Not Being Heard/Acknowledged

[Jessica]

Hi Group,

Like many here, I am suffering in trying to heal from the recent ending of a relationship with a narcissist, but my question is not directly related to that.   I have a question that is very literal o the theme of the board (voicelessness).

Due to the some family dynamics of my upbringing, my self esteem, sense of worth, and confidence have suffered.   As a result I developed the feeling that I am invisible, or that my thoughts, words, opinions don’t matter to others.

This might be managable with thought correction, except for the fact that it seems to be proven true to me in my life!

I am okay one on one (though sometimes think I am not being heard by the person's response) but when there are more than 2 people present, I feel like nobody is hearing me.   I talk louder to try to get my point across, but it seems they are only replying to each other.     I have repeated myself 2 -3 times with the same point, only to have others keep addressing each other & not what I said.   After that, I become too embarrassed to try again.   I end up nodding "yes" to whatever the others are saying.  

It doesn’t happen every time, but quite often, in my view.    This feeds the self destructive thoughts of my invisibility or “voicelessness” even more, and I end up feeling depressed with my esteem affected, when I am alone after these happenings.   I am intelligent, with interesting enough things to say.     I don’t understand it.

However do you become heard in conversations?    Can anyone relate to what I mean?     Any advice would be very appreciated.  

Jessica

[Anonymous]

Hi Jessica,

sad that you end up embarrassed (ashamed?) after interacting.  

speaking louder and repeating is only likely to help if you had started out speaking very softly, inaudible or nearly.  If you don't feel heard the first time then repeating the same thing is likely to repeat the same result, not feeling heard, right?  why would someone hear you the third time but not the first?  Are you close enough, willing to be vulnerable with, feel safe enough with any of those people to tell them how you feel and inquire about their perspective?

knowing your audience by listening and asking questions (including questions to check if others heard and/or understood what you said) can be far more important than intelligence in general, or being entertaining etc..  

what sorts of people are you talking with?  if you were chatting with a bunch of old school computer professionals - programmers in the 1980s for example (my bias given I worked with such types) you'ld likely be the only one talking...doesn't mean they'd be listening though..  I've heard someone talk about their family's dinner table and how everyone is struggling to talk...no one pauses for a breath for fear the pause provide an opening for someone to interrupt them.  

being clear about purpose can be helpful too.   if we just want to be dazzeled with data and intelligence in general we can watch jepordy or read a book.   as R. Grossman writes about in his essay about being/becoming a therapist, there are subtexts in conversations.  my sense is we communicate about feelings most if not all of the time. Even when we chat about facts...what i find interesting i find interesting for a personal reason - we choose among all the intelligent/interesting bizzilion of facts in the world based on our personal values, experiences and emotional pre-dispositions.   sometimes listening for intent, aka listening between the lines, including listening to our own intent can be revealing...in other words are you really saying what you believe you are?  What is your subtext?  What is your intent in conveying what you are conveying?  Are you looking for recognition and if so to what end?  Are you wanting to give and get information? Are you trying to convey something about yourself and/or the topic only?  Why do yo want to be heard?  What sort of responses would you need from others in order to feel heard?

Are you direct? i have a harder time listening when someone talks around a point.  

Conveying too many details can be another obsticle to being heard.  when i am insecure about something i may give a bunch of details hoping that i can place the listener in the situation i am conveying and get their opinion without revealing what my assessment is.  if i don't say what it is i am seeking up front and they don't know what is going on they may wonder why the heck they are listening to a series of detailed events and their attention may drift.

Do these people you feel aren't hearing you look at you when you speak?  Do you notice their eyes begin to wander at some point or do they just look dazed ?  Are they making a loud nasal sound and listening to you with their eyes closed?  

