What is going on? Insights needed

[stayhuman]

Is my mother an N?


Here's the story:

Mother arrives to bring me some food and give me some money. She does not say hello to me when she arrives. She calls me and tells me I have to come and help her with the food. Oky, I go and help. She just loads the food in without so much as a 'Hello'.

Next, my father and her come into the flat. She unloads the stuff. I already feel tension.

I sit down with my Dad and start making casual talk-my dad is introverted and doesnt talk much. Mother stalks about the flat. I offer her a seat but she refuses.

Next, she makes a comment about my skin-there are no spots. 'I thought there was something missing about you' she says.

She immediately gets hostile with my Dad, telling him that he did not offer her a seat.I tell her I already offered her a seat but she is fixated. 

She says 'oh, but you have to train men'. You have to train them and he still has alot to learn'

Me: 'thats just wrong'. (Why should she have to train someone- :S)

her: ignores me.

My mother is the kind of person that NEVER listens. No matter what I say. She wants to do things for me-like buy things. Its all material.

I remember a moment in my teenage years of telling her I was really upset about the family sitaution at the time(we were going through a rough spot with fathers alchoholism). I told her I had been crying at school that day. She just goes 'huh' in a sarcastic kind of way and continues her chores.

I cannot tell her any of this because I know she will just get upset and accuse me of being horrible. I have tried before.

I always feel like when I try to communicate with my Dad she gets annoyed as though I am ignoring her. I really want to get more comfortable with my Dad as it is difficult. But it just seems impossible with her arround. She always interrupts or diverts onto something like 'are you eating right?' etc.

I feel like to survive around her I cannot say anything wrong about her actions. If I do it will all blow up in my face. But I am getting tired of just ignoring things. It is so frustrating.

I feel bad even writing this because she does so much for me materially-but I am just fed up of it. When I joined this bored I didn't know much about NPD. But now I am wondering if it is the root of alot of my troubles.

Whats going on? I am confused.

[mum]

Stayhuman, I will be blunt. Your mom is a mess. She's mean and self centered. I don't know if she's an N, but so far, she fits the bill. Does she/can she feel empathy for another?
She certainly sounds controlling and angry and unjustifiable dumps her garbage on you and your dad. She also seems jealous of your relationship with him. She is a train wreck.
I have found it hard to admit that just because we have a bio connection with people, they are not always people we would choose to be around otherwise.  We would rethink any relationship that is so one sided with such a bitter person.
It's her. It's not you.
Do you have someone you can sort this out with? I have found therapy helpful from time to time in my life, maybe you'd look into that?
Please don't feel bad... you sound like a normal adult with normal feelings.  (((((((((stayhuman)))))))))
hang in there.. Sending you clarity......

[stayhuman]

Hi MuM,

Thanks for your reply.

As far as empathy goes-my mother always seems to be able to feel sympathy for others. But its almost in a kind of way like she does it to give something of herself because she has been through such 'hard times' as she always reminds us.

Its like she feels sorry for the underdog almost because it relates to her own experiences. I know she has had it really badly in the past and has done what she thought she could for her children. However, it is just that emotional aspect that is missing.It is just that part missing to do with LISTENING and Understanding ME that just doesn't seem there. She just doesn't seem to have that. I always feel like when I am talking there is no point because she will just change the subject or talk over me. I feel like I cannot have a true 'voice' around her.

It is difficult to say these things. I mean it makes me feel extremely uncomfortable. Like I am betraying her. I have no-one else I would be comfortable talking to about it and I cannot afford a therapist at all. Not a proper one.

[Hopalong]

Stay,
She sure sounds N-ish. But the plain old adjectives help just as much. It's like: see the person. Describe the behavior: hostile, witholding, silent treatment, competitive, controlling, sarcastic, belittling...

'Nuf?

We are so poisoned by fear of being angry at anyone who's done anything for us, especially when we know they've suffered themselves. She's getting something out of her "giving" too. You don't have to hate her of course--likely she's damaged for a bunch of bad childhood reasons. But you definitely can't take on fixing her, either. It's not a child's JOB to fix a damaged parent...not even an adult child's. There is so much to read about Ns and similar things.

I think the N label calls forth near-hatred (and often guilt) because an extreme N does hurt people very very very badly, and when the light first dawns, a LOT of anger can surface. But after work and learning about it, one can come around to compassion for their brokenness. You are not betraying her at all by recognizing your own hurt and anger. That's all you're doing. Admitting that you have feelings.

