Socially Correct/Learning the Unspoken Rules

[mum]

how'd you get so smart, mud?

[CeeMee]

Thanks for those pointers Portia and Plucky. 

I'll put them on a post it by the phone next time I challenge myself to make a "just calling to see how you are doing" phone call.  I have thought about Hoppy's idea and think it is actually a good exercise after all to allocate a predetermined amount of time.  I'm starting with 10 minutes for the call.  I'll include Mud's suggestion to focus more on  the content and worry less about the time though.  (I was relieved to hear that the time frame you suggested Portia was two minutes to two hours.  I've done both).  This is my plan and I'll let you know how it goes. 
 
What happens to you on the phone?

Well it all depends on who I am talking to.   Truthfully, it is RARE that I am ever on the phone, so when I finally do make a call or receive a call it is somewhat anxiety producing.  When I am receiving the call, there is less burden on me because I figure they called and for a reason.  Once the matter is addressed, that is my cue that the conversation will begin winding down.  I'll usually let the other person bring the conversation to a close unless I have something pressing to take care of and let them know.

When I initiate the call, that is where the anxiety kicks in and if the call has the only purpose of seeing how the other person is doing, then I am inept at knowing when to draw it to a close.  I am concerned about whether she has expressed fully, if she wants to talk more, whether she expects me to reciprocate with information, does she need to go and hopes I will close it and so on and so forth.

Plucky wrote"

"You have the right to reject any attention.   You do not have to have a good reason."

"You belong to you, and you get to decide who gets access.  Period."

" You do not have to be nice to everyone, or anyone for that matter."

"You do not have to be friends with everyone, or anyone."   

"Not everyone is good enough to be nice to."

" Not everyone will be a good friend to you."

"Not everyone deserves a chance."

"Only a portion of the people out there are people that you should pay attention to or be nice to. Not all."

Wow, wow, wow, Plucky.  I'm still digesting all this.  I am really going to have to think about this.  Is this all true????? Does this apply to everyone or just male friends?

The part that I don't have to think about and do feel agreement with is that not everyone will be a good friend.  My experience has validated that statement.  The rest catches me by surprise.  I have gone from being a very isolated, anxious and angry person when I was chronically depressed, to someone who has opened up and tried to welcome people in.  I enjoy being around  people and discovering who they are.  I guess unless someone is downright rude or offensive (which is rarely the case) I am generally very open to people.  Maybe too open is the problem.  Maybe I do give off the vibe that "I will not refuse."

This maybe an area  I need to work on.  When I was depressed, I was a very tough person who always came out swinging.  Now that the bulk of the fear is gone, while I can still throw a very good punch when needed, I usually wait for a punch to be thrown first and I am fairly forgiving of mildly aggressive gestures.

Thanks Plucky for the feedback.  It is helpful.  I am interested in what others think about this list of "rights." 

CeeMee

[CeeMee]

Hi Sela,

Welcome to the herd!

Sela wrote:

Also, are you sure it's all your fault about the way men/women react to you?  Is it possible you've just run into the wrong men/women? (ones who are not interested in friendship, in a brotherly/sisterly fashion?).  It does take two to tango doesn't it?

I think there is a LOT of truth to this.  My experience has not been good in terms of the numbers of people out there looking for genuine friendship.  When I first moved to the community that I live in, I learned this lesson VERY quickly.  After making efforts to establish rapport with a couple or another person, it almost ALWAYS turned out that they were either trying to get us to join their church or sell us something.  There was always some Pampered Chef, Home Interiors or some other money making venture that my participation was required for.  Once it was clear that I wasn't interested in their church or buying anything, the relationships evaporated.  I'm not saying all people are this way but my experience is more than half are and the rest are too busy for relationships.  That leaves very few people left.  Like trying to find a needle in a haystack.

Thanks Sela, I am examining this boundaries issues.  I never thought I had a problem but now I am wondering.  My boundaries with my family are very clear but I have to put some thought about what boundaries do exist when dealing with  new people, friends, acquaintances, co-workers.

CeeMee

[CeeMee]

Andromeda, thanks for writing back.

Andromeda wrote:
"Different groups have different etiquettes. I move between very different social groups, and my work environment is something altogether different."

I think this is VERY true and like you, I do move between groups quite a bit.

"In the past much of my social behavior was determined by my sense of safety."

