philosophy and personal space

[Hopalong]

Just started this because I realized I was hijacking Bew's thread about freezing. See? That's why I wonder if my friend is actually onto me being a boundary basher. But he does have some issue with his personal space.... truth is somewhere in between, or both.

BTW, his childhood religious influence was Hindu, not Buddhist. He does talk about attachment as a problem...that's an amalgam of being a psychologist, being a recovering bully raised with the concept of karma, being a good person with traces of "bullliness" left, lots of stuff. He has been a loyal friend. I just have a little trouble with the bearing down so hard on me to let go of everything that makes me feel safe. I know what he's getting at...that letting go of my fixed need for security will free me, and ultimately lead to MORE security because my fears will get out of the way of good things happening. He does see me clearly in that way, understanding how my anxieties sabotage me. At the same time, I do think he may be projecting a lot of his own issues onto me in a way that's sometimes illuminating and sometimes not helpful. On balance I'm grateful for the friendship but when I'm vulnerable I wish he would just be a little nurturing instead of always pushing me harder. He's dear but exhuasting.

Big picture, big picture. I know! I'll be homeless but have free therapy for life from a crazed lapsed Hindu!

 
Hopalong

[Portia]

I sort of feel loved after we talk, but also kind of beaten up. He did tell me that he was a bully as a kid and he's trying to help me because that's his way of fixing his "karma." I don't want to have contempt for his view simply because it's strange to me...but it does leave me confused. He's very insistent about his personal space and is always asking me to scoot back a bit and not sit close, etc. Sometimes that hurts my feelings but I also think it may be that he's onto something in my nature.

I'm not sure it's something I have to fix, though.
I’ve pinched this from the other thread. Hope that’s okay.

Trust your instincts!

Hopalong, talking on another person’s thread is not bashing any great boundary imo. It’s etiquette to maybe say so and apologise/move on like you’ve done. Great. But it’s no big deal. We all learn from each other’s stories.

My home is my safety and it’s a pretty basic need we all have. It’s a most basic need. We need warmth, food, a safe base before we need all that love and achievement jazz. I wouldn’t give up my home, my cave, my refuge, my front door to the world (which let’s face it is not always beneficent).

I’m worried that your friend is using you. Psychologists go into the profession for one of two reasons: (1) to genuinely help others (and that means relating to them at the expense of what the psych wants or needs) or (2) because they want to resolve their own issues, using their patients.

Which camp does he fall in to? I wonder!

Which of your primary care-givers does he remind you of if any? (Feeling loved and beaten up.)

[Hopalong]

I’m worried that your friend is using you. Psychologists go into the profession for one of two reasons: (1) to genuinely help others (and that means relating to them at the expense of what the psych wants or needs) or (2) because they want to resolve their own issues, using their patients.

Thanks, Portia--I'm a little concerned about it too. What you say here...do you think it can be both? Or is it always either-or? I mean, he has upfront said it's helped him deal with his own issues to work with me on mine...and because he owns that, I'm not sure how to object. I mean, don't we all fall in between selflessness and selfishness? I want to honor and acknowledge his struggles to do good because I believe that's genuine.

I think I'm just concerned about how intense he is and how hard that is to cope with when I'm vulnerable.

It's hard to defend your boundaries then.

Thanks a lot for defending my"attachment" to home!

Hopalong

[Portia]

Hey

'nother batch of questions for you Hopalong:

I'm grateful for the friendship

What is he grateful to you for? Does he tell you what he enjoys in you? Or is his mission to reform and mould you to his idea of what a person should be like?

Does he feel superior to you, do you think/feel?

Is it okay to feel grateful in a relationship? Or does that suggest some power thing is happening maybe?

I don't want my few friends to be grateful to me for being their friend. I love to know that they appreciate me for who I am, but not for being their friend as such, if you see what I mean. Sorry I'm not being too clear - it feels like a fine distinction I'm making.

I just get the feeling you're worth so much more. Worth lots of closeness and cuddles and love. Why not? Nothing wrong with that. We're all built differently. Different personalities, likes/dislikes. And it's not all nurture! I believe that. Otherwise it would be a disorder to dislike marzipan and I'd have to be treated for it .

[Portia]

okay I was lazy and decide to post even though you had posted again....

he has upfront said it's helped him deal with his own issues to work with me on mine...and because he owns that, I'm not sure how to object.