Are you bringing up heavy subjects or always just skimming the surface of things and/or doing one or the other among folks who favor the opposite?

also paying attention to what you might be communicating via body language is key too.  are you making eye contact?  are your arms folded across your chest?  howz the ole breath?    Ah, what is that hanging from yer nose?  As soon as I removed the snake tatoos from my forehead yup, you guessed it... people took me less seriously.        

any of that helpful?

take care, good luck with your adventures in communication land...
acappella

[nightsong]

What Acappella said  

And also - a few comments from my own experience, hope that's OK?

Firstly (sexist comment coming up!) if the other people are men, they may not be that interested in what you have to say - women are for looking at, not listening to. Please note this generalisation does not apply to Rob, Alan, or any of the other guys on here - there are exceptions to every rule.

Secondly, my voicelessness has certainly had an imapct on how much I'm heard, and I am increasingly aware of how this works. For one thing, I literally speak very quietly, and sometimes have to repeat things because people haven' t heard me. Also, even when I think I've said something forcefully, I really haven't, compared to how 'normal' people would say it.

I'm very drawn to 'histrionic' people, who are often actor-ish. I think they express things in the way I would like to but don't dare. So I'm trying to learn from them. The old messages about 'Don't show off', 'People aren't interested in you' etc still pop up but I'm a little better at ignoring them these days.

Hope this helps - good luck.

nightsong

[Jessica]

Acappella:

Thank you very much for such a well thought out reply!

I think it used to be a matter of voice projection, but not anymore.  

I will give you an example of how a recent conversation went.

There were 3 of us present, and a work colleague was speaking about writing an important scientific paper.  He said he was having trouble getting through it because he kept checking his grammar & spelling while writing, and would lose his concentration on the content.    I suggested that he worry about the spelling etc. later, and just concentrate on what he wanted to say.   In other words, not to try to do both at once.    It was a very quick and to the point comment that I thought was a good piece of advice.    I would have appreciated it if it had been the other way around.   It was also not said in any kind of condescending way either.   The person also knows I have written several papers, so I figured in hindsight, that should have lent some credibility as well.    

Well the other colleague was saying something about the spell checker and some other stuff, and my comment was ignored.    I said it again twice, louder  the final time (only to make sure my voice was projecting properly) and they were still in the middle of something about spell checker computer tech. stuff.

I wondered if it was because the colleague writing the paper knows the other person much more than me, so they naturally gravitated toward a connection with them.   Don’t know.     I know one person very well, and the other only somewhat, and they are both nice people who  I can speak with one on one just fine.

I was talking with scientists, but this happens in all walks of life.    I notice when other people make one off comments they are usually acknowledged.    

My body language is good.   I’ve thought about that one.

What really does hit me, is your comments about


listening to our own intent can be revealing...in other words are you really saying what you believe you are? What is your subtext? What is your intent in conveying what you are conveying? Are you looking for recognition and if so to what end? Are you wanting to give and get information? Are you trying to convey something about yourself and/or the topic only? Why do yo want to be heard? What sort of responses would you need from others in order to feel heard?

I think I am often communicating with intent to highlight intelligence/worth, because I’ve always felt invisible and unacknowledged.   But at the same time I don’t go on & on with facts and fancy words.   I’m down to earth and to the point.  

The why do you want to be heard is a great one…    My answer is “because it will validate that I’m not invisible”!!!   I’d never thought of that, and that is a big realization.    Imagine that being the goal of my conversations.    Also, that I am interesting and worthwhile to listen to is another goal of my speaking with others.  

I will think more on all in that paragraph especially.    Yes, you’ve been quite helpful.   Thanks a bunch Acappella

[Jessica]

Also, even when I think I've said something forcefully, I really haven't, compared to how 'normal' people would say it.

I will remember that one nightsong.  I think I am speaking louder these days but maybe I'm not.

I sometimes notice when I give an extra energy push behind what I say, I get a whole other reaction from others.  I really see the difference so much.    It is hard to explain what I do.  It is all energy in quality and I project it from behind the words.   It is literally exhausting to do this though.   Can't keep it up.

thanks for your comments ...

[Acappella]

thanks for your comments and feelings too Jessica.  your being visible here and vulnerable and seeking truths and sharing insight helps me too to think and feel and continue the jouney towards living out loud.  

