woman couldn't even hold, touch, or look at the first one when he needed her.  She is so cold.  But outside the house, totally friendly!!!  We call her sybil for her multiple personalities.  My bottom line is the safety of my kids.  I consider her craziness a huge danger to my kids' welfare and I don't exaggerate. 

But my H was initially concerned that I would fall back under the spell because of guilt or social pressure.  This was a legitimate concern.  This is when I got therapy and support from a counselor.  I was very fragile during this time.  I still have to work on holding boundaries and not having to please everyone.  This is the gift of all this crap.  I've learned to stick up for myself and not feel bad about it. 

Now that you are familiar with evil Nness, you will recognize it more and more in the world around you.  It opened my eyes up to my Ndad's problem.  You may need to do more work on how to hold your boundaries, because believe me, your Ns will keep trying to bring you back in.  Read the thread about the letter from someone's cousin...  They will try to find the right phrase to wiggle under your skin "you don't care, you're selfish, not nice, not forgiving, mistaken, not loving," etc.  They don't care if their words are true, they just want their words to work on you.  Hold tight to your truth.

As for your friends, no one will admit to having a narcissist in their midst because a) they haven't had the big revelatory moment you have had yet, b) they're in denial, c) they are not in denial but think that's the way the world is, d) it just isn't a problem for them, or e) they don't want to admit they cowtow to bullies or f) some mixture of these and more.  OR they might be N themselves.    Don't look for validation of your decision from your friends.  You know you did the right thing for you.  They are not affected by this person so their opinion truly doesn't matter.

Keep up the good work.  MP

[stranded]

FYI, Ns generally do not go quietly.  They are like those old horror movies where the monster just refuses to die.  Be prepared for a Rasputin move. 

Darn!  Just when you thought it was safe!  But I do feel safer than before.  I know that I now feel immune to their mind games and guilt trips, and I think now I can recognize it for what it is.

My husband was expecting them to make a fuss at him this weekend, but not a peep.  Let's hope it stays that way, but I guess I should not be so hopeful.  But at least instead of waiting in dread for the other shoe to drop, I am going about my life, and they are not affecting me emotionally anymore (at least for the moment!  But what peace, while it lasts!).  I wish my husband could say the same.

- Stranded

[stranded]

My bottom line is the safety of my kids.  I consider her craziness a huge danger to my kids' welfare and I don't exaggerate. 

I think now I can see my husband's point of view much more clearly.  He feels the same way about our son - that any contact with the Ns is a form of child endangerment.  I used to think that it was rather extreme of him to think that way, but he is exactly right, as are you. 

I have always had this problem - holding boundaries and not having to please everyone.  As I am going to therapy, I feel like my voice is coming out, and I am stronger and not so afraid to feel what I feel, feeling something and not having to apologize for it, or being afraid of someone's disapproval.  It will take more time, but it's a start.

Their words sure had an effect on me.  I think that the more disconnected you are from your true self for whatever reasons, the more easily you can doubt.  I don't know why Ns are such masters/manipulators of the spoken word.

My husband is struggling because he and his sister sort of work together.  He is surrounded by people everyday who do not/will not believe him that his sister is a liability.  I think that eventually she will have to leave her job when the jig is up, but her lack of work (since she probably spends most of the time trying to get out of work and blaming other people, making them the reason why she is not able to work) is costing him.  If the client is gone because of her, then his work with the client ends as well.  She was crying today, lying about her role in everything, and my husband was about to have a heart attack as he saw her weaseling her way out of a mess again.  The injustice just kills him.  So it IS important that he be validated.  I don't know how to help him.  I told him that 1) life is not fair, 2) there may be no other way out except to wait until her incompetence finally is inescapable.  But I suppose that may be a long time.  I just don't like to see him so upset.  Because then she wins.  But it kind of feels like she is winning either way.  He can't really leave his job - that's not an option at this point.  I've briefly thought of finding ways to drive her crazy, but I don't want to engage in any way, stoop to their level, or get slammed with harrassment charges or something!  We may just have to deal and resign ourselves to waiting it out. 

[miss piggy]

Hello Stranded,

I think now I can see my husband's point of view much more clearly.  He feels the same way about our son - that any contact with the Ns is a form of child endangerment.  I used to think that it was rather extreme of him to think that way, but he is exactly right, as are you.

Yes.  First, there is the emotional abuse from out of the blue headtrips on the kids.  Ns make no distinction or allowances for age.  Anybody breathing is a competitor.  Second, a normal person would think they are leaving their child in the care of an adult with common sense until they learn about Nness.  Instead, the "adult" is really a dressed up six year old who makes things worse than if you left the child unattended.

But it kind of feels like she is winning either way.

Yes again.  But does it matter?  What does she win?  An argument that she created?  etc etc.  Ns are just walking chaotic drama makers.  Something to talk about over drinks.  If no drama, it's so boring.  Actual productive outcomes like serving a client, delivering a work product is irrelevant.  The point is drama.  The only way out is out.  To walk away.  You cannot drive her "crazy" because she already is and she lives for that.  The only way to drive a N crazy is to leave or to ignore. 

Any reaction from your H to his sister is going to stoke her fire.  It's called supply.  If he can focus on where HE wants to go with his work and his family, she will become a mere distraction. 

Hope this helps and good luck again.  MP

[Plucky]

So it IS important that he be validated.  I don't know how to help him.

I'm so glad things are clearer for you both.  I think that if you understand and listen, that is a huge help.  Even if you don't know the answers.  I know that this is a big part of what is so helpful about this board.  Having people who understand and listen, validate, commiserate, and nurture.  Who else in his world can do this as you can?

Plucky

[Sallying Forth]

Is it possible this is a form of avoidance too? As in avoiding their aggression by placating them?
I'm not saying it is, just wondering if you had ever considered that.

Mudpup,

I've been doing more reading on narcissism, and I think that my problem is co-dependency (extreme need to please, among other things).  Are N's attracted to co-dependent partners?  Makes sense...

N's are attracted to what they can use as a supply for their narcissistic need. Their radar picks up on anyone with that supply. So, yes, co-dependency would be an ideal supply.

[Sallying Forth]

I have always had this problem - holding boundaries and not having to please everyone.  As I am going to therapy, I feel like my voice is coming out, and I am stronger and not so afraid to feel what I feel, feeling something and not having to apologize for it, or being afraid of someone's disapproval.  It will take more time, but it's a start.

Their words sure had an effect on me.  I think that the more disconnected you are from your true self for whatever reasons, the more easily you can doubt.  I don't know why Ns are such masters/manipulators of the spoken word.

Hi Stranded,
The more you are connected to your true self, the less hold N's will have on you. Their words will be powerless. You will know the truth. You are definitely on that journey to finding the real you.