Urgent help needed. We are in the middle of the storm.

[SurviveAndGrow]

Hey Mudpuppy!

Thanks!

I am really wondering what I should do... 
How can I let things not to go unchallenged?

SurviveAndGrow.

[mudpuppy]

Well S&G,

This is how they operate. If you're not around they will lie about you. About things you haven't done and motives you don't have. If you just sit back with the attitude that your wife won't believe any of it, you will, we hope, be right. But I have had people that I trusted believe things about me because I had the "sit back and they won't believe something that ridiculous attitude". They weave a web of persuasive lies and the more one on one contact a member of their family has with them the easier it is to draw that person back into their weird world view.
If people are not drawn into the family dynamic they can think for themselves and see the strangeness of it, so the best way to challenge it is to not let it happen in the first place.
But if she does go, just be sure you are there with her and whenever they start popping off with their baloney, politely get in their face and use the truth against them. If your wife sees them abusing you for things she knows they are lying about she will hopefully see what they are doing.
I don't know how strong she is or resistant to them. She presumably grew up with them, so must be somewhat effected by it. For all I know she might be totally immune to their influence. But if it were me I wouldn't take the chance. Ns can be very persuasive, especially when left alone with someone whom they raised.
If someone is not drawn into their orbit, the truth will innoculate them against the N's lies.
If someone is drawn into their orbit, the truth won't matter one little bit.
The only way someone gets drawn into their orbit is when they have the chance to work on them alone. That is why they are trying to get her to come without you. Don't let it happen.

mud

[miss piggy]

Hi S&G,

Well, to "challenge" things said about you, you probably have enough material to review for common themes.  So you can arm yourself with stock phrases to repeat like a broken record.  The good thing is you can come up with something true about yourself without hitting them with a sledgehammer.  

For example, "you never visit us".  

You reply "We so enjoyed our last visit in Sept."

"Why don't you let her speak for herself?"

"Darling, have I said anything you disagree with?" OR
"Of course, I just thought it was my turn.  You don't mind letting everyone join the conversation, do you?"

all said with a smile.  There's always the standard "I'm sorry you feel that way.   I remember it differently (of course)."

When being coerced into some group thing or being asked indirectly to do something "Good luck with that!"

If it's awkward because there are "outside witnesses" that are hearing all this and you are trying to be polite, you can say, "Wilbur and I often recall things a bit differently."  or "if two people always agree, only one is doing the thinking!"  or "everyone is entitled to their opinion" or "oh, if you're going to bring that old shoe up again, Wilbur, let's make sure our friends have all the facts..."  whatever the occasion requires.  If you are feeling a little pissy, you can quote Gertrude Stein "tell the truth, it's easier."

On and on.  You can prepare yourself with calm & mature one liners at the ready.  My mistake was in not thinking ahead and trying to keep peace at a huge cost to myself.  

A couple of books that are helpful are The Art of Verbal Self-Defense by Patricia Evans and Stop Walking on Eggshells (I forget the author).

Hoppy: I think the lack of parent caregiving from Ns is just one more aspect of Me, me, me.  And me.  Double standards reign supreme in my father's house.  I get to, you don't.  You have to, I don't.  etc.

Hugs, MP

PS Just read mudpup's reply and he's right.  Sadly, I've had this happen to me...so here you go.  A few arrows for your quiver. 

[Hopalong]

Hi again,
I could be way off base on this, but here's what I think.
I think you should not attempt to go with your wife every time she interacts with her parents in order to defend yourself. I think your wife has to learn to think for herself and detangle from the family N-ism herself in order to make her best choice. IOW, at some point if she sees it for herself, she will make her choices. But I don't think you can micromanage this situation into health. She'd just be substituting controlling parents for a controlling spouse. The middle way, is she grows independently strong enough to make these tough choices and set these new boundaries herself. With you as her ally but not as her general.

I think if you try to control the situation by "accompanying" her every time she sees them, this is another way of not respecting her growth.

I realize you do take a risk in stepping back and trusting her to work through this process in her own way. But I keep thinking that's the best thing. And the most respectful thing to your wife.