What was the basis for knowing something was safe?  Did you find that you needed to be voiceless or censored to feel safe?

"How do I deal with people whose communication behaviors trigger fight-or-flight response in me, when I must deal with them (at work, for example)?"

Can you give some subtle examples of what might trigger a fight or flight response in you at work or in your social arena?

"I also work hard to NOT TAKE IT PERSONALLY
This can be hard, because my Nparents treated me like I was invisible, or an obstacle, or a problem to be solved much of the time. So this is a background assumption of how other people see me."

Yes, yes, yes, there may be a similar underlying theme in me but I find that much of that came from work.  I am definitely invisible at work and a problem too and that contributes to my constant self examination.  Am I a factor, am I not a factor, am I causing problems, am I not causing problems.  Everything becomes a question.  I guess I don't see myself all that clearly outside of how I've been negatively defined by others.  I carry that confusion with me every where I go now. 

I am seriously thinking about quitting my job.  I've been there over 15 years and it is time to move on while there is something of myself to salvage.  Wow Andromeda, thank you.  Your post has really touched on something.


"- attentive listening, supportiveness, and understanding (N-supply?!!)."

Are you saying here that these things can be N supply when we give them in hopes of receiving them?  I'm sorry, I'm not sure I understand.

CeeMee

[CeeMee]

Hi Mud and thanks for your reply.

Mud wrote"

"I really think all this concern about how long to stay on the phone and what to wear or say at just what time is usually self imposed."

The concern IS self imposed, but I do believe that there are unspoken rules and to ignore them can have negative consequences. 

"Most normal people will make all sorts of allowances as long as you treat them kindly and with respect."

This is hard to apply unless we all have the same definition of "normal" and "respect"  My experience dealing with a WIDE diversity of people is that  "respect" can be interpreted differently.  This is where the platinum rule becomes important.  I agree that allowances are expected but we still need to know what the starting point is.

"Normal, decent people will return kindness with kindness.
Ns won't, but the unspoken etiquette of Ns and weirdos should be of no concern as they are self serving traps."

I'm not sure I know what defines a "weirdo," and I don't want to fall into the trap of assuming that the rules that I utilize are the only ones to be acknowledged or applied and that rules outside of my book belong to "weirdos" and N's.  There are   
people  who are just different from me and I want to know their rules also.

"That's why this so called platinum rule is such a strange idea. If we apply it to Ns then we become their slaves. It also can feed the worst parts of human nature in even normal people we interact with."

I respect everyone's right to use any rule they choose and I don't find either rule strange.  It is just a matter of choice.   In the worst case scenario as you have posed, I suppose we could also feed the worst parts of human nature applying the Golden Rule.  That would mean treating people the way I wish to be treated and that could mean MY worst wishes and desires.  As humans we all have good and bad desires.

Why I prefer the Platinum Rule to the Golden Rule is because it requires me to go outside of myself and acknowledge that people may want to be treated different from the way  I think they should be treated.  I think SF gave a great example of introvert vs. extravert.  It really forces us to find out more about each other as individuals and to proceed with caution.

"People put up with all sorts of idiosyncracies in others all the time."

Wow, that hasn't been my experience at all.  I find that most people are quite intolerant of people exhibiting difference or idiosyncracies.  Children start out young learning to fit into the mold or be marginalized.  The primary rule for social interaction is learn the rules and fit in or else.  At least that's been my experience.

The one thing I can agree with you on Mud (and I didn't mean to pick apart your whole post like this but I think we are coming from two different perspectives) is that content is important as is good will.  We are in agreement there, but I also think knowing the unspoken rules is important too.

CeeMee

[Hopalong]

Hi CeeMee,
What's popping out to me is your excruciating carefulness. You are admirably but VERY concerned with being considerate, fair, inclusive, non-judgmental, noninvasive, nonpresumptuous, sensitive, clear, correct, and so on.

I think the missing piece is: are you making any room for yourself to NOT know what is the perfect response at all times. Are you allowed to make mistakes? (I vote Yes, you are!)

I think if you added CEEMEE to this list of human beings to whom you extend such great (and kind) caring...and decide that you, too, deserve the courtesy and sensitivity of acknowledging your own fallibility and humanness, maybe you could be just a little less severe with yourself??

Would be lovely to think of you heaving a huge, relaxed sigh. Giving yourself a break.
You do deserve this.