Yeah that subtext and intent stuff is powerful isn't it?

I’m down to earth and to the point.

Your down to earthness and being to the point is visible in your writing too as is your warmth and intelligence.  Just can't hide what is there, there even when no one is looking.

the other colleague was saying something about the spell checker and some other stuff, and my comment was ignored.
they were still in the middle of something about spell checker

Two things about the spell check conversation:
1)  well i think it is pretty danged obvious what that "spell check" banter is all about...I've seen this sort of thing a thousand times...clearly they are having a torid secret affair.  They otta just get a room...take it elsewhere!    Talk about subtext!     Ok, seriously now:
2) you say "something" about spell checker twice so i wonder if you were listening to what they were saying or if you tuned out as soon as you felt invisible and thereby sort of made yourself invisible because you then became unavailable to/disconnected from the conversation and focused inside instead.  Like an overactive immune system sometimes our self protection is what we need protection from.  

And that soft voice stuff also that Nightsong noted....I've noticed that when i ask for something at a restaurant (oh gosh just realized that is probably the only place I ask for anything....ponder that one later   ) i used to whisper and my voice still gets high with a sort of squeeky angst and an upward lilt - as if I am ashamed, frightened etc.  I got embarrassed when i first noticed what i was doing.  Embarrassment about embarassment.  YEEESH!  Self awareness just aint for the squeemish!  My husband jokingly immitated the passive request with a duck (i mean like "duc" like for cover - spelling spaz here!) as if i were expecting a smack on the head for making a request.  Funny in a way and sad in that voicelessness is really about fear and I did get punished for asking for something as a child and now in my adult relationships.  Like Nightsong noted about picking reinforcements for our tendencies.  A counter balance approach I like to picking friends that reinforce my weaknesses is enlisting friends in changing...where I used to live I had a friend with whom I swapped support for overcoming each other's passive or submissiveness or whatever.  I didn't notice my affect consistently at first and I liked having someone point it out occassionally.

highlight intelligence/worth, because I’ve always felt invisible and unacknowledged  

    lonely, scary, yuko?  I am sorry.  Sometimes I feel the world would be a better a place if we could just say, "I am sorry to interrupt but I have this overwhelming need for a hug right now and I can't continue listening until I have one please." or "What do you see when you look at me?" or "I FEEL INVISIBLE!" (shouted in the middle of a busy NYC intersection by someone wearing either very bright wacky clothing or perhaps nothing at all).   I know the feeling of living a half life and spending that half on so much assessment that I stop just being.   Partly perahps it is a matter of faith that much of ouself exists outside of our view and another major portion of our self exists outside the view of others. So we are never wholely visible at any one moment to anyone. So we just have to feel our way around in the dark.

validate that I’m not invisible
that I am interesting and worthwhile to listen to is another goal of my speaking with others.

 That sounds like a tall order to fill,a lot of pressure to place on a conversation and on yourself - it might just be so much pressure that it squeezes that part of you that just is and cant be denied right out of the spot light of your focus and thereby hides you from others?  

'normal' people would say it.

 you found them!?  i too have been search for those normal folks.    We are all so unique that while we share a common desire to belong how we do so seems to me the more I inquire (doing a lot of that lately) to be a matter of infitite variation.  

Take care jessie..l look forward to you keeping us posted about your discoveries.  WE SEE YA!

[Anonymous]

He said he was having trouble getting through it because he kept checking his grammar & spelling while writing, and would lose his concentration on the content.    I suggested that he worry about the spelling etc. later, and just concentrate on what he wanted to say.   In other words, not to try to do both at once.    It was a very quick and to the point comment that I thought was a good piece of advice.

Feedback: the colleague didn't want advice. He wanted empathy. In most conversations with scientists (a class of person I know very well), you must cater to their vanity like mad. They don't want suggestions at all. They only want sympathy and attention.