However, at the times when you DO go along, I agree with everybody, DON'T "go along!" By all means when you are in their presence you want to deal promptly and directly with things in the present. You have the right to set boundaries around yourself, not permit distortions to pass unchecked, etc.

If you conduct yourself with nondefensive dignity around them, eventually I believe she will see where the strength and maturity is, and who's spreading poison and who's being mature. It's just not a choice unless it's her choice.

Make any sense?

Hopalong

[Plucky]

I agree with mudpup and hoppy.  You don't want to do it for your wife.  She has to do it.  But I don't think she is strong enough yet.    Contact alone with them could create problems.  So can you get her to stay away until she has gotten entrenched in therapy?
Plucky

[SurviveAndGrow]

This might be a good temporary solution.  Should I make an appointment for
both of us or should she do it by herself (By pushing her to get things resolved
I mean things like asking for us to go and get counseling)? 

We decided we would go together first in the coming weeks.  Is it better if she
makes the appointment for both of us by herself or it does not matter?  Should
I wait until she does it without mentioning it at all so it comes from her?  (And
I could go by myself independently if I wish).  This would be the ideal solution
from my point of view: She goes totally by herself ('Oh, SandG, by the way, I
went to see somebody today.  I think it is good.  I'm going back in three days.'). 
But it could take years and years and years...  And my IL's are pressuring her
to micromanage every aspects of our lifes and our children's.  And they are
relentless.  They are not waiting for anything to happen by itself...  They try to
get her buying a home and getting a job close to their home.  Really.  They
even want to do it for herself (buy the house, get the job).  Really.  It's not just
when, where, with who we take vacations (Though I think it is important too that
we can do this by ourselves).  It is on all aspects of our lifes.  They have some
kind of (fundamental) control already.

SurviveAndGrow.

[Hopalong]

You're doing fine and the urgency is clear and reasonable. What crazymakers.
I can't see anything wrong with you making an appointment since you say "we decided to go together in the coming weeks."
If that's so, then you'll just be following up on a decision already made jointly.
I would just be sure to ask her what days/times work for her, you could say something like, "Let's go ahead and make our appointment, what times are okay for you?"

That's better than telling her after the fact, I think.

Good luck! Keep posting.
Hopalong

[miss piggy]

Hi S&G,

Merry Christmas! 

You're getting good advice from folks here.  Hoppy makes a good point.  Go for it.  I just wanted to share my experience to give some perspective:

When I first started attending T, I didn't talk about my folks at first at all.  the major crisis was my psycho SIL.  But when I did talk about them, I felt incredibly disloyal.  Talking to outsiders about any family matters was always forbidden, so this new behavior, even in a "safe" setting, felt extraordinarily dangerous to me.  I had Paxil and Lorazepam to help me with panic attacks.

From what you describe, I do sense your urgency and need for change now.  But it will take time even when you get started.  But yes, I would second Hoppy's advice and set up the appointment asap.  Take baby steps.  One step is making that first appointment.

Your ILs sound incredibly toxic.  It's so unhealthy not to let children separate in a natural progression to become adults.  Your dear wife may need the attention of a physician as well since only psychiatrists as MDs are allowed to prescribe medication, not counsellors/therapists.  OK, this may be too much information right now, but wanted to give you a heads up on all that. 

Have a nice normal holiday!     Hugs, MP

[SurviveAndGrow]

You are all so nice.

I'll follow your advice.

Thank you.
It changes a lot to have you,
Have nice peaceful holidays,

SurviveAndGrow.

[Healing&Hopeful]

Hiya S&G

Merry Christmas to you, your wife and your family.

Sometimes it helps to write things down, and maybe it would help your wife to write down the things that she wants to do, then when her parents try to micromanage her, she has a list in front of her what things she wants.

Your wife is an incredible person, and it is very important to allow her to make her own decisions which can be very difficult for a bystander when you can see what's happening.  The others have given such fantastic advice.

We all hope to hear from her again soon also.

Take care

H&H xx