The last part - not sure how to object - tells a tale maybe! You want to object?? And feel you can't?

This is quite clever if it is intended by him. So - he tells you that you're helping him by allowing him to mould you to what he thinks is good? So for you to object, disagree, have your Own Voice in this matter would seem churlish, not appreciative of his wonderful gift to you and even worse - you'd be interfering in his healing?????? Bit of a double-bind there perhaps.

Okay I'll be blunt for a change hahaha  this seems to me like manipulative BS of the highest order. Crazy-making stuff. He could have you - within a few months - not trusting yourself to have your own thoughts, let alone your own voice. How has your voice been doing during these interactions with him?

I mean, don't we all fall in between selflessness and selfishness? I want to honor and acknowledge his struggles to do good because I believe that's genuine.

What about you? What about your real needs and wants for closeness, for relating? They are valid.

Your true friends will help you trust yourself, your wants, your feelings. They will love you without trying to impose on you.

Am I imposing my views on you? Or simply asking questions so that you can Think For Yourself?

Does he want you thinking for yourself....?

gotta go. Take care (((H)))

[write]

I always have a problem with gurus, it seems to me they trash the boundaries of 'helping', pressing their own enlightened views upon others.
If he makes you feel uncomfortable/ exhausted put some distance between you for a while and see how that feels.

[Portia]

back again. I just made a cuppa and was pondering...is this what is happening? -

He says: "You're wrong, I know what's right for you. I'll tell you what is right and help you. In doing that it also helps me."

Very persuasive, quite attractive.... I can feel myself submitting, falling, for someone who knows better than me, who will look after me.

And even better, it hooks in my need to help, because I need to help others (I've been conditioned from an early age to take responsibility for other people). This is where I get my need met. I feel wanted, useful, needed by someone. Mmmmm.

I recognise danger signs like this when it happens to me, because it has happened to me. Anyone who starts out from the premise "you're wrong" is a user and abuser.

I still like to help, but not at my expense. I like to help and learn too. But I get to decide what I learn, when and how. 

Is this totally my experience or is there some similarity Hopalong? I really don't know! It's too powerful stuff. Like I say, very attractive, like the Candy Man.   

[Gail]

This thread pushed some buttons for me, because X BF claimed to be a Buddhist and to be more enlightened than the average person.  If something bothered me, instead of offering support, he'd ask, "Think about why you have this attachment."  The idea was that my feelings wouldn't be so negative if I only was as enlightened as he was and as unattached.  If this sounds like your "friend", I'd say he is going to be a crazy maker.

One thing that's really helped me decide if a relationship is healthy or not is this:  If I'm spending a lot of time analyzing it, something is wrong.  You know how that goes: "Why did h/she say that?  What did I do wrong?  Are my perceptions off?  Is s/he right and I'm too sensitive, "  etc. etc.    I've realized that the long term friendships I've had, the ones I've gotten the most satisfaction out of it, have not required all that analysis.  We just enjoy each other and are supportive of each other's feelings.  We encourage each other, instead of trying to make the other person feel a tad inferior. 

Any person who is trying to get you to distrust your own perceptions is trying to control your thoughts and feelings.  Just what we who have had relationships with N's should be on guard against.

Gail

[j_stice]

Hi Hopalong

Firstly, I came across a really great link about boundaries, unfortunately I forget exactly where is it was from http://joy2meu.com/Personal_Boundaries.htm .

Secondly, it sounds like he is helping you through your problems primarily as an escape from his own problems and feels that although he may have low self-esteem the valuation / validation of his personal value is attributed by other. So be careful whatever your outcome.

Thirdly, remember to keep whatever advice is given in context and if you apply it please remember that it won't be exactly suitable to your situation (so explaining how it isn't may be difficult), if he nags you about things maybe try telling him how your having difficulties in implementing it.

Yeah I sort of understand my advice here is nothing that you already don't know and you may have seen the link, but I don't think I can really add much more than another voice saying remember it's your life and your choice so don't be fooled.

[miss piggy]

Hello all,

Just want to chime in here.  Not that Oscar Wilde is the acme of enlightenment, but he did have one real gem IMO and it's this:

The most selfish a person can do is tell another person how to live.

