Socially Correct/Learning the Unspoken Rules

[mudpuppy]

Hi CeeMee and Portia,

Maybe I'm dating myself with the Prince Albert in a can thing. It was an idiotic phone prank people used to play on tobacco shop owners. Prince Albert was a brand of tobacco. If the shop owner said yes then the dope calling him up, told him to let him out of the can. It was a mindless, harmless prank but I imagine fairly annoying after awhile. I used it as an example of intentional aggravating behavior as opposed to mere social naivete.

Portia, you said you didn't conform unintentionally and then in the same sentence said you didn't want to conform. I can't reconcile those two statements.
In any event I said there are some people who don't conform merely to shock. There are others who can't conform. And there is yet a third group who choose not to conform, not to shock or because they are unable, but merely because they enjoy their non conformity. Surely there is nothing in any of those statements to offend anyone.
Now no offense, but if you wished to be harmed and abused to escape the contents of your own head then you were not in a healthy place. Perhaps 'truly disturbed' was a poor choice of words. How about 'relatively unhealthy' instead. My point was most people do not wish to be harmed.

CeeMee,
What I meant by 'respect' was not harming or abusing someone else.
I only brought up 'Ns and weirdos' to point out that the social cues you originally wrote about don't work with them and that in my opinion the Platinum Rule left us more vulnerable to their manipulations than the Golden Rule.
'Weirdo' by the way was also a very imprecise term I used. I meant by it, other people as disordered as NPDers; not merely non conformists or idiocyncracies.

Why the apparent hostility? I made no unkind remarks about you.
Perhaps we can find some common ground. By 'normal' I mean those people who are basically of good will, who simply try to live their lives without causing others too much harm. A wealthy, well groomed man in a gray flannel suit might very well fall well outside of that definition of normal. A pierced and tatooed punk rocker might very well fall within it.

Here is a pointer that can be applied to phone conversations; since I have apparently inadvertantly aggravated you we have probably been on the 'phone' too long.

mud

[Portia]

Hiya Mud, thanks for the reply

Portia, you said you didn't conform unintentionally and then in the same sentence said you didn't want to conform. I can't reconcile those two statements.

Well I didn’t fit in at 5 because I didn’t react like the other kids (or that’s what I saw at the time). When I saw what the other kids did, I didn’t then want to fit in. I didn’t want to be like them – that’s how it seemed to me at 5. I guess I wasn’t being very discerning in my thinking but that was a long time ago! I think I could have conformed and joined the group, if I had been scared enough of being excluded. But I wasn’t scared of that, I was scared of being included. I stayed apart from the group because I didn’t like what I saw. I still do that. It’s just an introvert preference. I’m not unable to join, I’m not trying to shock and I’m not enjoying my non-conformity as such: I just like my own company and my own thoughts. It’s about me, not about what others think of me. Does that make sense? Conformity sometimes gives me the creeps – feelings of being controlled, imposed upon etc etc. I’m an introvert! I don’t live for relationships with other people.

About being harmed and abused, yep I agree it’s unhealthy, but I disagree about the general norm – I think a lot of people (I don’t know if it’s the majority, but there seem to me to be a lot) are in unhealthy places, just like I was until only a few years ago. Let’s face it, I was pretty unhealthy when I joined this board. That’s why I joined the board – I had just realised I was unhealthy!

Haha  I’m not sure today just how healthy I am either! Only partly joking, I hope you know I’m not annoyed/upset/angry/offended/pick-a-term. I’m just yakking as usual, trying to see different perspectives at once. Take care, P

[mudpuppy]

Hi Portia,

I know you're not annoyed/upset etc. And I wasn't trying to annoy anyone, but I often do without even trying.
And I surely didn't mean to criticise anyone for not being 'normal' or for not conforming.
I'm afraid I'm not too conforming to modern society myself.

I’m not enjoying my non-conformity as such: I just like my own company and my own thoughts

Well that's what I meant. Not conforming is simply how some people are. It has nothing to do with what others think, merely a personal preference. Just about everyone does to some extent.
Anyway as CeeMee has said we seem to be straying far afield from phone etiquette and and such.
Take care as well.

mud

[Hop as guest]

Here's my amateur theory to toss in the pot...
(don't worry anybody, even feeling hurt or offended can sometimes be helpful...it can be a clue to where some hurt is inside ourselves that we need to pay attention to, or a boundary issue, or something). We can't EVER control what anyone else says or intends and all we can do is ponder our reactions to it...or be curious and ask more questions...it's all just information!