It is not betraying anyone to admit to yourself or in other safe places that you feel anger or resentment. It is betraying yourself to forbid those natural feelings in response to those behaviors. They hurt.

I'd also advise getting your father off to yourself.

My NMom was terribly competitive and controlling and didn't allow me a free relationship with my Dad. Wasn't until my first T said, ask your DAD to lunch. Tell them both you want to have SEPARATE lunches with them. (I'd had about a thousand tedious lunches w/here, and she always, always spoke for the two of them: We think this, we think that...). I was staggered. I thought they were one creature with four legs.

I had no idea I was allowed to assert my right to have a separate relationship with my Dad. It really helped.

Hope you get more and more insight about her, and the growth will mean more into yourself too. Hard work but ultimately very healing.

Hopalong

[mum]

We will listen here, Stayhuman. I'm sorry your mom is so difficult.  I think one thing about N's is that their take on life is so very self centered it's rendered them unavailable to others.  I am sorry your mom can't hear you. I wonder sometimes if certain people just aren't "wired" for mothering, (but they do have the anatomy for it.) I know so many people whose moms just arent' the one I would ever want to be... Even my own mom could be distant at times...but even as a child I knew it was a tough veneer born of a tough childhood. Luckily, she found my dad, who was all love and light...and he helped her relax and find her center for the most part.
  Something that has helped me in life is thinking that there is purpose to everything. Like having the parents we have. We can learn from them, even if it isn't a particularly nice or warm lesson...it's something.  You obviously have learned to be compassionate and caring, despite, or maybe because of...the way your mom is. So that's something, right?
     We all put sooo much stock in our biological connections...and sometimes they are just ragged and painful, but we attach so much to them, emotionally. Can you detach enough (step outside for a moment) and look at this without that attachment? Is this really YOUR pain...or pain someone else (your mom) is giving you....expecting you to take on? What if you didn't take it? What if she got to keep it....and you got to stay happy and have a nice visit with your dad?  Maybe a visit without her?
    It has helped me to envision what I WANT....as opposed to the obsessive focus on what I DON'T WANT.  I believe this is how we manifest our dreams....if we can FEEL what it's like to have what we want...it has a chance of happening. If all we feel is what we don't want, well, we get more of the same, as we know how to feel nothing else.
So, what do you want?  Not for someone else...for you?  Now, wanting a different person for a mother isn't what I mean....I mean what do you want life to feel like?
   Get a handle on that and other things.... like choices....will follow that will be in keeping with your intentions for your life.
OK....somebody stop me.  I have no idea why I went into that....Do you?
Does this make sense for you?

I guess it's about taking care of your life....and getting out of your mom's "bab juju"!!

[CeeMee]

Hi Stayhuman,

Just some thoughts that came to me while reading your short story.

It sounds like you are a person of the nonconfrontational sort.  It makes you uncomfortable bringing issues forward and this could be partially due to your wiring and partially due to experiences from your childhood when bringing up issues only brought you more grief (like feeling ignored for wanting to address your father's alcoholism).  

Your mom seems to be too wrapped up in her own head dealing with her own issues to know how to respond to your concerns.  I agree with Mum and Hopalong in that your mom sounds like she's "a mess" and I would say for sure that some women are not at all wired to be "good" mothers.  By that I mean the kind that goes beyond providing the necessities of life and nurtures the emotional and spiritual development of the child as well.  I have an aunt who is TOTALLY incapable of doing that.  She is a mess too and doesn't even know it.  

So where does this leave you?  Well your priority is taking care of yourself which is what the others have said as well.  One thing that you will have to establish is boundaries and consequences.  When your mom behaves in a way that is hurtful, own the hurt and challenge the behavior.  What I mean by that is let mom know what bothers you and how it makes you feel.  Be specific.  Explain so she understands and most important, let her know how you would like to be treated or what you want.  Next own your own feelings.  If you are feeling hurt, she didn't make you feel that, you allowed yourself to feel that (and there is nothing wrong with allowing one's self to feel) but by the same token, we can change or modify those emotions because we are ultimately in control of them.  Working through those emotions by ourselves or with the help of a therapist or friend is always effective in helping me change/controlling my feelings.  Last, have consequences follow when your mom either doesn't listen or doesn't change her hurtful behavior.  Here is a list of things that I used when I was working through problems like this with my family.