You are doing just fine.
You are allowed to flub it.

Everybody does, in one way or another...you are not singular in your sense of not knowing.

It's okay not to know. Your intention is good even if you're imperfect.
All the moreso...

Hugs,
Hopalong

[CeeMee]

Thanks Hoppy.  I've often been told I am too hard on myself. 

I will cut myself some slack.

How's your job coming?

It is 3 am and I see you and I are both posting at this ungodly hour.  I can't sleep.
Thinking too much about work.  I really need time off to care for myself and then to find a new job.
It is scary though.  Haven't been on an interview in over fifteen years.  Confidence isn't all that high right now.  Time off might help with that. 

CeeMee

[Hopalong]

Job fear sure will keep you awake. Thanks for asking.
I'm surviving for now but the rug has been yanked from under me so I no longer take pleasure in the work.
My own responsibility is driving me to do a good job but I have zero faith that anyone here cares what happens to me.
It's kept me awake many hours and also triggered depression, so I'm fighting the same battle to take care of myself.

I am weary.

Met with an acquaintance who's a big N but I always was able to enjoy his intelligence anyway. He started talking about finding me a job in his company, and all of a sudden I felt there was a crocodile looking out from his eyes. I mean, I've been safe and comfortable as friends, since there was no power relationship...but when I caught that look (it seemed to be about the power he would have over me if he were to do me that favor) I went home and hid under the covers.

I think the best solution is to lie low, do the best I can here, and just plod forward. I've taken anxiety to such an extreme that I can't keep it up and keep functioning. If it takes meds, for a while, so be it.

Bah humbug. On the bright side, my daughter, who dropped out of school and went completely off the rails after her father died a few years ago...is graduating from college (by the skin of her teeth) Friday night. So I'm going to spend the wknd with her. She suffered a lot and this achievment was hard won. So that is a wonderful thing.

Back at it but thanks for asking!
Be nice to yourself.
Hopalong

[Sela]

Hi Ceemee and all:

I am definitely invisible at work and a problem too and that contributes to my constant self examination.  Am I a factor, am I not a factor, am I causing problems, am I not causing problems.  Everything becomes a question.  I guess I don't see myself all that clearly outside of how I've been negatively defined by others.  I carry that confusion with me every where I go now.  

I am seriously thinking about quitting my job.  I've been there over 15 years and it is time to move on while there is something of myself to salvage.

Since you feel invisible at work and confused about what role you are/are not having in "causing problems" and "everything becomes a question"..........I don't imagine you feel very comfortable there, at all, and it makes sense that you want to get away and salvage what's left of yourself.  That's a good thing!!

Just so I can go over there and give them a piece of my mind,( ) please tell:

Who is defining you negatively? (Is this person the body of knowledge of the universe or what??  Who says what they say/think/imply is correct?)

What are they saying?  (based on fact or opinion, judgement or some need to feel superior??  Specifically....what do they say that is negative to/about you and how much reality is it based on?)

What makes them a better judge of you than you?  (and how much of this negative defining is really necessary....in order for you to carry on your duties properly at your job??  Maybe there are other possible motives for putting you down???)

Why do you believe them?  (What makes this person/these people so worthy of your trust?  Why do you give them more power over defining you than you have?)

(No insult indended Ceemee.....just stuff for you to consider.  Sometimes we take in what others say without even considering this stuff and maybe it would help to do so sometimes??  Hope it helps a little).

Anyone who respects you and wishes to help you along the way to success will offer constructive ideas, in a kind way to you, rather than criticize or put you down or define you in a negative way.   That's my opinion, anyway (as a matter of fact...as soon as people start defining other people now adays.......it often sets my alarms off.... as it can be a BIG N behaviour ).

I really need time off to care for myself and then to find a new job.

I'm glad you are thinking of doing this for you!  Good for you!!

Haven't been on an interview in over fifteen years.  Confidence isn't all that high right now.

Would reading up on interview techniques, resume writing, etc and doing some affirmations, along with picturing yourself in a job where you feel appreciated and respected.......help?  Maybe take account of the good in you, Ceemee, your attributes?   Discard whatever these definers have tried to make you believe?
You don't have to take their messages to heart.

Conscientious people measure themselves and are not out to define others as some how less, smaller, lower.


  Sela

[Hopalong as guest]

Conscientious people measure themselves and are not out to define others as some how less, smaller, lower.