I don't care if it's our Ns or a guru, a priest, a doctor, a therapist, or our hairdresser.  Nobody can help you discover your own journey and learn your own lessons.  I think the best thing this dude could do for his karma is to allow you to make your own mistakes and to learn from them. I'm so glad he has his own answers for himself but.... Back off buddy!  You're breathing my air for me!

Sorry, this one pushed my button too!  There's my two cents.  Miss Piggy! 

[Hopalong]

I just went off to the coffee shop all day to fend off NMom and get the $%^&* assignment done, and came home to all this support, wisdom, thumps on the head and thank you, I needed them!

Portia, wow. Gratefulness. Yup, I'm too grateful. And he does air superiority. I don't think it's intentional. Dang. I hate discarding or distancing, because I neeeeeeeed friends. Especially in my isolating and insecure job, where he's the only one I've gotten close to. But hmmm.

Another thing you said earlier...right, which parent. NMom. (Say no mo'!) He once mentioned his own Nness but you're right that doesn't remove it. Damn. I do think he has good intentions mixed in with the bossy stuff.)

And the thing about feeling I "can't object" which of course does suggest there's something invasive going on to object to. VERY savvy skillful reading and I thank you for this. Really. That kind of incisive observation is just beyond valuable. Can I be grateful again?    Brings me back to a sort of quandary I was going to mention...I do find that in my spiritual fumblings an  "attitude of gratitude" brings me the most peace. So...I guess it's tricky in this friendship, but do you see why I say that? I AM grateful for someone who has spent so much time with me, and I really am lonely. So...I'm grateful. Not for the uncomfortable feelings, but for the way he really did break my isolation there.

But, but, but. I can't ignore the accumlated voices I hear here. I know you all are helping me wake up to the need for firmer boundaries in this relationship. I think he's actually most interested in me when I am the most vulnerable. I HATE to infer evil intent and I really don't believe his is. I just think out of his unawareness he really is running an emotional number on me. Then he goes home whistling, happily self-contained, and I go home feeling scraped open and left alone with it.

Whew. I guess that's an answer right there. I do need more distance.
But guess what? Now that my job description is changing HE is the one who'll be doing my old duties (for added money...I'm not getting a nickel more because I'm just "staff")---so I will be working witih him more than ever. Well, it'll be good practice. I think I may have to go "colleague" on him and back on from being pals. It's really, truly not reciprocal in a way that I need.

(He's trying to replicate with me a relationship he has had with his aunt, whom he considers his spiritual advisor. Part of this really IS cultural, I believe. Because he's talked about when she would give him an "assignment" for his growth, even if it was something he loathed doing (like having to stay alone in his apartment for 3 days on a retreat, following her instructions precisely) he has willingly done it, because the master-student thing is something he accepts as a positive. It's part of his culture, to approach personal growth that way. So part of his pushiness is N-ness, but I think part is just from growing up in Bombay. He didn't come to the US until age 18, so I'm sure a lot of subtle things and assumptions were trained into him that I don't have a glimmer of.

But he AIN'T my guru. Next time he starts in I think I'll tell him that, emphatically. I want a gentle and supportive friend and I am no longer volunteering to receive "help" that comes from a one-up position.

THANK YOU ALL! (And say anything more you like...I have a feeling this may take some work to detangle.)

Hugs back,
Hopalong

[Hopalong]

PS--sorry for not thanking all of you individually, I keep losing track but I did hear ALL of your voices. Thank you J_stice, MP, Ex-Bewildered, Gail, and Write. It's all stirring.

Dang. Forgot one thing. My friend (KP) really DID help me when we first. Uh oh, I'm scared you'll tell me it was sick. But...when I started there a year ago, I was desperately struggling my way out of my grief over rejection from my last romantic N. KP pushed and shoved and INSISTED that I see the Ns behavior for what it was. He made me stop making excuses for the N and one day said, THS is what he did, and how, and he is a cold bastard. I do believe that KP was seriously, genuinely fighting to help me push through it. And suddenly I did! I got over that N faster than I ever have, ever, before, even though I'd been with him a year.

So (sorry Portia) I'm right back to gratitude. I really WAS. I felt rescued, maybe roughly, but really as though he'd yanked me to the surface when I was drowning. So in fairness to him, I have to say there's something.........well meant.............that's genuine in there. Maybe the cultural clash plus his own Nspots make it bully-ish at times. But I can't write him off completely. Just have to find some new membrane to put around my vulnerabilities and maybe not turn to him at those times. It's hard, because I don't have many other people who are that interested.