Anyhoo, my little theory is: it's words. Some of the ones that appeared I think are unintentional zingers. Not necessarily intended to arrive that way, but in some sensitive ears (like mine) they trigger some little psycho-cilia that cause an emotional cringe.

Examples: normal, abnormal, healthy, unhealthy, weirdo, nonconformist.

They're just so...good/bad, in/out, right/wrong...you know?

I declare war (just a little ineffectual war) on "label-type" words that overlook the enormous subtletly and dignity of every person. I have been, in no particular order: an outcast, a neurotic, unhealthy, codependent, nonconformist, a weirdo, marching to a drummer that wasn't even in within 10 miles of the parade... I could go on. And on.

Believe it or not, despite its ENORMOUS value to me...sometimes I even want to set aside the word "narcissist". Only temporarily though, because that one's just about as helpful as "armed robber"--it needs to be noticed. Now and then though, I'm relieved when I can think of a N-person and have a moment when I'm just aware of some other attribute they have that's not that destructive illness.

I think words when they're piled up to describe layers of an individual are great. And I don't even care about all those above applied to myself, any more. But I know at times I have. And likely will again. It depends on how strong/fragile/defended/rested/pain-free/worried/peaceful I am at the moment. But some generalizations about people do carry that capacity to zing.

Words are just our shorthand for ideas we're trying to get out. No way to use them without falling short. But it's good to keep tossing them all around. And now and then pick them up and look at them really closely.

I think that's what everyone was trying to do here.
(And sure enough you'll catch me doing something similar with some billboard-word...let me know!)

Likely a very strange post, but I crawl around inside words doing poems, a happy obsession.

Pax,
Hopalong

[mudpuppy]

I honestly am not trying to be a wise ass but how can we communicate if we cannot label behaviors and attributes or even people?
The typical post would look something like this wouldn't it;

There are some beings who may or may not be called 'people' who behave in no particular way and which no one can really identify. Sometimes they may or may not interact with other what we might call 'people' in ways which are not subject to any particular description, but i'm sure you understand what i mean when I say its all very interesting. Some of these people may or may not cause other people a great deal of distress, depending on how you define distress, but there is really no way of knowing what may or may not have caused it because to try might lead to a label which would be really inappropriate.

I don't like inaccurate labels and I'm often guilty of insufficiently defining the labels I use, but how can we function or communicate without them? I mean to say, if someone objects to the use of labels, they usually have no problem labeling the labeller as intolerant or judgemental, right? Just about everybody uses labels just about all the time. Sometimes they cut kind of close to the bone, then we notice them and object because somebody made us uncomfortable.
Is there a person here who can go back through their own posts and not find more labels than  there are in their underwear drawer?

mud

[Hopalong]

Mudpup,
You're a goof, a wise wiseass.
Don't worry--I really wasn't trying to label you "mean" or judgmental...
I was just noticing how some of those particular ones would've hooked me too.
You're right it's IMPOSSIBLE to do a perfect job...words ARE labels and all we have to communicate with.
It's a hard art but a wonderful one and I'm glad you're out here practicing with the rest of us.

Yer weirdo pal,
Hopalong

[Sela]

All I know is I better hurry up and do my laundry.

And .......

I'm going to stop making those prank phone calls asking people if their fridge is running.....

(and advising them to go and catch it, when they answer:  "yes").

 

  Sela

[Portia]

Hiya Mud
And I surely didn't mean to criticise anyone for not being 'normal' or for not conforming. I'm afraid I'm not too conforming to modern society myself.

I’m glad you’re not too conforming. Balance is good

Anyway as CeeMee has said we seem to be straying far afield from phone etiquette and and such.

Okay. Back to phone etiquette in a mo’ , but two things:

Mud did you guess what I thought the Prince Albert was about? If not, best not ask.

Hi Hopalong
Believe it or not, despite its ENORMOUS value to me...sometimes I even want to set aside the word "narcissist". Only temporarily though, because that one's just about as helpful as "armed robber"--it needs to be noticed. Now and then though, I'm relieved when I can think of a N-person and have a moment when I'm just aware of some other attribute they have that's not that destructive illness.

Love it! And I agree totally. I get hung up on words too. I have trouble doing some psych tests for that reason (pick the two words you are most like – they have me in brain spirals sometimes). I used to grit my teeth when people would say “You’re crazy” simply because I didn’t agree with their way of thinking. Not as bad as “you’re evil” though. That’s just abuse. Anyway;

Phone etiquette

Hi CeeMee, back to the subject.