Thank you, Sela.

Hopalong

[mudpuppy]

Hi CeeMee,

Haven't got much time so I'll just reply to a couple of things you said.

In the worst case scenario as you have posed, I suppose we could also feed the worst parts of human nature applying the Golden Rule.  That would mean treating people the way I wish to be treated and that could mean MY worst wishes and desires.  As humans we all have good and bad desires.

Do you wish to be harmed or abused? Do you not wish to be treated with kindness and respect? Other than some truly disturbed people is that not how everyone wants to be treated?
Humans do indeed have some very foul desires but they are usually directed outward and even when directed inward are seldom if ever how a person truly wishes to be treated by others.
If we're talking about pathological people then lets face it there really aren't many rules. I didn't think you were referring to them. I assumed you meant interpersonal relationships with the large body of people who fall into that nebulous definition of normal, as in not total nutbars who are impossible to deal with.

Wow, that hasn't been my experience at all.  I find that most people are quite intolerant of people exhibiting difference or idiosyncracies.  Children start out young learning to fit into the mold or be marginalized.  The primary rule for social interaction is learn the rules and fit in or else.  At least that's been my experience.

Well I thought we were talking about things like talking too long on the phone and which side the salad fork goes on, etc, not non conformists who intentionally depart from social norms. Its been my experience that those idiocyncracies which are frowned upon most by societies are usually affected for precisely that reason. Certainly some non conformists don't conform because they can't or simply because they enjoy what they do regardless of its shock value. But once again I didn't think that's what we were talking about.
After all there' a bit of a difference between not knowing when to hang up and making prank phone calls.
Most people will tolerate an awkward silence pretty well, but they can get a little peeved being asked if they have Prince Albert in a can.

mud

[CeeMee]

Hi Mud,

Just some thoughts about your reply.

I would agree with you that people don't want to be abused or harmed, but when we get into words like "respect" what exactly are we talking about in terms of behaviors.  Is there one set of behaviors that apply to everyone.  I don't think so.  What I may think is respectful the another person may not be from their perspective.  I need to learn more and understand more about what respect means outside of my definition.

Mud wrote:
"If we're talking about pathological people then lets face it there really aren't many rules. I didn't think you were referring to them. I assumed you meant interpersonal relationships with the large body of people who fall into that nebulous definition of normal, as in not total nutbars who are impossible to deal with."

I believe it was you Mud who took the discussion in that direction with this comment in your previous post:

"That's why this so called platinum rule is such a strange idea. If we apply it to Ns then we become their slaves. It also can feed the worst parts of human nature in even normal people we interact with."

My only reason to go there was to follow you and point out that the Golden Rule could be equally misapplied.

Mud wrote:
"Well I thought we were talking about things like talking too long on the phone and which side the salad fork goes on, etc, not non conformists who intentionally depart from social norms. Its been my experience that those idiocyncracies which are frowned upon most by societies are usually affected for precisely that reason.

Wow Mud, you're all over the place with this one.  We were talking about phone norms, then you took the conversation to "the worst parts of human nature," "weirdos" and Ns and now you've taken it to "non-conformists"   Do you see some correlation between all of the above?  Who/what else falls outside your definition of normal?  Do people "different" from you fall outside your definition of normal?   

The point of my post was simply to find out how other folks behaved on the phone and to perhaps pick up some pointers on how they read unspoken rules.     

Mud wrote:
"Most people will tolerate an awkward silence pretty well, but they can get a little peeved being asked if they have Prince Albert in a can."

I'll assume it is meant to be a joke to take the edge off, but sorry I don't get the Prince Albert in a can part....

Is that normal?


CeeMee

[Plucky]

You guys,
don't fight!
You're on the same side!
Plucky

[Sallying Forth]

Yes SF.  I agree that there probably are different rules  or preferences depending on whether one is introverted or extraverted.    I'm trying to learn some of them.   If   
I called you on the phone after a long time.  How long of a conversation would be sufficient?  What would be the customary questions for you?  Would you expect me to know when you wanted to go?    Would you expect to be the one to signal when it was time to go or should the conversation come to a natural close?  If so, how?

CeeMee

Didn't answer your questions CeeMee. Was too depressed and sad to get on here much.

However I did find a book I posted on the What Helps Forum, An Adult Child's Guide to What's "Normal". It has helped ideas for nearly every type of situation and relationship.