Hope I'm not running aground, but just had to tell that part.

Thanks for listening (and whoever said over-analysed friendships are a sign something needs correcting, I agree!)

Hopalong

[write]

I think it's fine you feel gratitude- he helped you out of a bad place.
But it's equally fine that you don't need him to be that person any more, and experience his pressure as no longer constructive.
If he's as great as he seems, he'll accept that and be able to back off and let you construct your own choices within your friendship.

I've found in relationships- we all play roles, but if the relationship is to continue as people grow and change, both parties need to accept the roles change too.
This can take a bit of adjustment for both parties, so be patient and aware you may have to reinforce a few times before the new boundaries are comfortable.

You will always be grateful to him for helping you see things clearly at a vulnerable point in your life.
And you'll be friends forever if he can see you now need more space and the guru bit is something you no longer need.

[Portia]

Hiya H, just a couple of thoughts…

because the master-student thing is something he accepts as a positive. It's part of his culture, to approach personal growth that way.

Umm personal growth or ultimate nirvana? Yes Buddha is the ultimate master but I’m not sure ordinary fellow humans (his aunt) have the right to be master and decide your spiritual course for you. The path to end the suffering of birth, life and continual reincarnation is (as far as I can tell) for the soul/spirit to end completely. Is that an attitude to personal growth or is it a religion?? (I think it’s a religion which is not about personal growth in as much as it doesn’t address the individual but imposes an external ideology on the individual.)

I think personal growth is by its nature personal to each of us and while the ways to growth are similar, we each do it in our own way.

What is personal growth anyway? I think it’s growing up. Realising the truth of what happened to us in childhood, how those experiences have shaped us, and re-parenting ourselves so that we can grieve our childhood wounds. Then the need to keep acting out, to keep repeating the old patterns, dies. (Maybe it is similar to Buddhism in that sense, except we are talking about this life.)

Personal growth is not about subscribing to any particular religion, ideology, self-help course, set of rules etc etc. It’s very simple – setting the truth about your childhood free and having the courage to examine it closely, no matter how much it hurts.
 
I feel like I’m lecturing but I guess you’re free to consider or dismiss as you wish! Good that’s okay then. Just my thoughts.

Now that my job description is changing HE is the one who'll be doing my old duties (for added money...I'm not getting a nickel more because I'm just "staff")---so I will be working witih him more than ever.

This sounds like a good way for you to do all the work while he gets paid (more) for not doing it. May not be his choice or doing, but it still sounds a possible area for him to take advantage. What is your mutual boss thinking of?? Do you have to be working with him more? If he takes over your duties, okay there’s a handover but then he has to get on with it; especially if he’s paid more. Darn. There’s no way you should be involved after an initial handover. But I don’t know what you do so there may be technical/practical considerations. Nevertheless, you’ll have your new duties so I guess you won’t have much time to spend helping him…..get paid more than you!!!   Oh this makes me mad. It happens so often and it’s so unfair.

Just have to find some new membrane to put around my vulnerabilities and maybe not turn to him at those times. It's hard, because I don't have many other people who are that interested.

I would tend not to turn to people at work simply because they are at work and in competition with you. People can be quite skilled at using personal stuff against you for their own ends.

You have lots of people here who are interested though.

PS. I just read ‘job support’ and wanted to ask – your job spec has changed because you have the different position now? If so, this is more power to the argument that you need to concentrate on your new responsibilities. And your environment – yep, a breeding ground for certain types I’d bet!

[Hopalong]

He's not Buddhist, nor a religious Hindu, but they enjoyed the holidays and some rituals of Hindusim. I think he sees his aunt as his spiritual teacher by choice, has entered into that dialogue w/her willingly. As I did in the beginning with him so as you say, Write, it's up to me to tell him what I am willing to share now. New boundary time.

The job stuff is just disheartening and insecure. I don't have the energy to battle the injustice that happens, but am at least going go try to persuade them to improve my lot. Will take energy and I feel very burned out.

Will check in with you guys when I get a moment.
Happy Monday (oxymoron, ugggh)...
Hopalong