Distance myself from the person
Make myself unavailable when my help is wanted
Refuse any material compensation that I perceive is being used to buy my forgiveness (material stuff never makes up for hurts)
Write the person to let them know how I am feeling (not in an attacking way) and let them know that I am terminating the relationship until such time when they are ready to relate with me on these new terms.  When I leave my heart in a letter and don't get an acceptable response, I am very willing and able to cut that person out of my life forever.  

These are just some ideas.  I don't know what your situation is and what your relationship with your mom is but I do know that some times it takes a little sacrifice for some to come to the bargaining table.

Hope this helps.

CeeMee

[Sallying Forth]

Hi StayHuman,
Sounds like at the very least she is an abuser with high N-traits or the real deal a N or both.

Really odd behavior. Not healthy.

I remember a moment in my teenage years of telling her I was really upset about the family sitaution at the time(we were going through a rough spot with fathers alchoholism). I told her I had been crying at school that day. She just goes 'huh' in a sarcastic kind of way and continues her chores.

Classic response by my Nmother. No empathy. Not a clue how to show support or love or any normal, healthy human response.

Sorry you are in this precarious position. Defining your boundaries would be a good start.

[write]

Hi S/H

maybe she's one of those martyr types...she certainly sounds like she wants to give/suffer, then make sure you all know it!
Whilst not seeing anyone else's pain...

Maybe after years of 'managing' your father she now thinks automatically people ought to communicate with him via her?

Next, she makes a comment about my skin-there are no spots. 'I thought there was something missing about you' she says.
not a compliment but a put-down?

Got to go, kiddie calling! but thinking of you ((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((())))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))

[miss piggy]

Hi Stayhuman,

Your mom sounds codependent in the original sense of the word.  She needs for your dad to be "the problem" so she can be "the answer".  She is "working" so hard providing for you, cleaning up after him, that you can't possibly have real adult problems.  She probably casts herself as selfless martyr who is never appreciated.  She will not allow you a loving relationship with "the problem" because that would leave her out.  

It must be confusing to see someone give cups of water from their well to outsiders and when you come up with your cup, the well is dry.  So when you take your cup to Dad to fill, she dashes it out of your hand.  Why?  Because she didn't get any love from her parents, so why should you have it better than her?  From what you have written, it sounds like your mother could be a covert narcissist, that is, she is emotionally unavailable.

I sound a bit harsh or clinical, but my Ndad is much this way.  It is so confusing and guilt-inducing to think that the person who provided for me was not an unavailable supportive father.  He will tell you how supportive he has been, in material terms.  As if that was all that mattered.  He was very hands off in the parenting department.  If we cried, it was negative feedback on his parenting, and that just wasn't allowed.  He didn't really start to enjoy our company until we were adults and off his payroll.  Even then, he did all the talking.......

Your family sounds like a classically alcoholic system.  You might want to drop in on some Al-Anon or other such support group.  They are free or have very low dues.  It could be helpful to listen for a bit.  And look around for the right group.  My H has had to look for a few groups before he found one he felt comfortable with.  As you gain insight, you will need more support. You will be grieving the relationships and love you never got within your family.  I hope things can heal between you and your dad, it sounds like there might be some hope there.  But your mother, believe it or not, is invested in keeping things the way they are.  

Also visit www.controllingparents.com and www.innerbonding.com for some great articles for more insight.

Good luck to you.  Keep posting as you think these things through and let us know how you are doing.  Hugs, MP

[j_stice]

Hi stayhuman,

Whilst I agree with the consensus here about certain N types, remember she may be from an era where certain attributes were more acceptible and has internalised some criticisms from her parents. So I think maybe there is more stuff there than you may think, this doesn't necessary explain things or suggest that you go on a endless chase through countless generations to find the source of the problems but it means that you need to be better aware of it. The martyr personality type traditionally uses their actions and sacrifices to determine who they are and what they mean to others.

Maybe there is a little more than meets the eye and maybe there isn't but it also sounds like part of the relationship with your father has been the support and fulfilling the needs of you and / or any siblings you may have, perceived or otherwise this is dangerous because it may lead to further difficulties in their marriage (that sounds like they are present). All I can suggest is to try to set boundaries around you with both of your parents about the type of things that you will accept and except from them as well as on the terms of the help. It may seem like a long road but it a worthwhile path to consider. Don't get stuck in your parents marital issues it leads to one path.. TROUBLE.