This is what I wrote and didn't post because I couldn't function well enough to do it:

This actually happened to me in person with people at a church I used to attend. It had been two years since I seen anyone. For me, it didn't feel right to have these people act as if they now knew me. That for me was a boundary violation. BTW I posted this a while back on this forum.


I think it would depend on the length of time between phone conversations, the depth and length of the relationship, its current state - are we close?


I think the conversation would come to a natural close. Saying that, I don't know if would be able to tell when there is a natural close with all people. Most people it is very evident. Some it is vague. Again, back to the more you know yourself, the more easily you would know when to end the conversation. It would come down to boundary issues, time constraints, voice inflection, a sense that the conversation is winding down, a drifting off subject matter or the person might announce the end.

As for the depth of the conversation I think I would leave that up to the person the receiving end.

[Portia]

Hiya

CeeMee:

I guess I don't see myself all that clearly outside of how I've been negatively defined by others.  I carry that confusion with me every where I go now.

In some ways I look back and think I’ve been several different people; I’ve certainly behaved like different personalities. I can see now how they fit together, have been produced by certain sets of circumstances and how I couldn’t have been other than I was. I made lots of ‘mistakes’.

Who am I? I’m only just beginning to see myself anywhere near clearly (I hope it’s clear anyway). I’m only just now (age 44) making sense of who I became, given the genes and environment I’ve lived in. Who am I? The (current) result of all my experiences and thoughts. I'll be different tomorrow.

I understand where I’ve come from and that allows me to see why I am like I am. It doesn’t excuse all the truly bad things I’ve done (hurt myself, hurt other people) but it does give me an understanding of why. And it falls into place. There are always reasons.

A mistake is not a person, it is an event.

I do believe that there are unspoken rules and to ignore them can have negative consequences.

If rules are unspoken, we don’t know what they are. Clear, honest communication could probably solve half the world’s troubles! I can’t ignore rules I don’t know about can I? I need to know them to properly ignore them, in the sense of flouting the rules, or breaking them.

Here’s an example. I presume that it would be a complete no-no to post a thread directly to Dr G here, because it would be unethical for him to give his professional opinion directly to some anonymous person. But I don’t know that. Is that an unspoken rule I’ve imposed upon myself? Maybe. Would I be willing to test it? Maybe. But I kind of feel that this board exists because of Dr G and it’s unspoken that we don’t ask too much. Why? I wonder how many people would agree with me here. And yet it’s all unspoken. I could ask Dr G! Obtain the answer from him. Why not? I think we often accept 'rules' that are not really rules at all. 

All that last paragraph is about unspoken rules and self-imposed rules. Hitler said “What good fortune for those in power that people do not think.” It takes a lack of fear to question the unspoken rules, to ask for clarification, to ask ‘what really happened to me then?’. Many people are too frightened to ask those questions. Some of us simply cannot live with ourselves until we find our own answers. The short-term consequences can appear incredibly negative! Life isn't easy.

There’s keeping up the normal, ordinary, everyday status quo that drives some of us crazy, or digging up the ‘hurtful’, ‘dangerous’ (to whom?) truth which will free our minds.

Hiya Mud:

Do you wish to be harmed or abused? Do you not wish to be treated with kindness and respect? Other than some truly disturbed people is that not how everyone wants to be treated?

Nope! I wanted to be harmed and abused, once. Was I truly disturbed? Not enough to be locked up. Lots of folks are like that. Look at the kids who go out every Friday and Saturday night and drink until they throw up and pass out on the streets. They’re abusing themselves. Do they really enjoy it? Nope. But they would say they do. I did similar things to try and escape the contents of my own head.

seldom if ever how a person truly wishes to be treated by others.

I didn’t know how I truly wanted to be treated. I had no idea. When you're brought up by people who do not love you, you have no benchmark, no reference points. This is why women stay with men who beat them up – they don’t know any different. They think violence is love. I’m still learning to hug in a healthy way! It often feels soooooo unnatural.

non conformists who intentionally depart from social norms

Is that me?? I didn’t do it intentionally when I was five years old. I just didn’t know what to do to fit in. And I didn’t want to fit in! I thought most other five year olds were complete animals and I was scared of them.

Is the Prince Albert thing very rude???? It could be!      pleeease explain before my mind comes up with something very weird indeed......   whoops, too late   

with that in mind, better go