It is not acceptable to phone your daughter at 12.30 am (yes, after midnight) on a week day to ask if your gift to her has arrived in the post. Not acceptable  etiquette! Not even a mildly disguised attempt to grab attention. This was last night/this morning and I was not happy! Mind you, having an answering machine does help, but nevertheless, it is something no-one does unless there’s a damn emergency. This was not an emergency! Except to those people who are suffering a lack of attention in their lives. Oooooops. Sorry. Getting carried away there! Okay. Enough. Has any of this thread helped CeeMee?

Sela: you reminded me of an old Spike Milligan/Goons joke:

Harry: “You better put the dog out.”
Spike: “Why, is it on fire?”

*Groan*

[andromeda]

"In the past much of my social behavior was determined by my sense of safety."

What was the basis for knowing something was safe?  Did you find that you needed to be voiceless or censored to feel safe?

Listening to my gut instinct, more than anything else. Listening to my own voice inside myself, if I didn't feel comfortable saying it out loud. Closely observing people, but again, following my own instinct more than anything.

"How do I deal with people whose communication behaviors trigger fight-or-flight response in me, when I must deal with them (at work, for example)?"

Can you give some subtle examples of what might trigger a fight or flight response in you at work or in your social arena?

 :lol:I work in a busy blood testing lab - we did over 98,000 tests in November 2005 alone. I'm always multitasking with WAAAAY too many things to do. One of the 'heavy hitters' at my job has a nasty habit of yelling at me, sharply, in an accusing tone of voice, assuming I screwed something up. (Co-workers validated my sense that this woman was singling me out).  Never, but never, had I made the mistake. But, I'd be stuck in adrenalyned response, 'frozen' like a deer in headlights, for the next hour or two, mechanically going through the motions of doing my job and then getting the hell out of there when I was done.

Socially: this really messed up human being - semi-homeless abuse survivor, probably 23? - very good-looking - pulled the good old 'You've ever fallen in love at first sight?' thing on me. I froze. He had gotten my phone number prior to pulling this rabbit out of the hat. It took me ten days to get him out of my life...But I did. He also kissed me without asking or anything, just sortof did it (in a way that might have been considered 'romantic' from the movies)...all it did was freeze me.

I've recovered well in both situations: as I said about the boy, he's safely out of my life; and as for work, well, three weeks ago I finally talked to my supervisor about this old battle axe. Though the big boss of the lab didn't handle it perfectly, she must have ripped that lady a new one, because she doesn't aggressively interrupt my work anymore.

I guess I don't see myself all that clearly outside of how I've been negatively defined by others.  I carry that confusion with me every where I go now. 

This is really, really important, CeeMee...Sometimes I think that all the picking-on and controlled things I've lived through are written in me somewhere, like a code for other controllers to pick up on subconsciously.  Like there's a target on me somewhere, that was put there by others when I was growing up. Its really strange.

I am seriously thinking about quitting my job.  I've been there over 15 years and it is time to move on while there is something of myself to salvage.  Wow Andromeda, thank you.  Your post has really touched on something.

Get one of those Knock 'Em Dead resumee books. If there's one thing I've learned, I can always get another job. In fact, I'm in the process of trying to do that right now! 

"- attentive listening, supportiveness, and understanding (N-supply?!!)."

Are you saying here that these things can be N supply when we give them in hopes of receiving them?  I'm sorry, I'm not sure I understand.

No, I mean this:

One of the things that makes me a great friend is my ability to listen. I can REALLY listen. I'm really accepting and a very gentle person, and complete strangers come up to me to unburden themselves sometimes. Like, a varsity high school football player coming to my booth at a diner to tell me about how hard it is to take care of his mother who's recovering from a double mastectomy, and cries. (His dad abandoned the family). Anyway...I think sometimes I developed that because its what I always wanted, someone to listen to me share my hopes, fears and dreams. I still have a hard time articulating my hopes, fears, dreams, everyday stuff because my parents never ever listened to them...would tell me that what I was experiencing was 'wrong' or 'strange' or whatever (I think I was their 'alien baby'  ) and not honor my expression of my experiences...So, I give what I most want to receive. 

And I'm slowly learning to give myself that kind of listening.

My apologies for taking so long to return to the board. Its I guess not a habit yet? And also, since it nourishes me to come here, well, it's the last thing I'll do...(sad but true...not so good with the self-care am I...)

Andromeda