[Anonymous]

Jessica,

In some conversations, I find myself TOTALLY IGNORED. I think this is because (a) the people are incompatible with me in the first place; (b) they share common interests that I lack; (c) I am somehow an outsider to them. If this happens in EVERY SINGLE conversation, then you may need to review whether you are too self-involved, desperate, needy, or something. But I doubt you have this feeling in every conversation.

[Jessica]

Acappella,

2) you say "something" about spell checker twice so i wonder if you were listening to what they were saying or if you tuned out as soon as you felt invisible and thereby sort of made yourself invisible because you then became unavailable to/disconnected from the conversation and focused inside instead.

Yes, I believe this is an aspect.  When the "I'm invisible" "not worthwhile" tape starts playing again in my head, I'm sure I do lose track of the conversation, and way over focus on trying to prove this notion that causes me so much pain, wrong.  Communicating for the sake of correcting something, rather than for the sake of the actual conversation.  

That sounds like a tall order to fill,a lot of pressure to place on a conversation and on yourself - it might just be so much pressure that it squeezes that part of you that just is and cant be denied right out of the spot light of your focus and thereby hides you from others?

This could be, as well.   I know, without a doubt, that the way I am, and the way my focus changes when I feel invisible has to affect the dynamics of the interactions.  

Much helpful food for thought in these exchanges.   Thank you again Acappella, for your thoughfulness and your kindness.   You've been like a little angel    
 
Jess

[Jessica]

Thanks to last two guest repliers.   Last guest, you are right, it does not happen every single time.  Though as I am discovering from the other messages, i think I become too needy & self involved as you say, in the sense of  just becoming too focused on being heard & proving I'm not invisible or unworthy.  

Ironically, I think the very way I am trying to become visible/heard, is rendering me less visible/heard.   I have to change my thinking and my behavior, and then see what happens.

Thanks again...

Jess...

[rosencrantz]

Intent is also important, as is recognising the subtext - and so is inflection, timing and tone.  But they pale into insignificance beside the gender gap!

Nightsong hit the nail on the head.  Men and women communicate in different ways and want different things out of the conversation - especially in a work context.  I've been quite shocked to discover how true it is that a man can think I am 'interrupting' him or taking over the conversation whilst a woman would perceive me as empathising and 'cooperating' in moving the conversation along.  Women interact and make space for each other; men make speeches.  (It's not a criticism of either side - we're just programmed differently!)

There are a couple of authors who are really useful on this issue : Deborah Tannen (eg Harvard Review article 'The Power Of Talk: who gets heard and why' plus books such as Talking from 9 til 5) and Suzette Haden Elgin who invented what she calls 'The Gentle Art of Verbal Self-Defence'.

eg 'Men' don't respond well to being told what to do and don't ask questions in order to get advice.  It's cultural!  In the example you gave, he wasn't asking for advice.  He was having a moan, talking technology, etc.  

On the other hand, (subtext) you were asking for acceptance, approval and acknowledgement through your advice.   Another woman may willingly respond to that by being maternal.  A man tends to find it irritating or unnerving or irrelevant.  It's not part of the game he's playing.  Alternatively, he may respond by being patronising - and you really don't want to encourage that.  You're helping the 'experts' to put you 'in your place'!!!

Try the books.  They're really useful.
R

[Jessica]

R,

I surely check out these books.   The one "'The Power Of Talk: who gets heard and why" sounds particularly interesting.

I will heed what you say about the gender differences.   A very valuable consideration!   I can clearly see what you mean about men thinking something an interruption, whereas women finding it facilitative.   Perhaps you are right, and this was a big part of the problem with the example I gave.     It as a male & a female colleague, and I was addressing the male with advice (he may not have wanted apparantly).

Thanks much.   Again- will definitely have a look at the books.    After everyone's help, I now feel there is some hope for me to be heard yet lol...    I think it is a mix between internal things such as being aware of my thoughts, intent, and focus, and outer things, such a recognizing gender differences,  and other contextual differences.

Jess...