Good luck

[stayhuman]

Hey all Thanks for all your replies. I am not well today so sorry if the following reply is somewhat fuzzy/hazy.

j_stice: I think you have pointed out something very important that I might have been overlooking. She is from a strict religious background with a very strong work ethic.  There is alot of emotional repression going on there I sense-and I think that has definitely had an effect on me.

Miss Piggy: I didn't think you sounded harsh or clinical with your description.In fact, just the opposite. I feel that you have described things really well. It just feels good to have someone understand. what you say strikes me somewhere inside:-that way when you read something and you realise that it is true although you might not have wanted to admit it before.
This feels very therapeutic in a way. I looked at the websites too and they have been very helpful. The controlling parents site mentions some attributes that I think can be applied to my family life:  'emotional intolarance', 'social dysfunction', and 'stifled speech'.

Write: Yes, the tone of what she said was definitely not said in a 'oh, you look lovely' kind of way. It felt more like a 'Oh, you are usually a mess' kind of comment. I may be overly sensitive though because that is something I have a problem with I think.

Sallying forth: It is difficult to know what is meant by boundaries. However, taking into consideration what other people have said I think I may need to give this more thought.

Ceemee: Yeah, I definitely do not like confrontation. In fact, I hate attention been drawn on me in general. I realised last night that whenever I start having lots of friends or start being recognised as existing by people I feel uncomfortable and something inside me wants to retreat away from it because it feels like something really bad will happen if people are noticing me.  However, if I am being ignored I feel self-hatred and unhappines. 
I dont know what that is all about. Thanks for helping me perhaps link my relationship with what is going on there. It is confusing.

Kaz: I am still not sure whether the N title can be applied. I definitely agree that she has some of the traits though.

It is those traits which cause so much frustration and could also be down to cultural background. I do not want to make excuses but I do feel it is important to understand her side of the situation as well-I guess that helps me feel less bitter and more compassionate. I would hate to think that my mum or dad would read any of this. I would feel very guilty.

Mum: Thanks again. The whole concept of mother is a tricky one. It seems like everybody here and most others expect a level of nurturing beyond the physical and beyond the material. I too expect this and this is where the problem lies.  I dont really know if that is something she necessarily considers to be a factor of mothering. In fact I am sure it is not and at this rate I dont really think anything is going to change her perceptions on that one. So I guess I will have to change mine then.
I like the flow of thought you had there. It does make sense. Is it really my pain? I am just going to have a flow of thought with this:-where does my pain come from-my own experiences as a child outside of the family, but of course alot of it comes from within the family. It must be an element of all things I think: biology, family, culture. I dont know if I can find out if the pain has been given to me by her. Passed down. If it has then that means I can start to find out who I really am and what I want. Oh yeah, I see where this is going!. So what you were saying about trying to find what I want is really liberating. yeah...
I think I have just developed what you said there but it's helped me gain an insight anyway so thanks!

Hopalong: the thought of trying to spend 'quality' time with my Dad just seems unthinkable. I dont think he would even want to anyway. He doesnt really like company too much I think.  I think sometimesmy mother feels like she is being ignored because I am always trying to talk to my Dad-because I never really get the chance. So it is like the more she tries to intervene or draw the attention back on her  the more frustarting it gets because I have not gotten anywhere and have not been given the chance so the pattern continues. MUM (the board mum, not my mum) also mentioned that perhaps she is jealous of my relationship with my Dad. I definitely agree with this. Just the way she acts whenever I try to talk to him. Like somehow she is being left out.I make just as much effort to talk to her but she just isnt interested in that. I dont understand it-what mother in their right mind would not want their daughter to try and have a good, communicative relatonship with their dad.? That hurts me deeply.

Thanks all for this. It is very therapeutic. Sorry if my post is looong.

[j_stice]

Hey stayhuman,

Don't give up on either of your parents, both may be willing to change if you give them the chance, sometimes showing how a relationship (even parental) can improve may motivate the person to change.

Don't feel like your father too may not appreciate the time you will spend or have spent with him, because he may be use to the emotional difficulties with your mother and feel that they are better left alone. Hence why he is withdrawn, this inturn may lead your mother to try and communicate with you (her child) and hope that the channels of communication will open because of the common interest of you. (This scenario sort of reminds me of someone I used to know).

I do stand by what I said about setting the boundaries and allowing them to feel free to individually have a relationship with you as well as the traditional collective parental relationship. Its not easy and the being religious or ethnic has nothing to do with the situation, it is more about the personalities of the people involved granted being part of an ethnic group may emphasize certain point of it!

[Sallying Forth]

Hey all Thanks for all your replies. I am not well today so sorry if the following reply is somewhat fuzzy/hazy.

Sallying forth: It is difficult to know what is meant by boundaries. However, taking into consideration what other people have said I think I may need to give this more thought.

Thanks all for this. It is very therapeutic. Sorry if my post is looong.

Hi Stayhuman,
Boundaries are about deciding what is acceptable behavior from others and defining our physical, emotional, mental and spiritual space and identity. Making boundaries comes with healing. The more we heal the stronger and healthier our boundaries become. The purpose of having boundaries is to protect and take care of ourselves. We need to be able to tell other people when they are acting in ways which are unacceptable to us.

The first step is starting to know we have the right to protect and defend ourselves. And it is our duty to take responsibility for how we allow others to treat us.

It is impossible to have a healthy relationship with someone who has no boundaries, with someone who cannot communicate directly, and honestly. Learning how to set boundaries is a necessary step in learning to be a friend to ourselves. It is our responsibility to protect ourselves. My h told me 17 years ago that he hated that word, boundaries. Now I understand why. He doesn't have any and doesn't want me to have any either. And we do not have a healthy relationship.

The purpose of a boundary is to make clear separations between different territory.

Also it is very important to set consequences that we are willing to enforce if someone violates our boundaries. Do not set consequences that you are unwilling to enforce. To set boundaries and not enforce them just gives the other person an excuse to continue in the same behavior.

Believe me, I know all about this. I began setting boundaries and then confronting my h when he violated those boundaries. Some of them were:

If you verbally abuse me, I will confront you about your behavior and share my feelings. This became the catalyst for me to leave my h. It began with confronting his behavior.

If you continue that behavior, I will ask you to leave.

If you keep repeating this behavior, I will consider all my options, including leaving this relationship. And that is happening right now with my h. And that happened with my family of origin.

If you break your plans with me by not showing up or by not calling me or by calling me at the last minute to tell me that you had something else come up, I will confront your behavior and share my feelings. I did this with two different friendships. Both eventually were severed due the people continuing to behave like this.

If you repeat that behavior, I will consider it to mean that you do not value or deserve my friendship. I broke off my relationship with this friend because of this repeated behavior of not showing up for our time together.

There are several excellent books on the topic of learning to define boundaries:
The Dance of Wounded Souls
Boundaries
Safe People
Boundaries in Marriage
Boundaries and Relationships
Boundaries, Where You End and I Begin

Here is a web site:
http://www.healthyboundaries.com/

http://www.drdinaevan.com/boundaries.com
This web site  has a very clear chart about the difference between having good and bad boundaries.

Some examples listed:
Without good boundaries: Feel afraid, anticipate crisis, always expect worst to happen.
With good boundaries: Feel secure, grounded and able to cope.

W/O Good: Difficulty saying "no"
W Good: Able to set limits. Can say "no"

W/O Good: Unable to get angry but often feel victimized
W Good: Can express healthy anger and refuse to be victimized


BTW StayHuman no post is ever too long. Pour your heart out and write to us.


Well there is an exception to that. The board has a topic length of 20,000 characters. I did exceed that once when posting "A Time for Letting Go." I wanted to write a book and the board objected.

[write]

Yes, the tone of what she said was definitely not said in a 'oh, you look lovely' kind of way. It felt more like a 'Oh, you are usually a mess' kind of comment. I may be overly sensitive though because that is something I have a problem with I think.

no, that was a pretty lousy comment, not 'you look great today'...I would have been irritated or hurt too.

I don't know how much success you would have at challenging your mother at this stage though, as someone else said she just may be of that generation and background where all this stuff is seen as normal...

Where I grew up ( in England ) the older ladies often delighted in 'taking you down a peg or two' as they saw it, and as that behaviour became more and more unacceptable, and people challenged it, thought the younger generation were ill-mannered!

If you can accept her kindnesses and not let her slights bother you then you needn't do anything except limit your time with her, make sure you have other people to bolster your self-esteem ( like us ) and maybe find a way to communicate with Dad privately every now and then.
If she is upsetting you and undermining your life, and seeking control of your life, then you need more distance and maybe help to rebuild?

((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((())))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))